Posted by
timothy
on from the no-two-cats-are-alike dept.
bbsguru writes "When Texas A&M researchers announced the first Cloned Kitty about a year ago, everyone expected to see a Multiplicity-style pair of cats by now. Not so! The clone is genetically identical, but in many other ways totally a different cat. This
CNN Story has details."
As expected really
by
terrencefw
·
· Score: 4, Insightful
I think that this is pretty much what we all expected... far more nurture than nature. Like the article says, it's the personality that we like about our animals, not it's genetic makeup.
As for the company which promises to provide you with a replacement pet which looks just like the old one, they admit that it's won't have the same personality. 'Scuse me, but isn't a pet that looks the same but with a different personality just what you'd find down the local animal sanctuary or pet store? (And far cheaper!)
-- Like tinyurl, but one letter less! http://qurl.co.uk/
Re:so it is not a copy cat?
by
frozenray
·
· Score: 5, Insightful
> Tabula rasa, people are blank papers when they're born. Our environment form us.
The extreme points of view ("blank slate" and "all in the genes") have been thoroughly discredited by scientific research. We are both a product of our genes and our environment.
May I suggest reading Steven Pinker's "The Blank Slate" for an intelligent discussion of the subject? The book is worth its money IMO.
-- "There are already a million monkeys on a million typewriters, and Usenet is NOTHING like Shakespeare." - Blair Houghton
I think it would be intersting to see if the coloring and pattern of the kitten was a product of it's suroundings before and during birth.
For Example, lets say the the mother cat was active, and the cat was born in the summer in warm weather. Would that make the kitten be lighter colored, and have thinner fur? How about an identical Clone where the mother was kept in a dark damp room? Would the kitten show up different because of the suroundings it was in before it was even born? (That is assumeing these babies were created, then artificially inseminated.)
To me that would be an interesting extension on this experiment. TO see exactly how things turn out. And maybe make a major breakthrough in how we think of genitics, and the possability of some other factors that have yet to be discovered in teh development of humans/ animals/ all thoes other things:)
Ohh, sorry about grammar, and spelling mistakes, I am sure their are plenty.
- Ice_Hole
-- "I couldn't give him (Bill Gates) advice in business and he couldn't give me advice in technology."
Linus Torvalds
To get it right...
by
praedor
·
· Score: 5, Insightful
You could do the cloning from the embryonic stage. If you impregnate a cat and let the eggs start developing, then select one or two embryos, split them into two (now half-sized) embryos, reimplant them, then let them continue development then you would TRUE clones that went through the same environment during development. The same burst of hormones from the mother at the same time, the same nutritional environment, etc.
The clones being produced of late from adult somatic cells are not good measures of the strength of genes in creating a creature/person. Why? No, NOT because of "nurture" being more important (it isn't). It is because the de facto biological environment en utero is different (different hormone levels from mom, different nutritional conditions, etc...no two pregnancies are the same in this regard particularly from different mothers).
Original cat biologically developed in a certain set of biological conditions en utero. That cat was also produced from properly regulated/formed egg-sperm fusion. Copy cat was produced from a somatic cell which DID contain mutations (inevitable given the basal mutation rate), many genes were silenced or activated in a manner totally different from a normal fertilized egg and all that regulatory machinery has to be unwound to get embryonic development going. This unwinding of regulatory mechanisms is imperfect - hence the MANY MANY failures to get a successful clone; the why behind the huge failure rate (added to mutations).
You end up with a disregulated genome in the embryo that is TOTALLY different than the properly regulated/prepared genome resulting from a standard egg-sperm fertilization event, coupled to a different biological environment en utero and you will NOT get a carbon copy. Can't happen, wont happen.
The time between inserting the nucleus from a somatic cell into an enucleated egg (the standard method of cloning in these circumstances) is too short. Those cells capable of dividing begin dividing almost immediately. There is NOT enough time for the somatic genome to be "reset" (if resetting is truly even possible) to a state equivalent to that of a normal egg-sperm state. Thus you end up with a mishmash of improperly regulated genes in the clone's genome - differences and problems galore. NO carbon copy.
-- In Bushworld, they struggle to keep church and state separate in Iraq as they increasingly merge the two in America.
Re:well...
by
Swanktastic
·
· Score: 4, Insightful
Look at how identical twins raised in different environments exhibit similar behavioral patterns, down to the occupations they choose.
