Slashdot Mirror


Software/Hardware FPGA Dev Board that runs Linux

bforsse writes "The ML300 allows engineers to develop hardware with HDL synthesis/simulation and software with standard GNU tools. The entire system is implemented inside one FPGA with an integrated IBM PPC processor. The board comes with all the peripherals that a standard motherboard or laptop has and then some. It currently ships with MontaVista Linux, a number of other linux flavors and OSs are in the pipeline. Maybe this new merging of the hardware and software worlds will settle some of the religious wars between hw and sw engineers?...ok, maybe not."

208 comments

  1. funny... by jda487 · · Score: 5, Funny

    ...the term 'engineer' is used very loosely when you are refering to software engineers...

    1. Re:funny... by schwep · · Score: 1, Troll

      ...the term 'funny' is used very loosely by the ignorant masses - especially when talking about things they don't know very much about...

    2. Re:funny... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      considering how fat most hardware guys are, 'ignorant masses' is a good term... ;-)

    3. Re:funny... by Kentamanos · · Score: 1

      I agree to some point...

      Well, if you want to get technical, if you're not a certified P.E., then some people say you shouldn't call yourself an engineer.

    4. Re:funny... by WhaDaYaKnow · · Score: 4, Interesting

      ...the term 'engineer' is used very loosely when you are refering to software engineers...

      Well that's what hardware engineers think when the software engineer disagrees to install MS-DOS 3.3 to test the hardware. ;-)

      Seriously though, I've been through two board bringups, both Intel Architecture.

      The first board was considered 'done' by the hardware guys, after it booted DOS. I told them that that was not really a test, and sure enough months (and numerous patch wires) later we finally were able to use _all_ the features on the board and boot Linux and Win95.

      On the second board I was most impressed with the software tools hardware guys used. NOT! Although the board was more or less up and running I found a couple of places where transmits were connected to transmits and receives to receives. I asked why the schematic capture tools didn't catch such obvious mistakes. I know the software can, but quite honestly, all the software used for hardware design feels like it was written by, uh, hardware guys. :-O

      Seriously though, the software tools that hardware engineers use leave a lot to be desired (I mean, the last board I worked on was in 2002 and they used a DOS based program to do the layout for peet's sake)

      In defense of the hardware engineer though, he'd use symbols provided by the manufacturer and they, for some reason, could not be bothered to indicated the type of signal a pin has properly (e.g. input, output, bidir, etc..)

      Until today I never understand why they'd risk the change of having to do a new rev of a board vs the cost of spending a few minutes to create the symbols properly.

      Then again, I've seen software 'engineers' do the same stupid stuff. ;-)

    5. Re:funny... by Anonvmous+Coward · · Score: 1

      ".the term 'engineer' is used very loosely when you are refering to software engineers..."

      Dilbert: "You're mighty brave in cyberspace, flame boy."

    6. Re:funny... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      n 1: a person who uses scientific knowledge to solve practical problems. So you become an engineer and not just a programmer when you get a CS degree?

    7. Re:funny... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      I'll use that one next time I get in an argument with the city engineering department (I work across the hall from them as manager of systems engineering). Although when I'm really being a smartass, I remind them that the Latin root of engineer is "ingenium", which at one time simply meant "ability", and later came to mean "one who contrives".

      If things really get ugly, I mention that neither department is operating engines, so really, we should all STFU! I'm changing the name of the division anyway, but not because those punks want me too ;-)

    8. Re:funny... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ooh, I'm an engineer. I'm very good at contrived arguments.

      In fact, all lawyers are therefore decreed engineers. You thought THIS was a religious war.

    9. Re:funny... by anubi · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Seriously though, the software tools that hardware engineers use leave a lot to be desired (I mean, the last board I worked on was in 2002 and they used a DOS based program to do the layout for peet's sake)

      I work in circuit design all the time, and I use DOS based tools for schematic, PCB layout, and circuit analysis (spice). Why?

      Most of the stuff I do links to stuff I have done before. I have no trouble with my DOS tools re-opening files say 10 years old. I also know that I will be able to see my files 10 years from now if I play my cards right and do *not* "upgrade".

      Processors change. Although my schematic capture program requires an 8088 or better, both the PCB layout and circuit analyzer require at least an 80386. As processors changed, I simply copied the files to a directory on the new machine and they run. No "installation" or registry entries, authorization codes, or the like. They just run.

      The libraries on all of the programs are user configurable. As any new parts come out, I simply enter the configuration into the library.

      No user authentication. These programs were coded in a day where there was not all this emphasis on piracy - I am free to move these programs around to any machine I get my hands on. And because the family of machines I use all run the exact same software, the files can be read/modified/written on any machine without need of version controls. It was common in those days to buy a "site license".

      The programs are quite small. The schematic editor, along with all its libraries, and a good sized project's worth of files will all fit on a 1.4 Megabyte bootable floppy! The spice analyzer requires 1 floppy, and the PCB layout program requires three floppies. None of the programs require any sort of "installation", per se. Just make a subdirectory for them, copy them over, and run the appropriate .exe file and start work.

      But the part I like best is that I intimately understand what these programs are doing. If something goes amiss somewhere, I know where to look. Their file structures are pretty simple; if something goes amiss, I can usually patch it with a hexadecimal file editor.

      If I want the file in another format, its usually not all that difficult to pull up the C++ compiler and code a little file converter.

