Slashdot Mirror
Lifetime Careers in IT?
CyPlasm asks: "MSN Careers had this article posted the other day that asked about a "Lifetime Career in IT: Is It Possible?" Does the average Slashdot reader think they will retire (with a pension, benefits, etc) after a long and successful career in IT?"
We have a few lifers, and they're always the source of plenty of good information. Don't have to know the latest languages to be good at thinking about how things work.
Not me though. I'm going to claw my way to middle management and worry about TPS reports.
Anyone need an overpriced mechanic who specializes in aircooled VWs/Porsches?
Send your friends messages of love at fuck-you.org
It's not as if you have to be on top of the game in IT. At least, not the government sector.. Most managers and senior support staff are in their 30's and 40's and completely ignorant of whats been going on for the past 5 years.
The million+ folks who got laid off since the burst of the dot-com bubble and have not yet gotten a new job say "NO"!
After spending 20 years as one of the lowest paid (yet consistently employeed) network/sys admins on the planet, yes, I will get a pension, benefits, etc.
And I don't see that being in computers makes it any easier or harder. Sure you've got to retrain every year, but we've got it easy compared to doctors, and even your average factory job changes enough that it's an issue there too. Stop learning and you die, first mentally then physically!
Delivering militantly anti-commercial music to all two people who care!
Maybe I'm missing something but:
1) Why on Earth not? The article doesn't offer any reason to doubt the rather obvious conclusion that, of course, people will have lifelong careers in IT. Except that "MSN Careers member EsTeeJay" thinks otherwise.
2) Maybe I'm nitpicking, but why is a pension a prerequisite for a lifetime career? I'm not holding my breath for a pension but still expect to spend a lifetime doing what I do.
The only reason I can think of to doubt the long-term potential of an IT career is that systems may become so intuitive there's no need for a admins. But given the way software progresses, one doesn't see much chance of that.
What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
Asking a generation x geek today if they will 'retire from IT' might in 30 years seem as inappropriate a question as saying, "well gosh, do you think you could spend your career in education?"
The obvious answer being that of course you can spend your lifetime in IT work. In it's current manifestation, it is a new field. One that will continue to branch out in ways currently not imagined.
Cheers,
-- RLJ
Consulting: You work for a consulting firm and merc yourself out to the highest bidder. (Benefits: Lots of money, though little in corporate benefits (Stock, Options, etc.))
Management: The top of the IT ladder is CTO. Most companies have them now. (That puts you on the Board of Directors, and a VP after your name). (Disadvantage: You are now a technical manager, not a technician.)
Company Leap Frog: Work for Company A, beef up your resume and jump to Company B (higher up the corporate food chain). Work for Company B for awhile and do the same and jump to Company C (again with an increase in Title and Wage) and so on and so forth. (I have worked longer in my company the Every Director/VP in my building. Most have not worked here longer then 2 years.)
Conclusion: It is possible, even using tactics found in other departments. But is the end result really worth it? (Even if it is what you want to do for the rest of your life?)
*Carlos: Exit Stage Right*
"Geeks, Where would you be without them?"
"Got Linux?"
So yes, lifetime IT jobs probably exist and they don't necessarily have to be boring. It really depends on what you are looking for.
My grandfather is 90. He is in perfect mental and physical health, and "officially" worked as an attorney until a few years ago. He still occasionally takes depositions and adjudicates some lesser disputes.
Aside from the fact that that side of the family has a history of longevity, I believe that the two reasons why he kept going were (a) he didn't feel like quitting, because he enjoyed his job, and (b) he worked in a field (partner in a mid-sized law firm) where nobody could dictate to him when to retire. His expertise grew over time.
In Europe, a lot of societies which have historically cherished the idea of retirement at age 65 with a generous pension are starting to re-think this concept, primarily because the pension funds simply won't be able to keep up with the glut of baby boomers retiring soon, but also because peoples' attitude towards work is changing.
Lack of job security nowadays means that, while you may show professionalism towards an employer, you do not display the traditional "loyalty for life". As I can tell, it is in the nature of companies to act in a manner they perceive to be economically rational (regardless of whether it is or not)--this takes precedence over keeping old Smithers but-he's-only-got-2-years-to-go-until-retirement around at all costs. Concurrently, people are discovering that they are far more mobile in the labor market, recession or not, than they once were, and employers generally seem to recognize that fact.
Especially in IT, where actual hands-on know-how may become obsolescent fairly quickly, but experience in how to manage that know-how (project management, design, business-side consulting, etc.) grows over time. I can imagine that we will see an increase in the number of over-40 employees going part-time consultant, and simply not quitting at 65. I don't know about you, but I love my line of work, and can't really imagine just stopping dead in my tracks one day to go play shuffleboard with a bunch of walking corpses.
So a classical "employment-until-pension"? No. A "job for life"? Definitely. I don't know about you, but I would love to still be a part-time IT consultant when I'm 70.
