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McVoy on BitKeeper, Linus, and Perens

Joe Barr writes "The story of how BitKeeper has come to be Linus Torvalds' (and many other kernel hackers) tool of choice in maintaining the Linux development tree is worthy of a book. Here's the Cliff Note's version of McVoy's contribution to Linux kernel development, BitKeeper, and countless hours of flaming on the role of open source and proprietary software."

8 of 40 comments (clear)

  1. BitKeeper source code REVEALED! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    char bitsafe;

    void SetBit(char bit)
    {
    if (bit != 0 && bit != 1)
    FatalError("bit must be 0 or 1");
    bitsafe = bit;
    }

    char GetBit()
    {
    return bitsafe;
    }

  2. interesting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    McVoy seems very reasonable in this interview. He's a smart guy, and, like he says, a little insecure.

    However, it would be best if someone came up with a Free alternative to BitKeeper as quickly as possible.

    Proprietary source code management is a little too dangerous in my opinion. It gives the code owners unilateral power over your project, even if they don't choose to exercise it today, they might tomorrow. You might be forced someday to choose between accepting their new terms, or moving your project to a new system (which might take months of time).

    It's pretty stupid to choose your software ONLY on technical merit (the "best tool for the job" mentality that engineers and technical folks have). Remember that the license and the business model of the company offering the software might have a material impact on YOUR business someday!

    When your code is tied up inside of another company's product, it's best to stick with Free software if possible.

  3. surely you must be joking by j.e.hahn · · Score: 4, Insightful

    1) It doesn't matter what soource control system you use, you still own your own code. If the company making the source control product goes nuts, then you just have to abandon them.

    2) The best tool for the job mentality comes from long experience with inadequate tools. All too often people come along saying "Here use the screwdriver. I know you need a hammer, but at least my screwdriver is ethically pure." Open Source tools are a good thing. They are not always the best fit.

    3) Free software is NOT always the best option. Especially for large businesses which are concerned about the potential license taint and support issues. I love Free Software, but it's not always the right fit.

    4) There are 2 free alternatives to bitkeeper: CVS and Subversion. Learn them, use them.

    1. Re:surely you must be joking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      1) It doesn't matter what soource control system you use, you still own your own code. If the company making the source control product goes nuts, then you just have to abandon them.

      That's not the point, the point is your code is STORED INSIDE the product. So if you switch, you have to start from scratch on a new product. You don't just "abandon it" you have to pay time (i.e. money) to switch. This is true for any proprietary system.

      3) Free software is NOT always the best option. Especially for large businesses which are concerned about the potential license taint and support issues. I love Free Software, but it's not always the right fit.

      You love it so much that you spread lies about it? If you're not incorporating the Free software into your own product, there is no more license taint than using a proprietary system (in fact, there is less risk because freedom to use is guaranteed). And many Free licenses, such as BSD, "taint" your project only in the most minimal way, even if you distribute.

      So, let's see you ship a gratis copy of MS SQL server with each unit of your next product, and then let's talk about "license taint" (when you're through with the lawsuits of course).

      4) There are 2 free alternatives to bitkeeper: CVS and Subversion. Learn them, use them.

      Good advice, and let's add one more: IMPROVE them!

  4. Best tool for the job or Open Source uber alles? by Brian+Hatch · · Score: 4, Interesting
    The debate between using the best tool for the job, vs using the best Open Source equivalent is going to be around forever. Here are some of my completely random thoughts:

    • When you choose an Open Source project and it has deficiencies, you can talk with the developers to explain what needs fleshing out. If you can code, then you can work on this yourself. In the end, you help create a better product that may be more appropiate for a wider audience. It may be painful in the process, however.

    • When you are told you must have certain functionality that is not available in an Open Source product, make sure that the requirements are not artificial. When someone requires you have your document in some proprietary format, you can supply it in something open and they may never know the difference. Write your "Word Docs" in OpenOffice. Make your presentation in HTML and run it with a web browser. Question any requirements that seem to be based on the preconcieved notions of the requestor.

    • When functionality of an Open Source product is close but below its proprietary equivalent, do remember that "usability" is a factor of what you can do now, and what you can do later. The Open Source product will be available in it's current incarnation freely forever. (And later versions will likely continue to be developed as well.) The proprietary product may not be around tomorrow, it's license may change, or they may hold your work for ransom, and you have no control. You will likely find the product depricated forcing a costly upgrade at some point - that's the way the vendor continues to get income.

    • When you simply must have a given set of functionality that is not available with Open Source software, and you do not have the ability to work with developers to achieve it, use the proprietary product reluctantly. Stay abreast of changes to the Open Source products available. Do your best to keep as much available outside the proprietary application so you can extract it and put it into something Open Source when available down the road.