      The schematic editor and spice analyzer are wide open to debuggers, but the people who made the PCB editor got crafty and made theirs hard to debug- just thank goodness they coded it well and there was only one instance where their program needed debugging. ( For those of you who have ever had to use what passes for technical support, you may find the time better spent learning how to fix it yourself.) But this was five years ago.. today fixing it yourself is illegal in many cases as a result of the congresscritters foisting DMCA on us.

      I know its fashionable for me to say I run the latest systems. If the later systems actually gave me better results, I would gladly switch, but all I see out there is I would be throwing away a trusted and faithful system to get more problems than I could shake my proverbial stick at.

      My take on this is that my tools are precisely that: tools. It took me 12 years of education before I could even emit a coherent sentence in English. It took me 5 years in front of a keyboard before I typed halfway worth a damm. What I am trying to say is that although hardware and software complexity has grown by leaps and bounds, I have not. It still takes me a helluva long time to learn how to use this stuff. If I spent all this time learning how to play a piano fluently, I feel foolish going onto stage with a clarinet. My job is not learning new tools all the time, its applying what I know to get a job done. Would you want a seasoned old mechanic using his grandpa's wrench on your car, or somebody with the latest 200HP pneumatic tool seating the oil-drain plug? ( I use that as an example because they did it to me... that car never stopped leaking oil once they improperly used that power wrench on my car.)

      If what I am doing is bad, I guess it won't matter much - as this is my last decade I think I will be in the job force. This grandpa is about ready for pasture.

      --
      "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]

    10. Re:funny... by cybergibbons · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Hardware design tools tend to be extremely poor. Doing an EE degree, you get to use quite a few of them, and soon realise that no proper software engineer could have been involved in the design of these tools.

      Shall I show some examples?

      • Open/Save/etc. dialogs that always start from the same directory (eg. something nested really deeply in the windows directory). This is common in programs which require you to open many files, eg. VHDL compilers.
      • Context senstive menu bars... Altera Max Plus does this. The menu bar changes depending which window you are in. It makes options that affect other windows only accessible from others. It changes the order of the menu bar. Very annoying.
      • Old style open/save dialog boxes from win 3.11 era that don't have Desktop and all those other buttons....
      • Meaningless errors all over the shop... they don't reflect on the design you are working on, but still, get in the way.
      • Ok/Cancel pop ups after every single stage in the compilation/simulation process. This would be good if it took hours and I wanted to stop it, but these things pop up, always in the centre of the screen, away from where you are using the mouse. Why?
      • Horrible visual design (Synplify)... the buttons on the screen are entirely random sizes. Looks like it was programmed by kids, there is no consistency between one screen and another, so you have to hunt for buttons.
      • Huge amounts of windows (Modelsim) - if you are simulating a design, you can end up with over 20 windows open, all seperate, and it gets very confusing, especially with some of them not having any informative information (such as the name of the file) on the taskbar button.
      • Assuming that you work at a given resolution (eg. 1024x768). Most development environments benefit greatly from being used on high resolutions... but when the designed of the software assumed you would use one resolution alone, you end up with tiny text, things that look very odd when maximised etc.
      • Different implementations of VHDL - what works in one compiler may not in others. This can lead to tearing hair out.
      • Stupidly expensive - some of these packages cost more than $10,000... you think they would work better.
      • I could go on and on and on...

      Essentially, there are so many stupid, small mistakes in the user interfaces in these pieces of software, that it leads to people making mistakes. The less time you have to spend using them the better, so designs don't get tested or verified fully....

    11. Re:funny... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Last halloween, I went to the mall where a store had opened up just for the occasion to sell costumes and other halloween accessories.

      I was both disappointed and amused at the fact the star trek T-shirts I liked so much came in only one size: extra-extra large.

    12. Re:funny... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      if you're not a certified P.E., then some people say you shouldn't call yourself an engineer

      On the other hand, many people say that if you're not a Certified Professional Engineer, then you shouldn't call yourself a Certified Professional Engineer.

      When I call myself a Software Engineer, there's really no confusion or deception so I think it's alright. My clients aren't looking for a Certified Professional Engineer. Those guys generally (there are exceptions) build bridges and cars and nuclear power plants and electronic circuits. The obvious alternative labels for me would be Computer Scientist (acceptable, but it sounds rather academic and either theoretical- or research-oriented) or Programmer (acceptable, but it doesn't emphasize requirements analysis, specification, design, QA, etc.).

    13. Re:funny... by jeff_bond · · Score: 1
      On the second board I was most impressed with the software tools hardware guys used. NOT! Although the board was more or less up and running I found a couple of places where transmits were connected to transmits and receives to receives. I asked why the schematic capture tools didn't catch such obvious mistakes. I know the software can, but quite honestly, all the software used for hardware design feels like it was written by, uh, hardware guys. :-O

      I'm a hardware engineer, and I have to agree somewhat about hardware EDA tools. They do suck much more than SW design tools.

      'Compiling' (i.e. synthesising, layout, drc etc) of a hardware ASIC design is much more hands on and time consuming that compiling software (ie. type 'make'), and I guess that's why hardware design tools seem to be much more primitive.

      And on top of all that, hardware is expected to work after the first full compile (i.e. taping out a chip).

      Jeff

      --
      stty erase ^H
    14. Re:funny... by eod · · Score: 1

      As anyone who has tried some hw-design software knows, all of them suck. And what is most annoying is that they cost, alot! So why don't anyone good at sw develop a good hw program?

