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McVoy on BitKeeper, Linus, and Perens

Joe Barr writes "The story of how BitKeeper has come to be Linus Torvalds' (and many other kernel hackers) tool of choice in maintaining the Linux development tree is worthy of a book. Here's the Cliff Note's version of McVoy's contribution to Linux kernel development, BitKeeper, and countless hours of flaming on the role of open source and proprietary software."

8 of 40 comments (clear)

  1. surely you must be joking by j.e.hahn · · Score: 4, Insightful

    1) It doesn't matter what soource control system you use, you still own your own code. If the company making the source control product goes nuts, then you just have to abandon them.

    2) The best tool for the job mentality comes from long experience with inadequate tools. All too often people come along saying "Here use the screwdriver. I know you need a hammer, but at least my screwdriver is ethically pure." Open Source tools are a good thing. They are not always the best fit.

    3) Free software is NOT always the best option. Especially for large businesses which are concerned about the potential license taint and support issues. I love Free Software, but it's not always the right fit.

    4) There are 2 free alternatives to bitkeeper: CVS and Subversion. Learn them, use them.

    1. Re:surely you must be joking by JimDabell · · Score: 3, Insightful
      It doesn't matter what soource control system you use, you still own your own code. If the company making the source control product goes nuts, then you just have to abandon them.

      Exactly. You have to put time & effort into evaluating other tools, learning whatever you decide upon, and transferring your code over to that system. Most of the time, you cannot transfer the repositories between different systems, only the current code.

      If the vendor is showing signs of "going nuts", it would be silly to start to use their tools. Some people would argue that the recent licensing silliness with bitkeeper is a danger sign, but I don't want to get into that argument.

      Free software is NOT always the best option.

      All other things being equal, I would disagree. All other things are not usually equal, however, so you have to decide on a case-by-case basis. A free alternative is always a good thing, even if you don't use it, it keeps the proprietary vendors on their toes.

      Especially for large businesses which are concerned about the potential license taint

      License taint? Your code is not a derivative of the version control system you use, there is no tainting issue. The common open-source licenses have no usage restrictions, unlike bitkeeper's license.

      and support issues.

      Open vs proprietary support issues have been discussed over and over. Companies support free software, companies support proprietary software. You have a choice of which companies you go to with open-source software, you don't with proprietary software. There's no issue here.

    2. Re:surely you must be joking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      1) It doesn't matter what soource control system you use, you still own your own code. If the company making the source control product goes nuts, then you just have to abandon them.

      That's not the point, the point is your code is STORED INSIDE the product. So if you switch, you have to start from scratch on a new product. You don't just "abandon it" you have to pay time (i.e. money) to switch. This is true for any proprietary system.

      3) Free software is NOT always the best option. Especially for large businesses which are concerned about the potential license taint and support issues. I love Free Software, but it's not always the right fit.

      You love it so much that you spread lies about it? If you're not incorporating the Free software into your own product, there is no more license taint than using a proprietary system (in fact, there is less risk because freedom to use is guaranteed). And many Free licenses, such as BSD, "taint" your project only in the most minimal way, even if you distribute.

      So, let's see you ship a gratis copy of MS SQL server with each unit of your next product, and then let's talk about "license taint" (when you're through with the lawsuits of course).

      4) There are 2 free alternatives to bitkeeper: CVS and Subversion. Learn them, use them.

      Good advice, and let's add one more: IMPROVE them!

    3. Re:surely you must be joking by Anonymous+Conrad · · Score: 2, Insightful
      That's not the point, the point is your code is STORED INSIDE the product. So if you switch, you have to start from scratch on a new product. You don't just "abandon it" you have to pay time (i.e. money) to switch. This is true for any proprietary system.

      I don't follow your argument.

      OK, it's stored inside. But to eat your code completely they'd have to:
      1. switch off their product overnight giving you no notice to export your source / history
      2. delete all your working copies on developer machines
      3. delete all your daily backups of the working copies.
      If they can (legally) pull of the first you'll lose at your revision history but there's no way you're going to lose your source.

      If you're not incorporating the Free software into your own product, there is no more license taint than using a proprietary system

      The GPL has never (AFAIK) been tested in court and it's open to some interpretation - all the arguments about the definition of 'link'. That's why businesses are nervous about using it. IMO, it's up to the FSF to nail down the definition to make businesses happy.

      So, let's see you ship a gratis copy of MS SQL server with each unit of your next product, and then let's talk about "license taint" (when you're through with the lawsuits of course).