  5. Paradigms are achangin', hold on tight! by stienman · · Score: 4, Insightful
    There are a ton of issues wrapped up in this whole bitkeeper saga:
    • Proprietary vs Open
    • Cost vs Free
    • Freedom vs Artificial Restrictions
    • 'Best Tool for the Job vs Ideal Choice
    • Long Term Investment vs Rapid Development
    And that's just scratching the surface. There are valid reasons for choosing one path or another. This article is enlightening in that we now have a face and series of reasons as to why McVoy chose to implement Bitkeeper as a company with a business plan that closely resembles common closed source companies.

    We also have some enlightenment as to how and why Linus chose to move to bitkeeper.

    McVoy said, "Hey, Linus, let's work out the system for the 'best tool' to help you do your work." They came up with a rough specification, and McVoy has used that data specifically to create a profitable product, which (he claims) Linus started using spontaneously. The fact that it's almost exactly what Linus needs is by design from the start.

    People who are up in arms about it being developed as proprietary software are complaining about the wrong thing. McVoy used his connections to gather information for a product which turned out to be a killer app in the area of source management. The fact that he's letting open source people use it for free is no more philanthropic than Microsoft donating software to universities at a reduced rate - it's another business decision.

    What open source advocates ought to be up in arms about is, "Why don't we have an open source product that rivals bitkeeper in its scalability?" The answer is that we've long had tools that were 'good enough', and we've never had a project nearly as large and complex with so many developers and scalability issues as Linux itself has that has justified 3 years of its own development.

    We've just added another crutch to the tired old horse that is source management, and said, "We'll get around to replacing the horse someday, but right now I only need feature X so I can complete feature Y on the real project - I'm not going to waste my time building tools."

    As far as the constant 'best tool' vs 'ideal world' choice goes, the idea that one should use the best tool for the job regardless of ideology is the same argument that says, "It's ok that my t-shirt was made by a 12 year old in malaysia, who works for 12 hours a day and barely gets enough to eat for the pay." There are good reasons for voting with your money, and voting with your use and advocacy of obviously inferior and possibly more expensive (in time, materials, money, etc) tools and products.

    However, a good tool can make one significantly more productive, especially if there's no learning curve associated with the use of that tool. I'd have no problem learning that, say, Red Hat uses MS Windows and Office inhouse for its sales force and secratarial staff. They probably don't, but if they did they'd have to give little or no training to new hires, increasing their immediate productivity.

    The reverse is also true, in many circumstances though. Investing time and money in training those employees can have long term payoffs - such as increasing the number of people in the world who can use such systems. It took Linus quite some time to come back up to his normal slow speed when he started trying out bitkeeper - but reports indicate that the investment has paid off, and he is now much more able to handle the load at a faster rate.

    Remember - this is just a scratch of the surface, and the fact is that these discussions are largely subjective and ideological. First be true to yourself. If you can't, in good conscience, use bitkeeper, then good for you. If you find you're more productive, and that's worth the ideological tradeoff, then congradulations on making that choice, knowing why you made that choice, and defending your choice as right for you. If you don't see it as a good tradeoff, then good for you for sticking to your guns - but don't gun down others because of your beliefs. They are not inferior - they simply have different values and priorities, and if you don't think they have the right to choose, then your closed mind is doing the worst damage to open source that can be done today.

    -Adam
  6. wtf? by Ender+Ryan · · Score: 4, Insightful
    3) Free software is NOT always the best option. Especially for large businesses which are concerned about the potential license taint and support issues. I love Free Software, but it's not always the right fit.

    "potential license taint"? What are you talking about? There is no potential license taint with free software. It is distributed under certain terms, if you want to incorporate the software in your own, then you have to either accept those terms or license a proprietary version of said software, if possible. With proprietary software, the only option you have is the latter.

    Stop spreading this bullshit FUD about license tainting; it's absolutely ridiculous.

    You say you love free software, if so, then please understand what you are saying about it.

    --
    Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
  7. Re:A bit biased. by RocketJeff · · Score: 4, Informative
    If he advocated that Sun open source SunOS, stating that it was a feasible option, why hasn't he done the same for BitKeeper?
    Simple reason - Sun doesn't make any (or so little it doesn't matter) money selling SunOS/Solaris - it makes its money selling the hardware that runs SunOS/Solaris. Even if they Open Sourced it and people ported it to every non-Sun computer in existance, they still wouldn't lose too many sales - and they'd gain the fixes/enhancements made for free by the Open Source developers.

    BitKeeper, otoh, sells software. If they Open Sourced it, they'd loose a lot (most) of the sales of their ownly product.

    Different companies, different products, different focus.