      I have been thinking many times how such a program should be designed, but I don'r have the time. And I don't know how to do it better than the programs that exists.

    15. Re:funny... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you mean "for Pete's sake". It's referring to St. Peter.

    16. Re:funny... by p3d0 · · Score: 1
      If I spent all this time learning how to play a piano fluently, I feel foolish going onto stage with a clarinet.
      Nicely put.
      --
      Patrick Doyle
      I mod down every jackass who puts his moderation policy in his sig. Oh, wait a sec....
    17. Re:funny... by ryanvm · · Score: 1

      I mean, the last board I worked on was in 2002 and they used a DOS based program to do the layout for peet's sake.

      That statement literally makes me cringe. Do you remember the growing pains that so many programs had as they transitioned between the trusty DOS versions and the first and second (and often current) Windows versions? Programs that did the job perfectly fine turned into a complete fucking mess when ported to Windows. Remember how bank tellers used to fly at keyboard entry? Now you have to watch them point and click and click and click...

      Just because a program runs under DOS does not make it inferior.

    18. Re:funny... by radish · · Score: 1

      I call myself an engineer because I am a Master of Engineering, according to my University's Faculty of Engineering.

      But maybe they're wrong.

      --

      ---- Den ene knappen er powerknapp, den andre er Bender voice knapp "Bite My Shiny Metal Ass"

    19. Re:funny... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      damn straight man.. all this point and click is driving me mad.

      My favorite example of what you are saying is the transition of Wordperfect for DOS to Windows. And all this UI design that REQUIRES the mouse. The software company I work for does stuff like this and I get furious. I just thank god that I'm not the user.

    20. Re:funny... by GooberToo · · Score: 1

      It's even worse for non-software engineers. After all, we all know those are the guys driving the train.

      Choooo...Chooooo.....

    21. Re:funny... by stevew · · Score: 1

      Actually, You've spotted the problem with software engineering in general! We've had tools that did the job on DOS (640K limit and all) that were MORE than adequate for better than 10 years.
      Yet - look at the Windows versions of these things. They cost 3x as much minimum, take 100x more memory to run(I get to count the OS here!).

      Why - poor software engineering practice! You can put a fair amount of blame on the bloat directly at MS's feet. Fine. Still, software guys just add layer upon layer upon layer without ever cleaning up after themselves (See OSI model as proof of concept ;-)

      Nowadays - I use RTL to do chip design. The tools don't advance to much for the simple fact that there is lack of competition and people are afraid of touching a big bulky piece of software that happens to work. The synthesis tool in particular has a repetition that for every feature they add, they broke three, and the new featuer won't REALLY work for two or three releases.

      As for software that operates like EE's desiged them. You guys have never seen the HP500 logic analyzer user's interface. Looks like a software guy designed it. I've been griping about that for a decade too! ;-)

      --
      Have you compiled your kernel today??
    22. Re:funny... by svirre · · Score: 1

      you seem to primarily focus on shortcomings in the GUIs of the tools. You should realise that the GUI is not the primary UI of these tools. Practcally all EDA tools are script based (usually tcl) and anyone who use them for real will hardly ever use the GUI.

      Performance and quality of results are much more important than GUI niceties.

      As for the price, I think you left out a zero. While there are a few tools that costs as little as $10000, prices of $100000-$400000 are not uncommon.

    23. Re:funny... by Glock27 · · Score: 1
      [real world computer use account snipped]

      Yes, we computer folk are (or should be) constantly reminded that "if ain't broke don't fix it" (or pay for it!) is a good axiom for most people.

      I think some of the points you made directly apply to the rush to get EE oriented tools onto Linux. No one can ever declare an old version "obsolete", and I'm pretty sure you'll be able to get x86 hardware to run it for many, many years (i'd guess at least 50, and perhaps 100,000;).

      Contrast that to Windows where "OS Design du Jour" is the rule...and there is a constant commercial push to generate churn.

      Linux rocks!

      --
      Galileo: "The Earth revolves around the Sun!"
      Score: -1 100% Flamebait
    24. Re:funny... by iabervon · · Score: 1

      I certainly hope your computer doesn't break down, because it'll be really hard these days to get a replacement system that can run your software. You might want to look into Linux for that reason: it can emulate DOS (and may be able to run your software natively-- I remember seeing a *nix version of spice), and supports available hardware.

      Hopefully, the seasoned old mechanic will be able to use a brand-new titanium wrench if his grandpa's old one finally gets lost. For that matter, switching to a lighter but equally strong material might be a good idea anyway.

    25. Re:funny... by Cramer · · Score: 1

      For actual board layout, yes, that's scripted. But the actual process of designing a circuit is not done with vi; it's done in the schematic designer GUI.

      I guess you'd call me "very old school"... I prefer pencil and paper to any software tools. I can do things much faster and with a great deal less stress by hand. (with the exception of PCB layout. that takes forever by hand.)

    26. Re:funny... by Cramer · · Score: 1

      Hardware people don't design software; software people don't design hardware. So, neither is in a good position to help the other.

    27. Re:funny... by vovin · · Score: 1

      Actually this shows that a software group *did* design it. Unfortunatly the software group has a total of 0 hours in the hardware domain and simply didn't have a clue as to HOW the product is to be used.

