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NARAS vs. the RIAA

Posted by CmdrTaco on from the stuff-to-think-about dept.

sdbrian writes "An all around excellent paper concerning the National Association of Recording Arts and Sciences (NARAS) and their position with regard to the RIAA has been published on Salon.com. The author (John Snyder) quotes from many articles that have been discussed on here on Slashdot. One of Snyder's conclusions, "NARAS should take the lead in this matter. Those who are taking it now are leading us over a cliff. The RIAA has staked out an untenable position that is as unrealistic as it is anti-consumer and anti-artist.""

22 of 183 comments (clear)

  1. drag and drop file sharing by stonebeat.org · · Score: 4, Funny

    The phrase "Those who are taking it now are leading us over a cliff", gives a new meaning to the "Drag and Drop File Sharing"

    --


    Consensus is good, but informed dictatorship is better
  2. It's all about the money by Big+Mark · · Score: 3, Insightful
    "The RIAA has staked out an untenable position that is as unrealistic as it is anti-consumer and anti-artist."
    It's pro-capitalist though, which is why it is allowed to exist. If some people weren't making a fortune then they wouldn't fight to let it remain.

    -Mark
    1. Re:It's all about the money by Frater+219 · · Score: 5, Insightful
      It's pro-capitalist though, which is why it is allowed to exist.

      And thus we have an excellent illustration of the difference between the interests of certain capitalists and the usual meaning of capitalism, the free market. The copyright regime allows certain moneyed interests to pursue what is economically called "rent-seeking" behavior: the pursuit of legislation and legal precedent for private benefit, without regard for its effect on other people's property rights or personal liberties.

      Increasingly, it should be obvious that the "intellectual property" approach -- the discussion of copyright as a kind of property rather than as a special privilege granted to advance a particular public good -- exists solely to make this rent-seeking seem legitimate. If copyright is "property", then temporal limits upon it seem absurd; after all, we do not have limits upon the amount of time any other property ownership remains valid.

      However, copyright is not property. It is a privilege granted by government, which permits a certain party (the copyright holder) to forbid others from using their own actual and physical property (e.g. hard disks, CD blanks) for particular purposes, namely copying the covered works. This privilege may well be legitimate insofar as it serves the public benefit, by encouraging the production of original works. Yet perhaps it is not so legitimate, in a period of history when evidently many artists and creators will create high-quality works whilst disclaiming any such protection. I'm not sure.

      However, either way, this "intellectual property" talk has to stop. It's just a sneaky way of slipping unfounded assumptions (namely, that copyright is like property) into the public discourse. Let's call property "property", and copyright "copyright" -- and rent-seeking "corruption".

    2. Re:It's all about the money by zmooc · · Score: 5, Interesting

      It's even worse - this isn't about intellectual property as we know it. This is about IP bought by large companies from small artists. So it's not intellectual property since it didn't come from their intellect but from their wallet. It's all just about money and stupid artists that really believe those large companies are going to do them any good while they only do a lot of good to a few and about nothing for the rest. Their marketing-machine (which is paid by the CD-buyers - the price of a CD is mainly for funding the marketing machine) is waaaaaay louder than that of smaller artists trying to do it by themselves and therefore these companies have by now replaced music with top40 and artists with stars. So I'll say it once again: don't buy CDs, don't watch MTV and if you're an artist: don't go to the big boys. They're crippling their own market.

      Real artists don't mind if their work gets "stolen". They're proud it is so good people want to "steal" it.

      --
      0x or or snor perron?!
    3. Re:It's all about the money by hastings14 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      While I'm all in favor of curbing rent-seeking behavior and having a more balanced copyright system, the idea that intellectual property is not property doesn't make any sense. Property is anything one has ownership of (the right to exclude, sell ir transfer, and use). Thia makes intellectual property a type of property. Its true that intellectual property is not real estate (known in law as real property) but there is also personal property, and there is monetary property, and I'm sure other types as well I can't think of off the top of my head. Are you going to try and convince me now that the 1s and 0s that make up your bank account are not property because they exist as money only due to government regulation and you can't stick a fork in them? How about transferring it to me then!!??! Copyright is a temporary property right granted by government. How long that grant should be, or whether it should exist at all, is a subject for debate. In its current state, though, its property. Just as when my landlord grants me the "privilege" of using his apartment for a month in return for his monetary benefit, and government grants me the "privilege" of using a work I created in return for their benefit of me having created it. A landlord's "license" confers me no real property, but just the right to temporarily use his property. A better example is a life estate, if you're familiar with it (a person can legally inherit the right to real property, but only for their lifetime, then it passes to someone else as dictated by the original owner). In fact, a life estate in real property almost exactly mirrors a copyright grant in intellectual property, with the public domain serving as the recipient of the remainder after the owner of the life estate (the copyright owner) dies. I may be getting over a few people's heads here, but it would probably be more useful for a debate on intellectual property to not try and define it as something else, but to instead discuss what the specific rights, responsibilties, regulation and ownership periods should be...