Cole's Law: Thinly sliced cabbage
You go through school, going deep into debt, to learn the trade. You get a job, where they work your nuggies off, for a "salary" that's laughable in hourly terms. Then, after ten years struggle, you're either RIFfed, or, if you're darned "lucky", they'll "reward" you by taking away the only thing that made the job even tolerable - you'll become a low-level manager, and never again be permitted to dirty your fingers typing in code.
Thanks, I'll take a pass on IT as a career. In many ways, I'm glad that I came down with MS *before* I got RIFfed, as it has allowed me the time to realize that my "career" had cost me my health, my social life, and one of the things that I enjoyed most - the joy of crafting a well-thought-out and well-executed program with my own two hands.
Pension? Get real! To get that, you have to stay in one company for ages. Fat chance of that, with companies dropping like flies all the time.
No, you might actually be better off if you skipped school, and stuck with your "You want fries with that?" menial job. At least you'd have some semblance of a life with that, and after paying off the student loan that allowed you to join the exciting and fast-paced world of IT, I'm not so sure that you wouldn't actually be ahead financially, too.
Lemon curry?
Honestly, how many people in MANY OTHER FIELDS got layed off within the last 2 years? Granted a lot of people in the Silicon Valley Tech industry got layed off, but that includes more than just "IT" workers.
Sales Managers, Marketing Employees, Graphic Designers, Gophers, PC Technicians, programmers, and Administrators were layed off.
Some of the Marketing people I know that were layed off had been with the company for over 15 years. You can be layed off or fired in any field - it doesn't matter. As long as your smart, have a plan, and quite a bit of luck - you can get your way through anything (almost).
Ave Molech Setting
According to this and this article, close to half of all IT workers could be displaced in as little as two years. International outsourcing, contractors, part-timers and consultants will do most of the work. If you want to work in IT for the rest of your career, you need to be planning your strategy now. So quit munching pizza and watching cartoons and figure out what you want to be when you grow up.
Maybe the analysts are wrong, but do you want to bet your career on it?
The warning signs are out there.
IT professionals still wonder what to expect if they choose to devote their entire career to IT.
Since 1987 I've endured thankless all-nighters and many wasted weekends to satify the insane schedules of inexperienced project managers. I've also had the crushing responsibility that comes with installing and supporting systems that multi-billion dollar companies rely on. I've been shit on as a consultant and exhalted as a savior and treated like a hero. I have experienced a full-spectrum of environments. I am now 35 years old.
But the one thing that has been consistent thoughout this whole time is this: I love what I do. Maddening at times - yes. Mundane - yep. But almost always interresting. If you dont have passion for technology, you wont last.
"You have to keep yourself trained even if management will not pay for it," says Edward Pilling, who participated in the discussion. "You have to have one critical skill set that is in need."
This is what I mean. Learn the new technology. Stay current and informed. Read Slashdot (mod me up now). Take classes. But most of all, stick your nose into it, roll up your sleeves and get your hands dirty. If you are going to get up each day and drag your ass into work, you might as well enjoy your workload. Sure, most IT jobs pay well, but if you hate computers it will show and you wont survive the influx of new grads and you will fall to the side of the road while the fast pace of technology marches on without you. If you love it, you wont be able to get enough of it, and you will succeed.
I see the job market in general as coming full circle back to an environment similar to that of that of my great grandfather. In those days a person with a given skill set worked for whomever payed them the most and provided the most interesting projects. Experience is as valuable back then as it is today.
The days of working for a company for 30 years and retiring with full pensions are gone. Companies I see rarely offer pensions and more often than not you hear tales of them raiding pension funds anyway. At least with a 401K our money is out of their hands.
As an IT person(web primarily), I spend a lot of my personal time researching and learning new and different technologies. Partially because I have to, but mostly because I love to play with things on my LAN just to see how they work. Will I be doing the exact same thing 10 years from now as I am today? I hope not!
The IT field moves fast, as an IT person it is important to me in a job that the employer is willing to 1. Train me in additional skills and 2. Allow me to freedom to implement them however is best. If they can't offer that, then it's time to find one who will. Or freelance with someone who will.
Yes, times are dark now for the IT field. Things in the DotCom Craze swung so much out of control and the pendulum was bound to swing to the other extreme. God willing, things will balance out. Some great people have been hurt in the downturn in the IT field, but then again a lot have been flush out who had no business there to begin with!
You'd be surprised, a good mechanic and a body technician (repair wrecks) can make really great money. It's really hard work but good mechanics can make 65K and body guys can top 6 figures and that's just working for a shop. Most of those guys get paid by the bill hours and the job hours aren't how long it actually takes. There's a big book with how many hours it takes to do EVERYTHING but if you can do it in half the time that's twice the money.
People like to blame <your-personal-subpopulation-here> discrimination for there own short-comings and lack of willingness to keep current. The way not to be a victim of age discrimination is to embrace change and stay current. Employers will pay for experience as long as you can apply it to current technology and the problems to be solved NOW.