    28. Re:funny... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      For digital circuits, he's right. For synthesis, you don't need the GUI at all, for Synopsys' tools at least. You just run a script and the synthesis and static timing step are taken care of. For place and route and layout, you'd still have to use Cadence's tools. I'll tell you though, Cadence tools have far better GUI than Synopsys does.

      For analog circuits (ASIC) naturally, the GUI is important.

    29. Re:funny... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      First contact with advanced EDA tools can be quite shocking. But after some use the GUI starts to make sense. For example many layout tools use strokes and if you don't know how to use them, you really can't do real work with the tools.

      Few points about the tools. You only do some random hacking with the GUI usually. Real runs are done trough scripts. And I have not seen many tools that want you to press OK after each step :)

      I like synplify user interface. It is very clear and usable compared to many other synthesis tools. Synopsys DA has the worst UI :)

      And as a long time Modelsim user, those windows are needed. I have sometimes tens of wave windows open and it's not a problem to navigate them. Modelsim actually has one of the best GUIs among simulators. ActiveHDL/Riviera has also good GUI.

      And you should add one or two zeroes to the price tags. With $10k you can't get any real tools. Also part of the price is support, and usually the support actually works. Someone answers to the bug reports and if you are important enough customer the bugs get fixed quite quickly (some vendors even do private releases of the tools sometimes).

    30. Re:funny... by anubi · · Score: 1
      You hit pretty well on the points I was trying to make. I run right now with these "ancient" programs on an array of Pentiums at present. The programs run like blazes. I have tried to catch them trying to redraw the screen, but its done by the time the next frame is to be displayed. The last time I wanted a few more computers ( six, actually ) in the lab, I just went down to Micro Center and picked them up for $29.95 apiece. Pentium 166's w/ 32MB, but for me they were way more than adequate.

      Maybe I have been experiencing unusual statistical failures, but I have yet to have a computer fail on me. For that matter, I have yet to even have a disk drive fail ( although I have seen other people's fail - I think because they had something wrong with their system configurations that caused the endless seeking on the hard drive - such as paging caused by insufficient RAM. ) I have had the boards fail for analog reasons, mostly failing electrolytic capacitors, which I have elaborated on in other posts on this board, but I have yet to have the processor itself go on me. The closest thing I have had to a failure is an old video digitizer I had, which had cooling problems since the day it was out of the box, failed for thermal reasons, and I had an interface board fail because the old nickel-cadmium battery on the motherboard decided to rupture one day and eject its contents all over said interface board. All in all, even though I can get venomous at times with Microsoft, I think Intel's done a helluva job.

      And yes, you mentioned Linux for running DOS. Heh, heh. This is Slashdot. Thats one of the main reasons I am having to abandon the big guys at Redmond. I know they wanna kill their old baby that put them where they are. The thing that got me started in Linux is they *are* configurable to do many things.. including supporting the old guys that Microsoft is no longer interested in. Trying to sell me a Microsoft product or Linux is to me the difference between a calculator and a computer. A calculator will provide whatever functions its maker provided it with. A computer will provide whatever functions you can dream up and teach it. Given my choice between a calculator and a computer, I'll take the computer.

      You remark about the old wrench getting lost.. right on! I no longer use the original platforms the software was designed for. My PC's and XT's are long gone. Yes, Intel makes some of the neatest wrenches I ever did see. Thank goodness they made it where it would fit my legacy bolts. The neat thing about software - especially sofware written so you can open it up and fix it if you need to, is that it never breaks.. so with adequate backup ( and believe me, I am backed up "six ways from Sunday"), I should be able to use this software until I go to my grave.

      I have been really impressed with the "OpenGL" graphics stuff. I did not have that luxury under DOS ( albeit I did have other luxuries such as user definable character sets and being able to play with the 6845 registers in real-time.).

      I am "betting my farm" on Linux. I trust these guys to do it right and leave things open, so that the system can be programmed with what *we*, rather than some *authority* wants it to do.

      Thanks for replying to my post. I appreciate it.

      --
      "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]

    31. Re:funny... by anubi · · Score: 1
      Thanks for the reply.

      Yeh, I am a bit miffed with what you so appropriately named "OS Design du Jour". That is the Microsoft paradigm that really gets to me. I've come to consider Microsoft products much as I would consider building materials.

      If I am building something, say seating at the Rose parade, I really don't care if it is compatible with anything else. It only has to last a day. I want cheap. So, whatever gets the seating in place for the day at the lowest price takes it. Compatibility with what has been and what will be is the least of my worries. People need a seat. Now. To heck with tomorrow. Its all going to the trash heap tomorrow anyway. This calls for a "Seating du Jour" approach.

      But if I am planning a major sports venue, I may want the seating to last for a century or so. I will use a completely different approach to my choice of seating design.

      Let me relate. One example.

      In the lab, we have steel shelving. Steel "Equipto". Kinda like a big "erector set".

      When the shelving arrived, it came with screws. I would not let them assemble the shelves with the screws supplied, as I knew the screw slots would get buggered and the shelves would soon be hard to adjust. I purchased several dozen boxes of 1/4" hex bolt and nut sets, as well as several 5 pound boxes of 1/4" washers from Home Depot. And told them to assemble the shelves with that. So years later, whenever something needs changing, no big deal, I have a whole drawer full of the 7/16 wrenches that fit either the bolt or the nut, as well as boxes of nuts, bolts, and washers. And it fits the whole lab. If they have a lot of shelves to adjust, there is a Makita power drill in one of the drawers with a 7/16" socket already on it. Everyone knows what its for.

