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HP Finally Reveals The Alpha Marvel

Posted by timothy on from the sequels-are-sometimes-good dept.

brejc8 writes "HP have revealed the new range of AlphaServer systems. The new EV7 processors show very reasonable performance figures. Revealed by the inquirer the 1GHz versions have very similar SPEC scores as the 1GHz Itanium 2 (INT_2000 of 875 and FP_2000 of 1,500). This is very intersting after HP were rumoured to ensure that "...no Alpha benchmark will be released until the Itanium platform(s) is/are faster"."

17 of 152 comments (clear)

  1. linux? by tps12 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Any word on whether these babies will run Linux? That's probably going to be the single biggest factor in deciding which 64-bit server CPU dominates the marketplace.

    --

    Karma: Good (despite my invention of the Karma: sig)
  2. HPs Strategy by jbischof · · Score: 5, Insightful
    I am very confused on why HP says "We fully support Itanium" and then releases EV7? This architecture is so fundamentally sound that it can beat Itanium 2 on core floating point performance.

    In my mind HP should either go one way or the other, not release a processor most people would claim to be better than Itanium. Why didn't Intel just buy the Alpha architecture and continue it?

    I know that AMD and Intel have both dissected the EV8 planned processor, and used parts of it for themselves. EV8 was going to be 4-way SMT (Intel uses that now as HyperThreading) and have integrated Northbridge on die (same as Hammer chips).

    Its a sad state of affairs when the superior architecture gets cut up and sold to different companies to produce two slightly inferior chips.

    1. Re:HPs Strategy by Chris+Colohan · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Before HP purchased Compaq, Compaq had already committed to selling EV7 systems to customers. HP would be stupid to reneg on those contracts and upset their customers.

      Also, when HP bought Compaq years worth of design work for the EV7 were already finished. Throwing it away would not necessarily be a profitable decision.

      Talking to the folks on the Alpha design team (now the Intel advanced design team), they were not super happy about EV8 being cancelled. But such decisions usually come down to money...

      The Alpha was in almost all ways a technically superior design to the IA-64. Now that the same group of architects is working for Intel, they can probably make the IA-64 run almost as well or better...

    2. Re:HPs Strategy by brejc8 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Big server companies cannot just drop products. There would be so much of an outcry that no one would buy the next range from then because they could drop that too.

      EV8 was a finished product when the lots of compaq hp stuff started happening and so hp wouldnt kill it of after all that money being put into it. hp decided to suck up to intel forever now and supporting the remenents of the alpha while it makes money is still a good idea to them.

      The last reson is that compaq employees would be a little hurt and dissatisfied if hp went along and killed every product they had.

      Its a shame that hp dont want to push the alpha and that it was a little delayed due to the transition. If it was released a few months ago hp would have probably kept the line open for a few years longer.

      --
      Mouse powered Chips, Open source Processors and Lego
    3. Re:HPs Strategy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      the next itanium will be better than ev8 for 2 simple reasons: ev8 doesn't exist; and it will never exist. process improvements alone are enough to be "better" than any non-existant EV8

    4. Re:HPs Strategy by Syre · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Trillions (yes you read that correctly) of dollars per day move around the world on VMS-based money transfer systems (before you question this, think again. I have managed some of these money transfer systems. Over $1 trillion per day moved in and out of ONE bank I worked at several years ago).

      Trillions more are controlled internally by such systems. VMS systems also still power major mission-critical business processes at thousands of companies.

      You don't just drop a user base like that and say "ok, go convert overnight to a new processer architecture". These companies have long-term plans and are some of the biggest customers for large systems. They have already spent millions of dollars and years of effort converting from VAX to Alpha, and they aren't going to be willing or able to suddenly switch to Itanium.

      For those who said "just recompile", they are missing the point. It's not just the programs which need to work absolutely and perfectly, it's the OS, and VMS on Itanium doesn't even exist yet. And once it does, it has to be proven to work reliably. These systems have to have PERFECT uptime. Sure, they have hot standbys, etc. but switching over and back is typically a painful process. Remember: much of the code which runs the world is decades old.

      If HP doesn't want to lose billions of dollars worth of business, they won't be pulling the rug out from their VMS/Alpha customers any time soon, and the cancelling of the EV8 could very well be their undoing in this market. Unless they are able to come up with an absolutely reliable VMS port for Itanium and rock solid porting tools, this user base will migrate to some other platform (at great expense and effort) and it may very well be something other than HP.

    5. Re:HPs Strategy by rodgerd · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Forget the outcry - most of them have contractual obligations. In the case of the Alpha, a number of Alpha based supercomputers exist where DEC/Compaq/HP have a contractual obligation to provide new generation Alphas with particular performance requirements.

    6. Re:HPs Strategy by Bert64 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The Itanium 1 was a concept chip, the second one was meant to go into general use.. it has failed, so people label it a concept chip to try and save face..

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    7. Re:HPs Strategy by SmittyTheBold · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The Alpha was in almost all ways a technically superior design to the IA-64. Now that the same group of architects is working for Intel, they can probably make the IA-64 run almost as well or better...

