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Computers Not Working In Education

salimfadhley writes "BBC Radio 4's current affairs program 'Analysis' is reporting [realaudio] [txt transcript] on emerging evidence that computers have harmed, rather than helped educational progress. There is still much debate among even the most enthusiastic supporters of schools technology about how computers should best be used. Despite record investment in computers in the USA and UK, recent studies (not the ones funded by educational software companies) have shown a significant drop in core subjects (Math, English) in schools that place strong emphasis on Information Technology. Evidence also suggests that whilst information technology has great potential in the classroom, teachers have not yet found better use for computers than as a big library. Very few schools have been able to use the new technology for cultural exchange, or to build practical educational networks with other schools. Teachers do not know whether computers should be seen as an exciting but peripheral educational 'accessory', or if computers can actually be used to solve the most pressing problems of literacy and numeracy - the sorts of things that get kids through exams." The Economist had a similar article a month or two back, about Israeli schools that had similar results, along with an interesting comparison between how people see computers now, and how people in the early 20th century saw film strips in the classroom.

13 of 479 comments (clear)

  1. Not suprised by tgv · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'm not surpised. Schools tend to take away hours from maths and physics for teaching computer "science", so that would explain enough. Pity that MS Word is considered more important than algebra.

    1. Re:Not suprised by GreyPoopon · · Score: 5, Insightful
      I programmed in logo and that was totally useless.

      Have you considered that although the language is largely useless for building applications, it's a pretty useful tool for teaching children about how computers work? Logo is good at encouraging modular programming concepts, and is reasonably interactive -- perfect for 3rd graders. And it sounds like they did some stuff that a 3rd grader would find interesting, like creating shapes on the screen.

      I'd teach someone at that age Basic not Logo. In Middle School I'd move on to Visual Basic and or C.

      This plan isn't going to work for the masses. Yes, there are kids that can learn to program effectively in C during the Middle School years. But many of them cannot grasp it. Of those that are capable, many of them wouldn't be interested in programming -- they'd rather play games. There's a reason why advanced mathematical logic and proofs isn't usually taught until high school. It's because there are some significant changes during adolescence in the prefrontal cortex, frontal lobes and parietal lobes of the brain. The result of these changes is sharper focus and attentiveness, improved executive function and planning, and better spatial processing. Therefore, schools tend to avoid teaching subjects that require these skills until after most of the students are ready.

      This would be computer science and they'd learn a few concepts which might help them in understanding algebra

      While this is true, I believe it might be better for them to learn the concepts of algebra without the aid of a computer. I've found that among high school students, those that struggled the most to learn how to program had a weak background in algebra. However, let me point out that my evidence in this area is merely anecdotal. IANAEBIKMOT (I am not an educator, but I know many of them). :-)

      Computers should be used as a tool to teach math, not as a tool to teach Computers.

      I cannot disagree more. Students should be learning the foundations of math without interference from devices that help them perform the math. For the same reason, calculators were normally banned during my school years until students started doing trigonometry and calculus. This was intended to force them to learn the concepts of the math rather than relying on a machine. Want to see what happens when students start using calculators? Take a look at today's teenagers working a cash register who can't even count change back to you properly. I don't see computers as improving this situation at all.

      Teachers today treat Computers like they are mysterious

      I agree with you here. I think that perhaps the single biggest problem is that the teachers themselves are not familiar enough with computers.

      A web connected Tablet connected to everyones desk would be far more efficient than notebooks and the current tools, and a smartboard is far more efficient than a chalk board

      I agree with you here. This would be a tremendous advance in classrooms.

      you can learn math just fine with just a calculator, you can learn math with a computer

      As I said before, I disagree with this. Today's teens are evidence enough. Most of the teenagers I know are using calculators in their math classes and couldn't do math properly to save their lives.

      And before some fool comes and says "You dont know math if you use a calculator, you dont know math is you use a computer"

      The danger isn't in using a calculator or computer. The danger is in using one before you've developed efficient skills at doing it yourself. The best way to improve your math skills is to practice.

      Theres a difference between knowing math, and knowing how to work with numbers, number crunching is not knowing math.

      Although this is somewhat true, exercising your brain on some number crunching greatly improves your understanding and efficiency in mathematics. When I was in college, I received a dramatic lesson in this. One of my professors put up a problem that required calculus to solve. The specifics of the problem were dictated by the students, but we were left as a class to solve the problem. All of us had calculators except the professor, who was using a slide rule. He was able to solve the problem accurately on his slide rule before any of us could even finish typing in the numbers to the first part on our calculators. Even those of us with calculators that performed integration were no match for him. Why? Because he did large portions of the math in his head, only employing the slide rule where necessary. After witnessing that demonstration, I stopped using my calculator for all but the most difficult tasks. When I go to a grocery store, I make it a point to add up the prices of what I'm buying in my head -- just to keep my brain working.