      A little foresight saved everybody a lot of problems. If something needs changing, everyone's free to change it as they see fit. Kinda like no sense losing a nights sleep cause the cover's tangled.

      The main problem we have to focus on is the problem our customer enlisted us to help him with.

      Getting our infrastructure to help us do that should NOT be a problem.

      --
      "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]

    32. Re:funny... by anubi · · Score: 1
      We've had tools that did the job on DOS (640K limit and all) that were MORE than adequate for better than 10 years.

      I am very pleased with the gems I have.

      I love my old DOS schematic editor.

      Its only 100K or so.. but it does exactly what I need it to. No more. No less.

      It lets me draw my schematics on the screen. It lets me use any part I put in the library. It keeps tabs on which pin of which part connects to which pin of any other part, and if that pin is an input, output, tristate, or open collector.

      If I move a part on the screen, it has enough sense to keep the connections intact. If it can't visually do so on the display, it will try anyway but turn the connection red so I have a chance to go back and redo the graphical layout so the lines do not visually lay on top of each other. In no event though will it corrupt the netlist itself because it could not graphically present it on the screen.

      When I get through, it will provide me a netlist of all the parts I defined/used, listing which pin(s) of cells connects to which pin(s) of other cells. Generic as can be. In addition to "pins", any cell can have up to 255 other "attributes" assigned to it by attribute number. Most of the time, I assign attributes to things like part numbers, value, tolerance, voltage ratings, etc.. but its wide open.. I can assign anything to anything as I see fit. I can spread my design across as many pages as I want. One of my more complicated designs was something like 42 pages. I can even give several different cells spanning various pages the same name, and as long as its different pins, the program recognizes them as really being the same cell. Even if I give it the same pin, the program will make the correct connection, but flag it as a duplicate pin usage to alert me to a possible error. That makes it really handy when I am designing in a multipurpose ASIC where one physical package may be present in many drawing subsets. Sure makes way for nice clean schematics free of clutter from related, but non-involved circuitry. The program is Futurenet. Dash-2 . Unfortunately, I have not seen it for sale for ten years now.

      And my screen's total area is dedicated to showing me the graphical workspace. I get so annoyed when the new Windows programs clutter up my display real estate so much with graphical gadgets that I am left working through a tiny little hole in the screen that they left for me to work in. Kinda like trying to fix the plumbing through a little 6" hole in the wall.

      Only thing I can really say now is I am glad I was around to snare these as they passed. I do not see anything like these anymore.

      I guess we all have a tendency to want to use what we are familiar with. I get to see the new stuff and compare it to what I already have and get to make the decision on what I use and what I pass up. I liked the new processors.. I now have all Pentiums. But I did not like the new software all that much.. I really liked my old stuff better.

      Yeh, people say that by using the old stuff, I am incompatible, but let two or three years pass, did it make any difference? Given two years, who else is going to read any files they made a couple of years ago, or in two more years, will they even be able to read files they create today? I can do either. I have the utmost confidence my files can be read as long as anyone maintains the systems to do so. The software is perpetual. It was done right.

      I guess I think of the software much as I think of the brick I used when I built my patio supports. I did this about 20 years ago. The patio supports are still there. They are still doing what they were designed to do. And I expect when they put me in my grave, the patio supports will still be there. Doing what I designed them to do. I feel I designed them right, because, frankly, I am too damned lazy to think of having to rip up the patio to re-do them.

      You know, I think I remember that old logic analyzer you referenced. If I recall that one correctly, I had a fit with it. I always thought HP made great test oscillators and spectrum analyzers, but it seems they never got the hang of making either oscilloscopes ( they never did seem to master the art of making it sync ) or logic analyzers. I liked my old Dolch better. ( and it wasn't quite the cat's meow either ). I do not think anyone ever surpassed Tektronix in making a user-friendly scope.

      --
      "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]

    33. Re:funny... by stevew · · Score: 1

      Well -your first mistake is using all this GUI nonsense! I use the command line pretty much ALL the time. The ONLY GUI I use for chip design is the waveform viewer, i.e the equivalent of a logic analyzer. That's it!

      Who CARES about human interfaces when all you have to do is type "verilog -f files"

      --
      Have you compiled your kernel today??
    34. Re:funny... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I also worked for a company that was primariliy in the business of making hardware, but had to have software to sell their hardware. All the hardware bugs were pushed on to us Software engineers, to fix in software, but when the product ships, they take all the credit for shipping "bug free" hardware.

    35. Re:funny... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you dont like it, dont use it. You dont have to boot Windows

    36. Re:funny... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thats what the JVM basically does. A software processor to run software program on hardware, giving you hardware independence. One of these days, all you'd have to do is to design hardware that implements the JVM features, and you can run all the Java apps on it natively. I wonder if the Transmeta chip will do this in the future. They have an execution core and a translation layer to adopt to different instruction sets, so if they write a Java to Transmeta translation layer, you got a native Java chip.

  2. As an electrical engineer, I know that... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    VHDL is a tool of terror! Especially when put in the hands of those lunix cyberterrorists! These terrorists and their sympathizers are an affront to American liberty, justice, and equality for all non-Muslims. I strongly urge the Right Honourable Prime Minister George Williamson Bush, Junior to pass binding legislation which would put an end to these un-American activities.

    P.S. I have similar views on the 3rd world clone chip manufacturer, AMD.

