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Are Coders Exempt From California's Overtime Laws?

Posted by Cliff on from the a-hole-in-the-loop dept.

Gizmo Kid asks: "How many of you Californian, full-time, software programmers are getting paid overtime? From what I understand, a law in California, passed within the last two years, says that software engineers who make less than $41/hour [PDF version] are required to be paid for overtime? Are your employers following the rules? I'm not sure mine is?"

22 of 595 comments (clear)

  1. Move to Europe ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It really works, you get decent holidays, you dont get screwed out of your retirement. It has democracy inside ! (no inherited positions of power, for example) It depends much less on imported oil. (which will run out in your lifetime, enjoy)
    (Too many other reasons to mention)

    1. Re:Move to Europe ! by Ironica · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If France and Germany had to provide 100% for their own defense I think their welfare state would shrink as well.

      Yeah, because after all, we don't have terrorists killing thousands of people here, because we have this great army, and they're helpless against that...

      Oh, wait, bad example.

      French and German citizens are not threatened by terrorists because the US Army protects them from them...

      No, still bad example; we don't do anything about that at all.

      Hm, now, how is it exactly that we are protecting France, Germany, and the rest of Europe? And, er, does it count if we're doing it against their will (see EU opposition to military action against Iraq)? And can we parse out what attacks are *based on* their alliance with us and our bullying tactics, vs. what they'd incur of their own accord if we weren't helping?

      --
      Don't you wish your girlfriend was a geek like me?
  2. overtime issues by kbs · · Score: 5, Insightful

    What I've found (and this isn't really a California thing, but more like something I've found regularly at companies) is that overtime isn't mandatory, but if you have a deadline, you need to finish your responsibility by then. If you can do it within the normal work hours, then great! More power to you! But if you can't, it would reflect badly on you if you didn't put in the extra time, despite the fact the company doesn't pay for overtime. It's one of those "you're doing it because you want to, not because we're making you" despite the fact that you are really in a situation where you need to in order not to get a bad review.

    --
    yours,
    kbs
    1. Re:overtime issues by forsetti · · Score: 4, Insightful

      In some circumstances, I would agree with you, however, most of the time I find myself burning the midnight oil because management decids to ignore the technical recommendations and have set unrealistic deadlines

      --
      10b||~10b -- aah, what a question!
    2. Re:overtime issues by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful
      And it was also a good idea for coal miners to put in that extra effort to get the extra ton of coal mined by the time they left for the day. Not because they make you, but because you wanted to. Heck, we're not making you work 16 hours today, you just want to to fulfill an obligation you feel you owe to the company. Overtime? You're exempt!

      Sorry, but no. Exempt status is the new slavery. It shouldn't exist. All people should be paid hourly, period. If you work more than 40 hours a week for any reason you earn time and a half. Life in America would be a lot better for families if mom and dad weren't expected to put in 80 hours a week for their base salary with the threat of being fired looming over their head. Your number one obligation is to the people you love, your family, friends, etc. Work doesn't even place a distant second in my opinion. I'll help out if it doesn't effect my family life, but otherwise when my 8 hours are in I leave for the day and forget about work. Companies don't care about you! You're just a resource to be exploited like a machine processing materials.

    3. Re:overtime issues by Stephen+Williams · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You're just a resource to be exploited like a machine processing materials.

      Indeed. Notice how personnel departments are never called "personnel" any more? S'always "human resources" nowadays.

      -Stephen

    4. Re:overtime issues by tftp · · Score: 3, Insightful
      All people should be paid hourly, period.

      Sorry, it can't work this way. For example, one guy is lazy and stupid, and it takes him 3 days to code "Hello World" in Perl. And another guy is -normal- (not even genius), and it takes him 3 hours to do a similar job.

      Now tell me how can I pay them hourly if the lazy guy just relaxes, while the other one works?

      One fair way is to pay per work performed. You estimate some reasonable time needed, you give the assignment, and whenever they finish is up to them. If the lazy guy has to come on weekends, it's his problem.

      The only alternative is to fire the lazy guy. But I fail to see how it helps; and as an employer I really don't mind using lazy guy's help even it comes slower than usual. People are different, and something that is obvious to one may require extensive reading to another.

    5. Re:overtime issues by spRed · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Don't take a job that requires an 80 hour work week.
      If somehow you didn't know 80 hours was expected, or if you were lied to in the job interview then quit.