      So, where do I think we need to see computers? We're already seeing them in use as a library of information. This is a good start. Being connected with people all over the world helps to break down cultural barriers, but I believe this kind of use happens best outside of school. Learning to program is an excellent idea, as most people will use it in one form or another in the business world. How about taking and grading tests? Also, computers are great for self-paced learning, and as such could be the key for allowing students with a wide range of capabilities to learn to the best of their ability.

      --

      GreyPoopon
      --
      Why is it I can write insightful comments but can't come up with a clever signature?

  2. its not babysitting stupid by HealYourChurchWebSit · · Score: 5, Insightful



    Part of the problem is that many schools are staffed with teachers fresh out of school themselves and put into situations that equate to nothing more than glorified babysitting.

    The real issue here, and this applies to whether or not we put computers in classrooms or force them to use old-school slide-rules, we've got to get back to teaching kids how to think, analyze and take some mental initiative.

    Unfortunately, this usually starts at home ... where we the parents are equally culpable for plunking our kid in front of the TV to keep them occupied while we make dinner.

    --
    --- have you healed your church website?
  3. Education is no different that other applications, by Gannoc · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Just like during the internet boom, you had slick marketers climbing out of their gutters telling boards of education that their miraculous software will help students improve test scores, learn faster, be more interested in learning, make them better citizens, and let them melt objects with the power of their minds.

    Of course, many of the teachers (just like many of the engineers in the corporate world,) said "What? I don't think thats going to work." but the school boards wanted their schools to be considered hi-tech, and it was an easy way to get more money for education.

    Now that this stuff has actually been tested in the field, we're seeing it all backfire.

    And all jokes aside, while technology teachers tend to know what they're doing, many other teachers were given a manual and direct orders to "teach using these computers!". Obviously, thats going to have a negative effect.

  4. In other news by Iamthefallen · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Ballpoint pens have been found to have no advantage over pencils regarding spelling.

    Calculators found to not aid basic understanding and proficiency in mathematics. (Yesterday I saw someone enter 150000 * 1 into a calulator, then write down the answer so they wouldn't forget it)

    It's a tool, just because you have it it doesn't mean you know how to use it. Too much emphasis is placed on the hardware in schools, too much money is spent on a fast connection, teach kids (and teachers) how to actually use them for academic purposes and you may see an improvement in some topics.

    For subjects such as history and geography, the internet really can help a lot. To teach spelling or mathematical skills, maybe some software can be of assistance, but only if people know how to use it. The computer is not a replacement for a teacher.

    --
    Wax-Museum Fire Results In Hundreds Of New Danny DeVito Statues
  5. True--they don't by xTown · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I used to work in a School District IT department. Computers were thrown at everything as if they were a cure-all, when the real problem was that the teachers were awful. It seemed that the ones who were yelling the loudest about needing computers in the classroom were the same ones who put up signs saying "Welcome Student's" and the same ones--English teachers, mind you!--who were saying, without a trace of irony, "Yeah, me and her are going across the street for lunch."

    We need to turn out smarter teachers and give them incentives to perform, like better pay, long before we think about having a computer for every student.

  6. Google vs. Academics by CashCarSTAR · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Computers are changing EVERYTHING. Just because we do not know how to use them does not mean that they are not effective. In fact, the main problem is that computers are close to at odds with mainstream academic thought.

    What happens when within 5 minutes I can gain most any knowledge I desire? Well..it kinda breaks down the walls, that is what it does.

    The problem with such limitless resources, is not a problem with the resource itself, it's a cultural problem. Our modern education system sucks. Absolutly, positivly sucks. All it does is turn a majority of students completly off of knowledge. It does not encourage the kind of curiosity and logical thought that make for an intelligent person.

    Our education system should consist of the basic fundimentals..Math general scientific method, language and grammer, and logical thought are the most important things we can teach. Everything else stems from these base things, and should be taught as such.

    Love of knowledge is the most important thing that can be gained at such a young age. We should not throw this away just so we can have good little Christian worker bees.

    1. Re:Google vs. Academics by HisMother · · Score: 5, Insightful
      > What happens when within 5 minutes I can gain most any knowledge I desire? Well..it kinda breaks down the walls, that is what it does.

      Uh, no. Within 5 minutes, you can google for any facts you desire. Knowledge takes work. Want to find a French dictionary? Easy. Want to speak French? Hard. There are many things beyond the basics that need to be taught rather than simply googled.

      But I agree with your basic thesis.

      --
      Cantankerous old coot since 1957.
  7. Computers are only a tool... by TheWickedKingJeremy · · Score: 3, Insightful

    As long as the focus is simply on getting "computers in the classroom" these kinds of results do not surprise me. For all the talk of quantity, I rarely, if ever, hear discussion on how computers will be used once they are in the classroom. Computers no doubt can, and should, play a roll in a child's education, but people need to remember that they are a means, not a solution.