    1. Re:As an electrical engineer, I know that... by Boone^ · · Score: 1

      You're right, VHDL is a tool of the terrorists. That's why sane people use verilog.

      (but real people still draw the geometry)

    2. Re:As an electrical engineer, I know that... by eod · · Score: 1

      With the current place and route programs that is a good idea... They place the cells all over the die.

      And about drawing geometry, no other options if you want to use your silicon to the limit. At least you have to design the logic cells used in place and route the HDL generated netlist.

    3. Re:As an electrical engineer, I know that... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      VHDL must mean Very Hardcore Destructive Language ;)

      Actually VHDL is a tool to fight high terrorism. The average script kiddy is going to get so frustrated by a language that has been evolved from a military specification language that they would bother someone else.

  3. here we go again by carpe_noctem · · Score: 1

    Wow, bforsee works for xilinx. Looks like another slashvertisment to me.

    --
    "Quoting famous computer scientists out of context is the root of all evil (or at least most of it) in programming." - K
  4. Yeah, sure. by modecx · · Score: 5, Funny

    The board comes with all the peripherals that a standard motherboard or laptop has and then some.

    With a $6k price tag, it should come with a high class hooker.

    --
    Constitutional rights may be respected, repealed, or modified; but they must never be ignored.
    1. Re:Yeah, sure. by WolfWithoutAClause · · Score: 1
      Actually, if you're considering buying a lot of them, the sales team throws that in for free.

      Actually, you're the one that... oh never mind.

      --

      -WolfWithoutAClause

      "Gravity is only a theory, not a fact!"
    2. Re:Yeah, sure. by statusbar · · Score: 1

      Actually, a "High Class Hooker" is much more expensive that $6k.

      http://www.educatedescort.com/

      $12K/day, 2 day min.

      --jeff++

      --
      ipv6 is my vpn
    3. Re:Yeah, sure. by baywulf · · Score: 2, Interesting

      If you want a cheaper FPGA board, then try out the following company. They have some decent boards for under $100 though no microprocessor is included.

      http://www.digilentinc.com/

    4. Re:Yeah, sure. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What ever happened to Anne Marie, anyway? I doubt anyone could get those rates in today's Silicon Valley.

    5. Re:Yeah, sure. by battjt · · Score: 1

      Anyone have any experience with this stuff? Can I really buy this board and build a circuit to do calculations for ~$100?

      I want to experiment with converting programming logic into hardware.

      Joe

      --
      Joe Batt Solid Design
    6. Re:Yeah, sure. by Asprin · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Dude, I'm not sure who she is, but is there a reason why her web page has a Slashdot banner on her links page?

      --
      "Lawyers are for sucks."
      - Doug McKenzie
    7. Re:Yeah, sure. by modecx · · Score: 1

      Cool! Thanks for the info! I have been looking for some boards like this to do some experimenting with FPGAs. I've always been disturbed by the cost of referance boards from xilinx, et. al. (I think for $6K+ I'd rather invest in a new Ducati or something), and I'm not typically a hardware guy... I don't have the skills or patience to roll my own.

      Very helpful! Thanks again!

      --
      Constitutional rights may be respected, repealed, or modified; but they must never be ignored.
    8. Re:Yeah, sure. by statusbar · · Score: 1

      Because she reads slashdot, and there was a front page article about her a few years back. Read the salon article about her.

      --jeff++

      --
      ipv6 is my vpn
    9. Re:Yeah, sure. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can use the MicroBlaze "soft" processor with the $100 Digilent board. http://www.digilentinc.com/assets/documents/d2e_rm .pdf You can put the processor, bus, UART, general purpose IO block to blink LEDs, 7-segment, switches, buttons, also connect to the LCD display or even a VGA port... Note: A "soft" processor is a processor that is implemented using an FPGA's configurable logic blocks.

    10. Re:Yeah, sure. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can use the MicroBlaze "soft" processor with the $100 Digilent board. http://www.digilentinc.com/assets/documents/d2e_rm .pdf You can put the processor, bus, UART, general purpose IO block to blink LEDs, 7-segment, switches, buttons, also connect to the LCD display or even a VGA port... Note: A "soft" processor is a processor that is implemented using an FPGA's configurable logic.

  5. GNU tools? by e__alf · · Score: 3, Informative

    The GNU tools are just for the software part.. the actual FPGA design tools are still covered by what looks like 200 patents (and runs on NT or Solaris)

    But still, me wants! Think about it.. 4 PowerPC cores embedded in a sea of programmable logic? *drool*

    1. Re:GNU tools? by Petrus · · Score: 1

      That's what I was afraid of.

      So, it is not only $5k, but also $5 Sun Workstation (or BSOD interface for $300) and third party tools - such as Synopsis for $xxx,xxx .

      I was just hoping that Xilinx ported its tools from Solaris to Linux and sells it with an evaluation board for mere $5k!

    2. Re:GNU tools? by jaseuk · · Score: 1

      If your going to buy the volume the tools and design will often be thrown in for free.

      Jason

    3. Re:GNU tools? by girmann · · Score: 1

      4 Power PC cores? Well, not quite.

      Actually, the ML300 has the Virtex 2 Pro P7 chip on it, which is only one Power PC core. However, if you wanted to, I'm sure they would sell it to you with the chip that can support the 4 processors, but that chip alone will cost you $6k.

      I guess I'm one of the fortunate ones that is actually getting a sample to play with. Xilinx is coming to visit next week and is dropping one off. I'll tell you how it goes.