      But they provide MSDE, a redistributable SQL server core, specifically for that. The licence says:
      1. no Microsoft endorsement (c.f. Apache licence)
      2. may not sue Microsoft (i.e. no warranty c.f. any free software licence)
      3. may not use in a competitor to Microsoft Office.
      That's not too bad, is it?
  2. Paradigms are achangin', hold on tight! by stienman · · Score: 4, Insightful
    There are a ton of issues wrapped up in this whole bitkeeper saga:
    • Proprietary vs Open
    • Cost vs Free
    • Freedom vs Artificial Restrictions
    • 'Best Tool for the Job vs Ideal Choice
    • Long Term Investment vs Rapid Development
    And that's just scratching the surface. There are valid reasons for choosing one path or another. This article is enlightening in that we now have a face and series of reasons as to why McVoy chose to implement Bitkeeper as a company with a business plan that closely resembles common closed source companies.

    We also have some enlightenment as to how and why Linus chose to move to bitkeeper.

    McVoy said, "Hey, Linus, let's work out the system for the 'best tool' to help you do your work." They came up with a rough specification, and McVoy has used that data specifically to create a profitable product, which (he claims) Linus started using spontaneously. The fact that it's almost exactly what Linus needs is by design from the start.

    People who are up in arms about it being developed as proprietary software are complaining about the wrong thing. McVoy used his connections to gather information for a product which turned out to be a killer app in the area of source management. The fact that he's letting open source people use it for free is no more philanthropic than Microsoft donating software to universities at a reduced rate - it's another business decision.

    What open source advocates ought to be up in arms about is, "Why don't we have an open source product that rivals bitkeeper in its scalability?" The answer is that we've long had tools that were 'good enough', and we've never had a project nearly as large and complex with so many developers and scalability issues as Linux itself has that has justified 3 years of its own development.

    We've just added another crutch to the tired old horse that is source management, and said, "We'll get around to replacing the horse someday, but right now I only need feature X so I can complete feature Y on the real project - I'm not going to waste my time building tools."

    As far as the constant 'best tool' vs 'ideal world' choice goes, the idea that one should use the best tool for the job regardless of ideology is the same argument that says, "It's ok that my t-shirt was made by a 12 year old in malaysia, who works for 12 hours a day and barely gets enough to eat for the pay." There are good reasons for voting with your money, and voting with your use and advocacy of obviously inferior and possibly more expensive (in time, materials, money, etc) tools and products.

    However, a good tool can make one significantly more productive, especially if there's no learning curve associated with the use of that tool. I'd have no problem learning that, say, Red Hat uses MS Windows and Office inhouse for its sales force and secratarial staff. They probably don't, but if they did they'd have to give little or no training to new hires, increasing their immediate productivity.

    The reverse is also true, in many circumstances though. Investing time and money in training those employees can have long term payoffs - such as increasing the number of people in the world who can use such systems. It took Linus quite some time to come back up to his normal slow speed when he started trying out bitkeeper - but reports indicate that the investment has paid off, and he is now much more able to handle the load at a faster rate.

    Remember - this is just a scratch of the surface, and the fact is that these discussions are largely subjective and ideological. First be true to yourself. If you can't, in good conscience, use bitkeeper, then good for you. If you find you're more productive, and that's worth the ideological tradeoff, then congradulations on making that choice, knowing why you made that choice, and defending your choice as right for you. If you don't see it as a good tradeoff, then good for you for sticking to your guns - but don't gun down others because of your beliefs. They are not inferior - they simply have different values and priorities, and if you don't think they have the right to choose, then your closed mind is doing the worst damage to open source that can be done today.

    -Adam
  3. wtf? by Ender+Ryan · · Score: 4, Insightful
    3) Free software is NOT always the best option. Especially for large businesses which are concerned about the potential license taint and support issues. I love Free Software, but it's not always the right fit.

    "potential license taint"? What are you talking about? There is no potential license taint with free software. It is distributed under certain terms, if you want to incorporate the software in your own, then you have to either accept those terms or license a proprietary version of said software, if possible. With proprietary software, the only option you have is the latter.

    Stop spreading this bullshit FUD about license tainting; it's absolutely ridiculous.

    You say you love free software, if so, then please understand what you are saying about it.

    --
    Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
    1. Re:wtf? by The+Bungi · · Score: 2, Insightful
      With proprietary software, the only option you have is the latter.

      Actually, your choice there is not to buy the software. That's one little detail that people like yourself forget when they decry the evils of closed source.

      As with everything else in the real world, you vote with your hard-earned moolah.

      The extreme (let's screw ourselves because the tool/os/app we need is not 100% certifiably open source free-as-in-whatever) is problematic at best and stupid at worst.

  4. Overbudget and late by sohp · · Score: 3, Insightful
    My favorite quote from the article:

    McVoy's first estimate was that he could create BitKeeper in six months, working by himself. The number of programmers increased to two, then four, then eight. The time grew from six months to three years.

    For those of you keeping score, that's an overage of 48 TIMES the initial estimate. Even the NASA didn't do that bad with the ISS.