      The fact that you have superior designers working on fixing up an inferior spec does not mean they can work miracles. When you start with something that is not as good, you will spend a lot of time catching up - time that could have been used to better an already good platform.

      So, instead of a great Alpha, you'll end up with an as-good-as-the-old-Alpha Itanium.

      --
      ± 29 dB
  3. Alphas are great, but... by Peter+La+Casse · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Does anybody think that HP isn't going to phase out the Alpha? For some, that doesn't matter much, but I imagine that lots of people are going to be hesitant about buying into a system whose days are so obviously numbered.

  4. Odd reporting... by guido1 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    So first, the inquirer states that HP will be posting no perf. specs for the server until blah blah blah... (But in reading the article, it's "a guy who knows overheard someone say that they won't be posting...".)

    Later, it finds performance specs and posts them? (Without listing a source for those numbers...)

    Odd journalism to me... Sure, the Alpha sounds pretty good... But I'll be lame and wait for the official numbers...

  5. From the HP site... by rindeee · · Score: 3, Insightful

    "32-way systems will be available mid-2003, and 64-way systems near the end of 2003." A couple of things come to mind. 1. How will the 64 proc model compare to the new SGI Altix 3000? 2. Is anyone (now or planning to in the near future) scaling the Itanium2 up to that level? I have not heard mention of a 64 proc I2 production system, but then I haven't followed it very closely. Anyone have any info on this? Also on their web site "The next step forward in a long term future with HP". I would take this as an implication that they are planning on keeping the Alpha platform long-term (of course implying it doesn't make it so).

    1. Re:From the HP site... by rindeee · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Well, the first thing that jumps to mind is that a single "box" with 64 processors using partitioning is typcially faster (as is the case with the Altix using NUMA) and it is easier to manage (of course I say that having never touched either a 64proc box or a 8x8 cluster).

    2. Re:From the HP site... by nbvb · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yes, yes it is a lot easier to manage.

      And for the schmuck who said "Real operating systems supports Beowolf"... :
      a) It's Beowulf, not "beowolf". Check your literary history.
      b) Bullpoop. Beowulf's got nothing to do with the OS, and everything to do with the applications. You show me an Oracle that uses MPI or PVM.

      Of course! There's no need. Oracle already has OPS (Oracle parallel server). So yes, you can have an "8x8" cluster of Oracle nodes. Ever try to manage one of those? It's definitely a cluster ---- a cluster*uck!

      SMP is a beautiful thing. It's not exactly linearly scalable, but close. And the beautiful part is that if your app is multithreaded, it'll automagically take advantage of the SMP capabilities of the system -- no need to code to the MPI or PVM API's.

      Just for sheer "damn, that's cool" factor, think about this:
      A Solaris 8 CD will boot and install on a single-proc, 33mhz SPARCstation 10 from 1992 all the way through a 108-processor, 900mhz/each Sun Fire 15000.

      Now _THAT_'s scalable.

      --NBVB

  6. Real Life Performance by evilviper · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Just think... Most every task that isn't done fast enough today is due to floating point calculations, or memory bandwidth.

    Just imagine how quickly MPlayer/Mencoder could encode video on these new alphas... The specFP tests show the new Alphas better than double the performance over Sun, IBM, and almost double increase over older Alphas.

    You know... Something very new is going to need to come along before end users need more power than this for their home machines. Perhaps MPEG-5? Theora? Tarkin?

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  7. Re:I hope the Alpha lives by drinkypoo · · Score: 2, Insightful
    I have to ask, why bother? AMD's x86-64 chips will be rolling out in 1-2 way for Athlon XP prices (supposedly) and 2-8 way for ... well, at least substantially less than itanium2. Alpha may be great but is it really worth the lack of support which will come your way? And a board with a soldered CPU, I wouldn't buy anything expensive (as any Alpha-based system will be) that was made like that.

    I can't see any reason to use anything other than Hammer in the low-end 64 bit market, unless you're trying to have your whole shop be binary compatible.

    --
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  8. Re:I hope the Alpha lives by Best_Username_Ever · · Score: 4, Insightful

    There is absolutely no way HP will try and take on Intel or anyone else in the market for low-end single processor systems. For starters the Alpha costs a lot because it has been made with scalability in mind, it cant compete on price with an Intel chip. The size of Intel and the volumes of chips they produce means HP could not compete (seen AMD's P&L figures lately?). Micro$oft also pulled the plug on alpha support years ago, and windoze still drives the low end single processor market (despite all the hype surrounding Linux).

    Compaq were too scared of Intel to even remain in the high end market, where Intel are yet to make an impact. The competition is going to be fierce, it will be interesting to see if Sun and IBM can compete in the long term. Sun are already starting to look shaky, but at least they were willing to stay and fight. I think Intel will eventually push it's competitors out of the processor market, except maybe for a few niche products. The market is IMO a natural monopoly just waiting for one company to step up to the plate. The fact that Alpha is being killed just proves the point that superior technology counts for little.

    Alpha is dead, this is the last hurah in what was a very significant era. Great technology developed by brilliant technicians and killed off by incompetent managers.