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither safety nor liberty.
Ben
"It's been well documented that the average career of a programmer is about 4 years".
SAY WHAT? Where is this well documented? Other than people who have just started, I don't know many good code monkeys who gave up after four years. I and a number of friends have been going at it for 10. My brother (much older than I) has been going at it for more than 25 years.
And I have to say I'm glad there aren't enough management positions for all of them. I've quit jobs because they wanted to push me into management.
I LIKE coding, and I'm very good at it. I don't want to manage and get away from the tech. Although I have accepted architect roles as long as I could keep my hands dirty.
I can see myself staying in IT for my entire career. I can also see myself going low tech and becoming a boat wright.
I agree that there are places where programmers are disposable. This is probably where you get the 4 year people from. I was lucky enough to start in a place that wasn't like that. And now I'm lucky enough to have the insight to recognize a place like that and the skills to walk away to find a better place.
Those of us that enjoy what we do for a living can and WILL make a career out of IT.
The people that won't be in this for the long haul are those that were told, "Hey, get into that IT thing. You can make a ton of cash and play games all day."
Those that got into IT because it was the "place to be" will vaporize into whatever the next "place to be" is.
To me, this means that I won't have to listen to people bitching about how they took a desktop job and don't get to work on any servers. I won't have to hear, "I worked on this, that, and the other thing" and the words 'but you don't know what cut and awk do' ring in my head.
Sorry, I'm venting because these are the folks that are kicking and screaming to stay in IT, but they don't really belong in IT and the "next big thing" isn't here yet for them to hop to. There are many good IT folks out of work today, and these whining people need to make room.
"...the shortest distance between two points may be straight line, but it is by no means the most interesting."
I've been twenty-two years in Silicon Valley, and I'm _trying_ to keep
...
...
going as a geek,but it gets tougher every year.
Technology companies have this inherent need to plan projects for the
earliest possible completion.
It's _always_ a race to market.
There's _always_ schedule pressure.
When you're 22 or 25 and just out of school, single and with few
responsibilities, "challenging" projects are fun, in that masochistic
geek way that we'reall so familiar with. Possibilities are exciting;
obstacles exist to be overcome. You're gaining mastery.
You *know* that you can bring in on time if onlyyou work nights and weekends
for nine months or so. Maybe a year
So you work insanely hard for three years, maybe five, and the company "appreciates" it. And eventually that company goes under, or closes your
division, or something, and you move on. (Those options? Never were worth
very much, and you never sold any of them anyway.)
Then you're 37 and have young kids and a spouse who works.
Your manager comes to you with a right-to-left project plan that you _know_
will require nights and weekends. Again. And you sigh, and sign up, and do
the work -- it's familiar, you know the right way to do stuff, you know the
problems and what the solutions cost, you know the tradeoffs.
You do it, but it costs you -- you have to miss your kid's school talent show,
you're not home nights, you have to work the week you had planned to take the
family to the beach. Your spouse resents the hours, but they've promised you a
sabbatical after only five years, and you've got lots of stock options.
Somewhere along the line you try management, and parts of it are OK,
and parts of it you're real good at, but it's tiresome to work at such a high
level of abstraction, where there's no right answers, only "issues". And it's
soul-killing to watch your boss, and his boss, try to avoid understanding
inconvenient facts. At some point you know, you _insist_ that the plan under
discussion is unrealistic, because it is. You're not a team player.
Your review is painful, for the first time ever.
Back to engineering.
You work hard for a year, and they cancel the project.
You work *really* hard on the next, critical, save-the-company project --
and they cancel that one too. You go to meetings for three weeks trying to
define another product, and then that company folds. Your options are again
worthless. The company stock you bought through the ESPP is worthless.
You're burnt out emotionally, and your health could be better -
a dozen years of sitting in a cubicle typing under fluorescents
has taken its toll.
You resolve never again to sacrifice family life and emotional health in favor
of working too hard. You limit your hours,never come in on weekends any more.
You won't sign up for plans that demand sixty hour weeks -- but most of your
co-workers are youngsters just out of school, and eat that stuff up. You look
unmotivated and cynical by comparison -- in fact, you _are_ unmotivated and
cynical. It's great doing stuff with your own kids for a couple years (but
they're teenagers now, and don't have much time for you), but your reviews
aren't much fun. They hand out options and you get damn few. You stop getting
raises.
Then that company folds, and you're forty-nine years old, looking for another gig
in a downturn. The companies that need you are looking for someone to come in
and work _really_ _hard_ to save a project that's fallen behind schedule
but you could pull it off, with only
nine months or so of working nights and weekends.
Maybe a year
----
All you young guys should read Tracy Kidder's excellent
_The_Soul_Of_A_New_Machine_. Maybe read it twice.
Wait a minute. Didn't I say that on the other side of the record? I'd better check