      You say as much, you have a family and value the time you spend with them so you have a job that doesn't require more than 40 hours a week. That is a mature decision, you made a choice between available alternatives.

      Declaring that there should be justice and plenty for all and the man is trying to keep us down is just plain childish. Ditto for the vague idea that everyone is entitled to their dream job. It doesn't exist, you pick between what is available.

      --
      .sig Karma out the wazoo, better to spend points elsewhere if this is above 2 or below 0
    6. Re:overtime issues by DigiBoi · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That's nice, if you've got somewhere else to move to. I've been searching for a job for months (I'm finishing school in May), and I've yet to have even a second interview with any company, much less a job offer. What more can I do?

      Do what i do. In MN, i got fed up with finding a computer job, so i filed for an S-Corp, and opened up a consulting shop for on-site computer/network repairs and installs. It may not be computer programming, but i charge clients around $100 (less for residential, more for businesses) per hour, minimum 1 hour. you would be surprised how fast throwing up an ad in the newspaper will get the ball rolling.

      i probably wouldnt be doing this if times weren't tough, but this pays my bills and leaves me with some spending money at the end of the day. ive been doing this for almost 2 years now, and if i found a job not working for myself, i would probably continue to do this on the side.

      --
      I put on my robe and wizard hat.
    7. Re:overtime issues by ratamacue · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Companies don't care about you! You're just a resource to be exploited

      Wrong. You are a resource offering your service in exchange for compensation. Employment is a form of trade. By engaging a work contract, you are engaging in trade. It is up to you to determine whether or not your trade is worthwhile. If you don't have enough information to do that, it is up to you to seek employment elsewhere. If you don't have the ability to determine if your trade is worthwhile, then you shouldn't have engaged work contract in the first place. Why exactly should I be punished (via taxes) because you can't make a good decision?

      Smart employers will always care about you, because they care about their investment. To propose that employers don't care about you is to propose that they don't care about their business, which is illogical.

      In a free market, incidentally, employers who don't care about their employees would quickly disappear. Logically, employees will reward the employers who care and punish the ones who don't, through the process of market competition. But we don't operate in a free market. Government is very deeply entangled in the economic system.

    8. Re:overtime issues by Anitra · · Score: 3, Insightful
      I'm a college student, so not all your points apply equally to me, but this is my take:
      • I only apply for jobs I feel I'm qualified for, and for which I have many (if not all) of the skills they're looking for.
      • Any gaps in my work history are because I'm a college student. I've been able to get a job at school twice, and sometimes summer jobs. There's not exactly anything more I can do now to get more "professional experience", especially when I still need to pay my bills (ie. I can't afford unpaid work).
      • I do as best I can in the interview. It's hard to be confident because I have so little experience.
      • I don't think I'm a nerd. I'm certainly not perfect. I'm female, but there's nothing I can change about that to convince interviewers I can do the job.
      --

      Have you read the Moderation Guidelines Addendum?
  3. Go on strike! by forgoil · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The situation for people working in the US seems to be quite bad, at least to me. Isn't it time you guys start a proper union and start raising some hell?

    And how much paid vacation time I get per year? 6 weeks. How many weeks do you get in the states? And yes, I am only 26.

    Complain, make it better, do something (and get free Coca Cola as mandatory).

    (and if you happen to run a cool and nice company, with proper benefits, consider hiring me;))

    1. Re:Go on strike! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      What worries me most is hearing of some of the shocking states of workers in the US. and mod me down for complaining about things worth complaining about. Seems every askslashdot with questions about work conditions brings up the "be glad you have a job" comments.

      Yes, be glad you have a job... then in 15 years after y'all are continually 'glad just to have a job' and being paid less and less, working longer hours, with less benefits and worse conditions... it gets closer and closer to not having a worthwhile job at all

      No I'm not in the US, yes I'm employed, and I'm earning a decent amount without insane overtime expectations because my co-workers and I won't take shit from our employers. We'll accept when there are hard times or projects that need extreme amounts of dedication to finish, but as for consistent long term crap... no way.

  4. Re:Mandatory overtime payment by Sparr0 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Maybe you misunderstand. Overtime isnt something you can give up. The law REQUIRES the company to pay you at 1.5x your normal rate of pay for time over 40 hours a week. It does not provide an option for you to opt for TOIL or any other alternative compensation.