The huge difference between twins and clones is that a set of twins experience mostly identical conditions during the gestation period. The same temperature, the same bath of hormones, oxygen levels, etc. It's not a huge surprise then that they end up looking the same, acting the same (within limits). A clone on the other hand is going to experience a completely different set of conditions, even if it is placed in the womb of the original mother (surely she has aged some).
In reptiles, the gender of an animal can be changed simply by incubating at a different temperatures. Sea Turtle's genders are determined by location/temperature in the nest. It shouldn't be surprising that these cats and thus humans would turn out to be radically different then based on their gestation environments. In fact, I'd be willing to wager this is precisely why the cloned calico turned out to be gray...
Pseudo Immortaltiy
by
Myriad
·
· Score: 4, Insightful
However, another much better method is this: Make a clone of John, keep its brain blank as you grow it (maybe in an accelerated fashion) to John's size, and then transfer John's thoughts to that clone. Of course that requires very advanced brain knowledge to "read" and "write" a brain - assuming that's even possible.
But that would give you immortality (so long as you keep your brain safe).
This would only give you pseudo immortality. Consider:
You have the original and make a copy of it, then place the copy into the new body. For a brief period there are now two copies of you.
Here's the catch, the original still dies. Meaning you still die, but a backup lives on.
Personally I'm not sure I like that a whole lot. It might be nice to know that my personality will go on, but it still is not me.
The only way I can see this sort of working is if the mind is transfered rather than copied. Then, arguably, the original doesn't have to die as well. Though this transfer would likely be a copy and wipe, which has the same problem as above.
-- "They do not preach that their god will rouse them, a little before the Nuts work loose." Kipling, 'The Sons of Martha'
Re:Pseudo Immortaltiy
by
mdwh2
·
· Score: 4, Insightful
This would only give you pseudo immortality. Consider: You have the original and make a copy of it, then place the copy into the new body. For a brief period there are now two copies of you. Here's the catch, the original still dies. Meaning you still die, but a backup lives on.
I think this is an interesting idea, and I think the answers depend a lot on the nature of consciousness, and whether there is any such thing as a "soul".
The point is that to everyone else, the backup would seem identical to you. Moreover, the backup would claim that he was you - as far he is concerned, he has been brought back to life. The "original" you will never know having died (assuming one doesn't believe in an afterlife). Things are a little more confusing after duplication but before one has died; you'll have two people both insisting they are the 'original' (and in some sense, they are both right). From that instant on, they'll diverge and be different people, of course.
Consider - it could be that every night I go to sleep, "I" die, and it's a different "me" that wakes up the next morning. But unless anyone (the "me" today, the "me" tomorrow, or anyone else) could have any way tell any difference, to me it seems meaningless to say that something has died. It could be that "I" die every nanosecond - it could be that the only way to define continuity of consciousness is in terms of memories and brain activity.
If one doesn't believe in some continuous entity like a soul (as I don't), then the "me" as used in this context is meaningless.
You say that transferring could work - but how is transferring different to a copy-and-delete? (I guess, again, it depends on whether one believes in some unique un-copyable property of physical particles).
It's a similar idea with teleporting Star-trek style. If any such technologies ever appear, I agree that people would be wary (I mean, *I* would be too, despite what I believe). But after a few people have tried it, people would gradually see that it "works" (rightly or wrongly), and it could well be that it becomes commonplace, apart from a few who resist.
Re:so it is not a copy cat?
by
Anonymous Coward
·
· Score: 5, Insightful
Rainbow is reserved. Cc is curious and playful. Rainbow is chunky. Cc is sleek.
Hardly surprising. My translation is:
Rainbow is an old cat. Cc is a kitten. Rainbow is chunky. Cc is still growing.
What makes you? Souls, etc
by
phorm
·
· Score: 4, Insightful
Which brings in a big debate over cloning and just what makes a person, well, a person. If you have a soul... would a clone be born with a soul? If you were brain-copied over to the clone, does that clone inherit your soul as well? If you original body dies... what goes to heaven/hell? What really defines you.
Yeah, I think cloning really scares the crap outta a lot of religious people, especially with the concept of having a lot of soulless clones.
That being said though, even if you copied the "memories", a lot of the way a body works depends on how it has grown. John Doe "A" may be 5'8" tall, with a slight case of asmthma from living near the local carcinogen plant, etc etc. John Doe "B" would grow up with different ailments, and probably a different biochemical pattern within his body. A lot of how we work is in our hormonal, etc, balances.
So, even if there were no soul issue, growing a new John Doe "B" from DNA of John Doe "A" (or a new fluffy the kitten), will not create an exact replica.