  3. The RIAA's first, and ONLY care by SoVi3t · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ...is money. They have never once cared about the artists, or the consumers. Copyrighting songs was about protecting their intellectual property, not protecting the artists themselves, and their work. Whether it was suing Napster, or price fixing, they've proved that ALL they care about is the almighty buck. No other group or organization has ever been this greedy. The very fact that they seem to lump every human being on earth, into a single category of people that steal music for free, is proof they have no idea what is going on in the real world, and will be going extinct very soon. They just are afraid to let go, even though they know it's going to be over for them eventually.

    --
    Defender of Microsoft and Communism!!!
    1. Re:The RIAA's first, and ONLY care by meatpopcicle · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Why should they care about the artist? They are in business to make money by any means necessary. They have most artists by the gonads and make them sign contracts that are impossible to make money from.

      This maybe OK for the big bands, but for the small guys it makes life impossible until they get a top 20 album. Once that occurs they have some clout and can negotiate better record deals.

      I feel for the artists. The RIAA says "Its for the artists", but that has proven to not be the case. The RIAA needs to get a grip on reality and change their business model or they WILL become obsolete. What will happen is that the Artists will start using their own recording studios and sell their work over the internet directly, thus removing the need for the RIAA.

      I will not feel sorry for the RIAA at all when this happens.

      --
      "You're on my side and the dark side, like Lando Calrissian?" --Gimpy, Undergrads
  4. Arguments against RIAA by Synithium · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It goes to figure that the artists themselves would have to take the official stance against the facist ways that the RIAA tends to take. Consumers, while holding the majority of the power, take very little action. The artists (whom started this in the first place, btw) need to take the proactive stance to create a fairer system.

  5. File sharing viable? by Azureflare · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I think there is some validity to this position, because there is no possible way to get rid of filesharing, since people will always find ways around blocks...That is the nature of the internet. I've seen many posts on slashdot, and I know that many people would prefer to buy very high quality (i.e. lossless, or 320kbits ogg or mp3) for a small fee. The transition period, as has been noted, is very difficult. Change is always difficult, and the shortsightedness of the RIAA has not helped them. They are obviously either opportunists or vagrants out to steal people's money. If they truly were real business managers, they would find a way to make the current reality work. You can't change reality to fit what you want. This has been shown throughout history (which is also why wars have been fought, ahem, French Revolution). I think it is very good that we don't have to resort to violence to solve this conflict anymore; it shows how far our society has evolved. Anyways, I hope they can figure something out, because I'm tired of 128kbits mp3s off p2p networks =P

  6. Anti history too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    If they keep pushing anticopy systems, they're locking, or better "setting a time bomb". Like Alexandria library, but centuries latter and with delayed fire. I hope in 200 years people will not point to us as the persons that left them unreadable culture. If it keeps going on, I know what new career will appear, Digital Art Restoration, with lots of classes about math, cryptography, and electronics, with the purpose of removing the "white paint that was put over the wall to hide the picture".

  7. Very interesting read.. by Crasoum · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Ananova.com reported that 3.8 million DVD players were sold last year, double that of the previous 12 months. DVD sales reached 80 million last year, representing a 111 percent increase over 2001. Twenty million DVDs and 1.2 million DVD players were sold in December 2002 alone. The movie industry sold 1.6 billion tickets, taking in $9.3 billion in gross box office receipts in 2002, up 11 percent from the previous year, despite President and CEO of the MPAA Jack Valenti's recent statements that the future is bleak. Not since the 1950s have so many movie tickets been sold. Meanwhile, movie sharing on the Internet is at an all-time high. The movie business isn't suffering because of activity on the Internet. Quite the opposite -- the industry is making more money than ever! This is happening at a time when consumers are being offered more choices to view movies than ever before. This supports the view that people spend more money when they have more choices.