  5. Not getting paid? WTH by myom · · Score: 5, Insightful

    IT businesses in USA seem to be the western equivalent to Nike sweat shops. Why would you NOT get paid for spending the remaining hours of your already limited time off work? Here in the communist soviet nordic countries, and most civilized EU countries, you get paid 150% or 200% of the hourly wage. And before you start talking about bringing down companies to their knees by them actually paying their workers, last time I checked, the nordic software/tech companies are doing just fine. But here I guess the terrorists have already won or what?

  6. Re:What are you going to do though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Hah, yeah like in Italy where nobody below manager can be fired. And look what an economic powerhouse Italy is!

    Having job protection makes the worker feel better, but it hurts the economy (Sometimes employers just have to cut 5000 jobs to stay afloat - is it better for the company to go out of business because it's paying a bunch of dead weights?) and it eliminates healthy competition.

  7. Re:What are you going to do though. by sabinm · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Just one question -- what is the benefit of the economy at the other extreme -- take for instance unlimited power of executives -- is that good for the economy? Enron, WorldCom, anyone? The truth is too much power on either side will destroy the economy. Controls are put on both labor and capital because both sides will try to exploit the weakness of the free market and loot the unaware. I have been on both sides of the equation. Don't be too eager to take any side of this argument. Neither are justified in using people and resources as if there were no consequences to their poorly executed decisions

    --
    http://cincyboys.blogspot.com/ Everything Cincinnati. Including the word 'Finnih'
  8. Re:I would say by caseydk · · Score: 3, Insightful



    Riiight. This has worked so well in Europe. In many countries (Denmark and France, IIRC) they have rules like this and their unemployment is skyrocketing.

    Between this and California's new "download tax" I guess they want to be sure no tech development EVER happens there again.

  9. "Be glad you have a job" by Anitra · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The reason you hear "be glad you have a job" so often is not a surprise: many Slashdotters are OUT OF WORK, and have been for a while. It's also the reason why those currently employed are scared to speak up: they think they'll have a hard time finding a new job, too.

    The tech sector has a glut of qualified people; it's the law of supply and demand. Bad news for me, as I'm about to graduate with a degree in CS.

    I'm glad you're employed, and I'm glad you won't take any crap from your employers. But you can afford to feel that way. I bet if you did get fired, you'd be able to find another job pretty quickly.

    --

    Have you read the Moderation Guidelines Addendum?
  10. Re:Mandatory overtime payment by BWJones · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It certainly does where I work. If you hit a certain salary grade, they don't pay you overtime - you get TOIL instead.

    I'm sorry, but this is laughable on one hand. In my fields, medicine and science, folks with earned doctorates (Ph.D.'s & M.D.'s) routinely get paid a pittance (~$30k) while piling on more hours than most folks can imagine (100-120 hrs/week). Granted, everyone wants to make more money, and there should be limits placed upon the amount of time one should have to work, but when I hear dudes making $75-80k/year bitching because they are not getting paid time and a half for the "extra" 5 hours a week they are working, I just have to shake my head and wonder what I have gotten myself into.

    --
    Visit Jonesblog and say hello.
  11. Re:Public Companies part of the problem? by smack_attack · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The true purpose is to allow the rich to gamble under the guise of investing.

    When the rich invest in the stock market, it's never a gamble.

    --

    Hammer of Truth
  12. Re:I would say by FatherOfONe · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It kinda comes down to this. If you believe that employers will not screw their employees to make a profit, and that those employees could "just find another job"; then you also believe that these laws are a bad idea. However, if you believe that employers will screw their employees at the drop of a hat for a profit, then you want protection laws.

    There is a balance somewhere. In the U.S. there have been MANY instances where employers have screwed their employees, and that has lead to child labor laws and unions. Unfortunately quite a few lazy people seem to want to take advantage of companies. The real problem is greed.

    I kinda laugh at some of the companies around here that talk about "retirement" benifits. Yeah RIGHT!

    I saw many times Dow Chemical move "older" employees around the country when they started to get close to retirement. They tried hard to get them to quit... I could go on.... Like how the automotive industry actually killed people who wanted to start up a union... But on the other hand I see union auto workers today that make a slug look like the greatest worker in the world...

    --
    The more I learn about science, the more my faith in God increases.