      --
      Nietzsche is dead. --God
    4. Re:GNU tools? by morcheeba · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I drooled over this, too. Even though this dev board has just one PPC, there are others with 4.

      But then I found out that the PPC cores are very slow relative to state-of-the-art standalone processors - its in the range IIRC 266-366 MHz each. Even multipling by 4 and it doesn't fare well compared to 1 GHz PPC's. Xilinx explained that the process they were using just didn't allow for fast processors, so I doubt they'll ever catch up.

      What I'd like to see is a 1 GHz 4-PPC core with either no programmable logic or just a little (enough to implement some simple communications fabric and maybe a little left over for a simple coprocessor).

      But, that's just me. This would be more sellable to my old company, which used a Virtex II and a discrete PPC. This combo woould save some realestate (they had 2 Virtex's, 2 ppcs, and a whole lot of other big parts on a 6U VME card; it was crowded!!)

    5. Re:GNU tools? by bforsse · · Score: 1

      Yes, the larger parts have 4 PPC cores, but this board uses a part that has only 1 PPC core. Just wanted to clarify.

  6. Re: REAL funny... by clockwise_music · · Score: 1

    Watch it mate...

  7. Let's get it overwith... by shadwwulf · · Score: 0, Redundant

    1. Get FPGA Prototype
    2. Imagine a Beowulf cluster of them
    3. ???
    4. Profit and note that in Soviet Russi, the PCB prototypes you!

  8. What can you do with it. by jericho4.0 · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Ok. I have a vauge idea what a Field Programmable Gate Array (FPGA) is. I understand that this is a device that can be programmed on the chip level. But I still don't understand what this is, really.

    Can someone with a bit of know-how point us towards some more info?

    --
    "A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming, is not worth knowing" - Alan Perlis
    1. Re:What can you do with it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here's the basic guts, an FPGA can quickly become a dedicated chip, solve a problem as that chip, change to another chip, solve a problem as that chip. It can change chiptype on the order of thousands of times per second. For some applications the morphing capability of the chip makes it highly usable. Neural networks are able to to hardware level simulations. I saw something about a cat brain simulator in Boulder Colorado a year or so ago. Hope it helps.

    2. Re:What can you do with it. by anonymous+cupboard · · Score: 4, Informative
      I don't think there is a single 'HOWTO' on the subject, but essentially an FPGA is a chip with a large array of simple logic gates that may be interconnected in a programmable way. Tools exist to simulate and compile logic expressions into a form where they can be downloaded into an FPGA as a gate interconnection matrix. Once the FPGA has been programmed, it then will execute the logic function.

      As with software, a lot of modules exist (mostly quite expensive) for logic blocks up to and including microprocessor cores. Rather than having a chip with a single function, it is possible to squeeze multiple functions upto the limits imposed by the gate count.

      FPGAs can be reprogrammable, or programmable once only. There is a often fusable link inside that once blown prevents reprogramming or designs to be read out.

      If you are producing quantity, then you can go from an FPGA component to a gate array which is programmed by a photographic mask during manufacture. The mask is prepared from the same program that created the FPGA. The setup costs are high, but once you talk about big numbers of chips, the component becomes significantly cheaper than an FPGA and often better performing.

    3. Re:What can you do with it. by sheddd · · Score: 2, Informative

      It's a Field Programmable Gate Array...

      It's a piece o hardware that you can buy to do stuff (you tell it how to map out a 'virtual processor'). If you had one large enough you could emulate an x86 cpu.

      They're used mostly in applications where (price OR time to market OR development costs) are a big factor. Custom silicon for a custom purpose will always be faster, and cheaper (If you build enough to justify the development costs).

      Flame away, more knowledgeable /.errs; Trying my best with a shallow understanding.

    4. Re:What can you do with it. by kirn_malinus · · Score: 2, Informative
      An FPGA is used to design hardware in it's early stages. It allows hardware engineers to define the hardware on a PC, by drawing schematics and writing descriptions in Hardware Description Languages (HDLs) like Verilog and VHDL. The FPGA software on the PC then links to the FPGA itself (through a serial cable or whatever) and programs an "array of gates" to implement the functionality the designers have defined. What this means, essentially, is that it defines the interconnections between prefabbed gates on a chip to cause them to implement the specified logic.

      It is used in early stages of hardware design to verify timing and functional correctness, and heavily in education. Sometimes final production products will use FPGAs, but usually only when the production volume is low. This is because FPGAs are more expensive per individual unit than ASICs (Application Specific Integrated Circuits), but ASICs require more expense on design costs.

      --
      All circuits busy.
    5. Re:What can you do with it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hmmmm... Potato chips!

    6. Re:What can you do with it. by baywulf · · Score: 3, Informative

      The book "ASIC" has a good chapter on FPGAs. Go to the following link and review chapter 5. http://www.dacafe.com/ASICs.htm

      But the answer your question briefly, the internal structure of the FPGA is an array of computational logic blocks. The boundary between these blocks in the array is routing logic that allows nearly arbitrary connections between the logic blocks. There are also IO blocks at the perimeter of the array. Each logic block typically consists of some combinational logic followed by a register element. The combinational logic element can be programmed to implement arbitrary logic functions of around 4-8 inputs. Thus you can configure a block to be a 1 bit adder, a mux, register, etc. By programming the CLBs and routing between the blocks, an hardware system can be built. You write the hardware description in Verilog, VHDL or schematics capture. Then a synthesizer maps your design to a bit pattern necessary to program the FPGA. You generally program this into the chip or into an external flash memory connected to the FPGA.