    If you really want a better education for our children we should return focus on the basics... Math - Science - Language/Writing/Reading. Computers can be used when applicable to help teach these lessons, but otherwise are not particularly necessary.

    --

    my religion lies somewhere between buddhism and super monkey ball - pamphlet?
  8. Re:Good lord by Christianfreak · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I don't want to be offensive to you but I think that teachers and principals do need to see this. One of the things that is wrong with the current educational system (in the US anyway) is too many people are worried about keeping their jobs and not making sure that kids are properly educated. It becomes a huge political circus rather than a public service to better the next generation.

    Reports like this are a step in the right direction, showing teachers that Math, English and even fine arts are so much more needed skills than calculators, word processors, and MS Paint.

    *rant* Now if we could just get school boards across the nation to get their heads out of their collective ... well you know, and legislators to stop passing laws that give more money to districts where kids pass, thus encouraging teachers to pass kids regardless of grades. */rant*

    Back on topic ... don't get me wrong I do believe that educational software has its place. Personally I think its something that parents should have at home, or something that should be in libraries, even school libraries. Places where it can be used without taking away from the time to learn the real important stuff.

    My two cents.

  9. Re:Certainly hasn't had any effect on spelling... by registered_user · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I hope that spellcheck is comming soon to slashdot. :)

    Seriously though, I think that in the 80s a huge importance was placed upon computer education. The common notion was that everyone will need to know how to operate a computer later in life.

    Well, they were partially right. Everyone should know how to operate a computer, but for practical purposes in High School education, that's a 2 hour class with perhaps a semester course in typing.

    A computer will do much of the work for you. It will do your math, check your grammar, and allow you to do research from your home. The problems here are obvious. There is little need to do things for yourself. I've found that most children do not have the discipline to willingly learn advanced math and grammar on their own. The problem is two-fold here though because many parents don't have the discipline to discipline their kids.

    As for research, I'll be quite blunt. The net is a poor tool for younger students. There is too much opinion and just plain bull shit on the web to be of great use. It takes a more seasoned approach and a level head to be able to filter out the crap, and I don't think the majority of high school kids benefit by using it to do their research work.

    It's not a one-size fits all situation however, and it's difficult to administer a solution. If I were in charge though, I'd have one guideline: If your kid has ADD or some other modern learning disability that requires he get special attention in school, his computer access should be limited. Afterall, the kid's problem is distraction, so a computer (with web access is even worse) is definitely going to be a greater distraction than a learning tool.

  10. You dont know what you are talking about by HanzoSan · · Score: 4, Insightful



    I've never met a kid with "ADD" who cant pay attention to the television, or the video games, or books when they want to read them.

    ADD in school is just a petty excuse teachers make for students who rebel, they dont just want to admit that they suck as teachers, their classes are boring as hell and their students arent learning.

    In a class where a kid is not learning a damn thing or a class thats boring as h ell, suddenly the symptoms of ADD appear.

    I think if a kid really does have ADD the best way to deal with it is to let them use the computer, and let them learn in their own way.

    Also when a kid is on the computer, if they do have ADD even if they are distracted they still learn something, even if they go drift off into other websites as long as the school has things setup so the kid is always learning no matter where they go on the net, it can work.

    Dont allow any games, perhaps you shouldnt allow someone with ADD to go into a chatroom, but if they have a problem paying attention and the goal is for them to gather as much knowledge as possible perhaps the best way is to let them direct their own learning. Not everyone learns in a structured way, and the solution is not to blame the ADD, but to teach them in a way which they accept, even people with ADD know alot about certain things.

    --
    If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
  11. Good teachers.... by cvd6262 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    There is a saying in educational technology (yes, that is my field), that computers will never replace teachers, but teachers who know computers will replace teachers that don't.

    Well, a European associate turned that around: If you can be replaced by a computer, you should be.

    I started my undergrad in graphic design, and there is a rightly prevailing attitude in that field that the computer is no more than a tool, and knowing a few graphics program does not make you a designer. The same holds true in education.

    We have seen too many educational packages put together by business, marketing, and computer peopl,e and not enough with real instructional theory behind them. Most educators are not capableof that.

    Computers are just tools, and if they've failed, it is not the computer's fault, but the people who used them incorrectly.

    I for one am using computers to teach lesser-taught foreign languages (Arabic, Swahili, Korean, Chinese, etc.) to people I will never meet, and who do not have the time or resources to attend school. Computers have not failed here because: a) we are getting as good results as in-class equivalents, and b) these students would otherwise be left without this education.

    --

    I'd rather have someone respond than be modded up.