This difference points to a belief I've held for a long time. Cloning is nothing to worry about
The idea that genetics determines everything is simplistically appealing. It also ignores most of modern biological science. Genetics just doesn't work the way the average Fox News viewer thinks it does.
Here are my main tenets why you shouldn't fear cloning any more than any other form of reproductive assistance.
1. Proteomics (http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proteomics) Humans have about 30,000 genes but over 200,000 proteins encoded by those genes. Proteins are what carry out the life processes. Proteomics is extremely complicated and it's effects and actions change depending on the part of the body and the stage of life.
2. Complex Systems - Now that we've got over the genetic determination bias, we have to deal with the incredibly complex interactions of proteins. We're just beginning to understand proteomics, but it's likely that random or at least stochastic variation plays a large role in how the genes build you and me. Studies of complex systems indicate that small fluctuations can have big changes and big fluctuations can have small changes. This gives me the belief (not knowledge mind you, but belief) that cloning will end up with a very similar individual that still remains unique.
3. Tendency Away from Extremes. I've noticed over time that the things society in general gets all worked up about generally turn out to be much less of a problem or as extreme than was expected or feared. While this is not a proof of anything (look at Hitler who ended up the opposite) it general holds true. Killer bees did not wipe out Texas, and the Internet did not save the world, at least as fast as it was supposed to.
Cloning will have it's controversies but after the first few clones have grown up (and Raelians or not, people will be cloned) we'll realize that they're no more a threat or abomination than twins, and possibly less interesting.
The fear over cloning is another example of what happens when people take half-truths and try for the simple explanation.
Slashdot Mirror
As for the company which promises to provide you with a replacement pet which looks just like the old one, they admit that it's won't have the same personality. 'Scuse me, but isn't a pet that looks the same but with a different personality just what you'd find down the local animal sanctuary or pet store? (And far cheaper!)
Like tinyurl, but one letter less! http://qurl.co.uk/
> Tabula rasa, people are blank papers when they're born. Our environment form us.
The extreme points of view ("blank slate" and "all in the genes") have been thoroughly discredited by scientific research. We are both a product of our genes and our environment.
May I suggest reading Steven Pinker's "The Blank Slate" for an intelligent discussion of the subject? The book is worth its money IMO.
"There are already a million monkeys on a million typewriters, and Usenet is NOTHING like Shakespeare." - Blair Houghton
I think it would be intersting to see if the coloring and pattern of the kitten was a product of it's suroundings before and during birth.
:)
For Example, lets say the the mother cat was active, and the cat was born in the summer in warm weather. Would that make the kitten be lighter colored, and have thinner fur? How about an identical Clone where the mother was kept in a dark damp room? Would the kitten show up different because of the suroundings it was in before it was even born? (That is assumeing these babies were created, then artificially inseminated.)
To me that would be an interesting extension on this experiment. TO see exactly how things turn out. And maybe make a major breakthrough in how we think of genitics, and the possability of some other factors that have yet to be discovered in teh development of humans/ animals/ all thoes other things
Ohh, sorry about grammar, and spelling mistakes, I am sure their are plenty.
- Ice_Hole
"I couldn't give him (Bill Gates) advice in business and he couldn't give me advice in technology." Linus Torvalds
You could do the cloning from the embryonic stage. If you impregnate a cat and let the eggs start developing, then select one or two embryos, split them into two (now half-sized) embryos, reimplant them, then let them continue development then you would TRUE clones that went through the same environment during development. The same burst of hormones from the mother at the same time, the same nutritional environment, etc.
The clones being produced of late from adult somatic cells are not good measures of the strength of genes in creating a creature/person. Why? No, NOT because of "nurture" being more important (it isn't). It is because the de facto biological environment en utero is different (different hormone levels from mom, different nutritional conditions, etc...no two pregnancies are the same in this regard particularly from different mothers).
Original cat biologically developed in a certain set of biological conditions en utero. That cat was also produced from properly regulated/formed egg-sperm fusion. Copy cat was produced from a somatic cell which DID contain mutations (inevitable given the basal mutation rate), many genes were silenced or activated in a manner totally different from a normal fertilized egg and all that regulatory machinery has to be unwound to get embryonic development going. This unwinding of regulatory mechanisms is imperfect - hence the MANY MANY failures to get a successful clone; the why behind the huge failure rate (added to mutations).
You end up with a disregulated genome in the embryo that is TOTALLY different than the properly regulated/prepared genome resulting from a standard egg-sperm fertilization event, coupled to a different biological environment en utero and you will NOT get a carbon copy. Can't happen, wont happen.