    Makes a great point, as you give the public more options to choose from, you get more of the publics cash....

    Maybe one day MPAA/RIAA will learn this...

    NAAAAA it's easier to have congress protect them.

  8. A Building Momentum by monomania · · Score: 3, Insightful

    This news seems to be in keeping with the gathering tedency of reactions I've seen -- it does put Hillary Rosen's announce retirement into an interesting light. I think now would be a great time for a serious, concerted and public stand from a united group of civil and cyber liberties groups. At the very least everyone who is on the consumer side of the issues should be making common-cause together. I think the momentum is with us, and not the RIAA.

  9. LINK to article on mercantilism. by dada21 · · Score: 4, Informative

    http://www.mises.org/fullarticle.asp?record=152&mo nth=5

    There's a great article that speaks about mercantilism in an easy to read way. The entire time you'll be thinking "THIS is what the RIAA is about."

  10. Don't piss in their wheaties! by SuperDuG · · Score: 4, Insightful
    The RIAA and MPAA are exactly what we need in America. These groups are looking out for copyright laws which means they are helping to protect the artists they represent ...

    Wait one gosh darn minute there ... Don't the people who run the RIAA/MPAA own the copyrights to the stuff ... they're just looking to make sure they get every last sent out of someone elses work. Damn it and I thought they were trying to protect my intelectual property with all these strict copyright laws.

    I think the artists (and no I don't mean britney) should take a stand ... and forget their old stuff and the souls they sold ... and move on and make some great new music they own the rights to ... I think the music industry needs to follow the book industry and be publishers, ONLY.

    I'm tired of the MPAA/RIAA throwing billions of dollars to buy their laws, if they want to impress me they'd just shut the fuck up and lower the price of their shit.

    --
    Ignore the "p2p is theft" trolls, they're just uninformed
  11. YRO Needs an annual public cluefulness award... by idontgno · · Score: 4, Interesting
    and I nominate John Snyder for the next one. He clearly gets it.

    NARAS is a more technical organization than RIAA, right? (More audio engineers, etc., than executives.) And regarding executives...

    Record companies are not logical, righteous entities. They are ramshackle, profit-driven enterprises. They act in their perceived best interests, and they act ruthlessly and, in many cases, irrationally. The people who run them still have their e-mail printed out by their secretaries.

    Did anyone else visualize Dilbert's PHB sitting at the desk of President of the RIAA? Scary and yet strangely compelling.

    --
    Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
  12. The Gist by crashnbur · · Score: 5, Insightful
    A record executive and his son make a formal case for freely downloading music. The gist: 50 million Americans can't be wrong.
    If that kind of argument had been the rule of thumb for deciding legality in America from day one, we would still have segregated schools, or even slavery, or, hell, we'd be the United Colonial States of the Commonwealth. Besides, 50 million doesn't even constitution 20% of the American population, so where does that stop? I suppose a better way to word it would have been to add this line: "What are they going to do? Jail us all?"

    The meat of the argument is much better. Thomas Jefferson's belief in the free exchange of information (or ideas) to promote intellectual growth is what I have believed in since day one. Stifling the education process by prohibiting the utility of someone's ideas is not only detrimental to those who can't use the ideas, but also to those who hold claim to the ideas.

    But at the same time, plagiarism is wrong. But why should utilizing others' discoveries be illegal if proper credit is given? I can't conceive any principle or moral factor that justifies that.

    The problem with ideas, words, and anything related to the thought process is that they are intangible. They can not be proven to be the property of someone else, yet the patent office or whoever is in charge simply takes the first person to show up. Further more, any human mind is capable of innovative ideas that can benefit us all. What if it was my great-grandfather who originally came up with the Dr Pepper formula, but he didn't like the way it tasted so he discarded it, only for his neighbor to pick it up and start a company on it? Bad example, but it proves the point for me: it can not be proven that you're the one who worked to develop this idea or product, and it can not be morally justifiable to grant anyone the rights to prohibit the usage of such ideas simply based on the fact that they are the first to go public with it.

    Information, ideas, innovation... All should be public and free to exchange. Prohibiting such exchange is prohibiting the advancement of the human mind and of the human race. We would be in much better shape if we did not have legal institutions in place for restricting our rights to apply our own thoughts.

  13. What an excellent article... by NewbieV · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's a shame we can't moderate Salon articles... the author seriously deserves a +1 Insightful...