The time between inserting the nucleus from a somatic cell into an enucleated egg (the standard method of cloning in these circumstances) is too short. Those cells capable of dividing begin dividing almost immediately. There is NOT enough time for the somatic genome to be "reset" (if resetting is truly even possible) to a state equivalent to that of a normal egg-sperm state. Thus you end up with a mishmash of improperly regulated genes in the clone's genome - differences and problems galore. NO carbon copy.
In Bushworld, they struggle to keep church and state separate in Iraq as they increasingly merge the two in America.
Look at how identical twins raised in different environments exhibit similar behavioral patterns, down to the occupations they choose.
The huge difference between twins and clones is that a set of twins experience mostly identical conditions during the gestation period. The same temperature, the same bath of hormones, oxygen levels, etc. It's not a huge surprise then that they end up looking the same, acting the same (within limits). A clone on the other hand is going to experience a completely different set of conditions, even if it is placed in the womb of the original mother (surely she has aged some).
In reptiles, the gender of an animal can be changed simply by incubating at a different temperatures. Sea Turtle's genders are determined by location/temperature in the nest. It shouldn't be surprising that these cats and thus humans would turn out to be radically different then based on their gestation environments. In fact, I'd be willing to wager this is precisely why the cloned calico turned out to be gray...
This would only give you pseudo immortality. Consider:
You have the original and make a copy of it, then place the copy into the new body. For a brief period there are now two copies of you.
Here's the catch, the original still dies. Meaning you still die, but a backup lives on.
Personally I'm not sure I like that a whole lot. It might be nice to know that my personality will go on, but it still is not me.
The only way I can see this sort of working is if the mind is transfered rather than copied. Then, arguably, the original doesn't have to die as well. Though this transfer would likely be a copy and wipe, which has the same problem as above.
"They do not preach that their god will rouse them, a little before the Nuts work loose." Kipling, 'The Sons of Martha'
Rainbow is reserved. Cc is curious and playful. Rainbow is chunky. Cc is sleek.
Hardly surprising. My translation is:
Rainbow is an old cat. Cc is a kitten. Rainbow is chunky. Cc is still growing.
Which brings in a big debate over cloning and just what makes a person, well, a person. If you have a soul... would a clone be born with a soul? If you were brain-copied over to the clone, does that clone inherit your soul as well? If you original body dies... what goes to heaven/hell? What really defines you.
Yeah, I think cloning really scares the crap outta a lot of religious people, especially with the concept of having a lot of soulless clones.
That being said though, even if you copied the "memories", a lot of the way a body works depends on how it has grown. John Doe "A" may be 5'8" tall, with a slight case of asmthma from living near the local carcinogen plant, etc etc. John Doe "B" would grow up with different ailments, and probably a different biochemical pattern within his body. A lot of how we work is in our hormonal, etc, balances.
So, even if there were no soul issue, growing a new John Doe "B" from DNA of John Doe "A" (or a new fluffy the kitten), will not create an exact replica.
This difference points to a belief I've held for a long time. Cloning is nothing to worry about
s have about 30,000 genes but over 200,000 proteins encoded by those genes. Proteins are what carry out the life processes. Proteomics is extremely complicated and it's effects and actions change depending on the part of the body and the stage of life.
The idea that genetics determines everything is simplistically appealing. It also ignores most of modern biological science. Genetics just doesn't work the way the average Fox News viewer thinks it does.
Here are my main tenets why you shouldn't fear cloning any more than any other form of reproductive assistance.
1. Proteomics (http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proteomics)
Human
2. Complex Systems - Now that we've got over the genetic determination bias, we have to deal with the incredibly complex interactions of proteins. We're just beginning to understand proteomics, but it's likely that random or at least stochastic variation plays a large role in how the genes build you and me. Studies of complex systems indicate that small fluctuations can have big changes and big fluctuations can have small changes. This gives me the belief (not knowledge mind you, but belief) that cloning will end up with a very similar individual that still remains unique.
3. Tendency Away from Extremes.
I've noticed over time that the things society in general gets all worked up about generally turn out to be much less of a problem or as extreme than was expected or feared. While this is not a proof of anything (look at Hitler who ended up the opposite) it general holds true. Killer bees did not wipe out Texas, and the Internet did not save the world, at least as fast as it was supposed to.
Cloning will have it's controversies but after the first few clones have grown up (and Raelians or not, people will be cloned) we'll realize that they're no more a threat or abomination than twins, and possibly less interesting.
The fear over cloning is another example of what happens when people take half-truths and try for the simple explanation.