    --


    "For every right, an equal responsibility..."
  14. Do the math. by cmason · · Score: 5, Interesting
    Why doesn't someone do a study that correlates the number of CDs sold year over year to the number of new releases year over year weighted by the popularity of those releases (via some other measure, like concert ticket sales, etc.)? This might provide evidence to prove or disprove the common statement that record sales are hurt by the lack of fresh material more than by file sharing.

    I'm tired of people (on both sides of the music sharing issue) trotting out the same rhetorical arguments all the time. There's nothing new here. Snyder's arguments about growth in other media don't prove his point; rather they show that the decline in record sales can't be blamed on the slowing economy. I believe I bought fewer CDs from major labels this year, not because I was downloading them from the internet, but because I wasn't interested in them. My money instead goes to new, independant artists (via CD Baby a fantastic way to buy music that doesn't make you feel like a criminal.)

    I for one don't believe that we're going to (or that we should) do away with copyright. I just believe that the current music industry is going to be end-runned. I hope that we don't end up legislating it's continued existence. By that I don't mean that we should permit illegal file sharing, but that we shouldn't mandate a technological solution which only allows big media to create content.

    -c

    --
    "If you are an idealist it doesn't matter what you do or what goes on around you, because it isn't real anyway."-R.P.W.
  15. NRA vs RIAA??? by lesinator · · Score: 3, Funny

    when I first saw the title I thought I said "NRA vs RIAA". Now that's a matchup I want to see....

  16. NARAS Coup? by Josuah · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I read through the article, and it seems pretty clear that NARAS has decided to embrace P2P, file-sharing, and subscription models without DRM as the primary form of music distribution. One of the arguments he made was that it turned out to actually profit many artists, and among those he cited was Janis Ian.

    So I found it very interesting that the link off the article to Janis Ian's Internet Debacle quotes NARAS as follows:

    The NARAS people were a bit more pushy. They told me downloads were "destroying sales", "ruining the music industry", and "costing you money".

    Looks like NARAS has done a 180. But if they previously didn't believe in what this article is arguing for, why do they believe it now? Is it really just because they think they have to adapt to the new model? Or are there other motives which we don't know about? After all, I bet a huge load of /.ers are going to think "Yay, NARAS! Boo, RIAA!" after reading this. Are we looking at a power struggle?

  17. Cause and Effect by Snork+Asaurus · · Score: 3, Interesting
    I would argue that it's not the presence of a "free" alternative that has caused the decline in CD sales, it's the presence of competing choices offering more value and fewer hassles.

    Indeed. I believe that the recording industry has completely confused cause with effect and refuses to accept the consequnces of its actions.

    While I do not download copyrighted material, many years ago my music budget and I completely abandoned the regular commercial stream in favor of independent artists and recordings. The top 4 reasons were:

    1) Quality

    2) Choice and variety

    3) Value for money

    4) Contempt for an industry that would be as at home selling hamburgers - a soulless marketing machine that didn't have a clue what real music was, treated it as a commodity and treated its customers and artists with equal levels of contempt while continuing down a path towards providing less of items 1-3. I wasn't alone with my feelings and options arose - we took them. I'm not going back - I'm much happier where I am now.

    --
    Sigs are bad for your health.
  18. correlation, causation by nyet · · Score: 3, Insightful

    First off, you provide no evidence that your correlation is direct evidence of causation.

    Secondly, and more importantly, history is replete with DIRECT counterexamples of the assertion that IP laws stimulate innovation.

    Innovations in airplanes did not occur until the US invalidated them soon after the onset of WWI

    Innovations in the gun did not occur until Colt's revolver patent expired, even though Browning (and many others) had almost immediately improved on the original revolver design significantly. Patent law prevented any such advances from seeing the light of day for decades.

    These are just two examples of the most obvious (and famous) patents stifling innovation; an even CURSORY look at the history of "successful" patents will give you example after example of innovation coming to an almost complete halt during the life of a patent, only to resume again after it had lapsed. To further illustrate this, in endeavors where the patent holder was succesfully able to extend his patent, innovation similarly died off again.

    Note also that this effect of patents is ENTIRELY intentional; all competition is supposed to be stifled until the patent holder has "recouped" his investment. This is a "functioning" government enforced monopoly.

    Also, note that "intentional" does NOT imply constitutionality either. That has more to do with the lobbying activities of rent-seeking corporations...