    7. Re:What can you do with it. by yukster · · Score: 1

      I'd like to expand on this question. I've been intrigued by FPGA's since I first read about them. To my (admittedly relatively untrained) mind, they seem like the ultimate platform: an infinitely reconfigurable piece of computer hardware. It would seem like an FPGA, with its gates programmed for optimum efficiency for a given task, should be able to kick the pants off a traditional fixed architecture cpu. If this isn't the case, can someone tell me why? Someone once told me that the distances between various virtual components in a configured FPGA slowed things down; is this true? Why don't we see desktops made with these? (I suppose, if FPGAs are really expensive enough to warrant the price tag on this doo-dad, that'd be one reason.) There actually is a company called Star Bridge Systems who make computers with FPGAs. They even promised a "desktop supercomupter" a few years back. But apparently, they've given up on that (or decided that selling a few multi-million dollar supercomputers is better than selling lots of thousand dollar desktops). And even if FPGAs aren't much faster than regular chips, there's something about compiling your code down to the actual gate layout (rather than for a set gate structure) that just seems really, really cool.

    8. Re:What can you do with it. by jeff_bond · · Score: 1
      It would seem like an FPGA, with its gates programmed for optimum efficiency for a given task, should be able to kick the pants off a traditional fixed architecture cpu. If this isn't the case, can someone tell me why?

      FPGAs are slower than ASICs, due in part to the programmable switches used to wire up your design. FPGAs are also many times less dense than a ASIC, again due to the general purpose building blocks, and programmable switches.

      Basically, they're bigger, slower and more expensive than an ASIC

      Jeff

      --
      stty erase ^H
  9. VHDL by Amon+Re · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Does linux even have any good VHDL simulators?

    1. Re:VHDL by dlbowm · · Score: 5, Informative

      Icarus (http://www.icarus.com/eda/verilog/) is a competent Verilog (not VHDL) open source simulator. It even has some support for sythesizing to some FPGA libraries.
      Verilog is more common than VHDL in the US, so this is the only open source HDL tool I've used. Primarily, we are still slaves to Synopsis and Cadence though.

    2. Re:VHDL by Petrus · · Score: 1

      OK. The question is, can these Xilinx tools xpr the RTL design into the xilinx format that can be downloaded to the FPGA on Linux machines, or do I have to run the RTL->xpr on Windows?

      Of course I do not expect Open Source Synopsis any soon.

    3. Re:VHDL by Colonel+Panic · · Score: 3, Informative

      Well, there have been a couple of attempts, but nothing complete...

      Right now the most interesting one is a VHDL frontend for GCC called GHDL.

      Also note that you need a lot more than a simulator to get it to work with this board: you need a synthesis tool that can map into the Xilinx part. The FPGA companies tend to keep their formats quite proprietary, so don't expect any open source tools for synthesis and tech mapping any time soon.... (unfortunately).

    4. Re:VHDL by kinnell · · Score: 1

      Modelsim have been supporting linux for some time. As for free tools, Alliance EDA provide a stripped down version of their simulator for free, but its not as sophisticated.

      --
      If I seem short sighted, it is because I stand on the shoulders of midgets
    5. Re:VHDL by tanveer1979 · · Score: 1

      Cant call ourselves slaves. though only proprietry solutions are there, there is enough competition in the market. Mentor, Synopsys, Cadence... and so on. Open source simulators are not really near yet.
      My guess is that verilog simulators will come out pretty soon, however VHDL will remain in infancy coz more of the hardware ppl are moving on to verilog.

      --
      My Aurora : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o91ZsGwJYyg
      FB : https://www.facebook.com/TanveersPhotography
    6. Re:VHDL by jeff_bond · · Score: 2, Informative
      Does linux even have any good VHDL simulators?

      Certainly, Modelsim

      Jeff

      --
      stty erase ^H
    7. Re:VHDL by imadork · · Score: 1

      I second that remark. Modelsim simply screams on Linux. I use it daily. It seems that for the truly large designs, performance on Linux starts to degrade, but I think that has more to do with bus and memory limitations inherent in the PC architecture (as compared with high-octane Solatis servers that cost > 5x more) . All my recent designs (RTL through post-layout) have gone through Modelsim on Linux, and I'm not going back.

    8. Re:VHDL by GreatBallsOfFire · · Score: 0

      Problem isn't the VHDL simulator, but the development code that only runs on Windows. I've been developing FPGA processors for a bit now, and I'm forced to use Windows as a result. :(

    9. Re:VHDL by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      I'm suprised nobody has mentioned symphony eda's vhdl compiler/simulator. The command-line tools are free and for the price ($199 per node-locked license per year) the graphical interface is good. I just dropped modelsim and aldec in favor of sonata for my fpga design work.

      http://www.symphonyeda.com

  10. Not quite for the masses by dlbowm · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This looks interesting, but way too expensive to break down any barriers in the short term. Actually, being hardware (ASIC) designer, many of the embedded software guys know their hardware as well as the designers. Some, however, need their hands held every step of the way and can't understand why we put all those damned interrupt capabilities in there. Just makes the software harder to write!
    I'd love to see something like this out in the market in a lower price range. It's great to have GNU software tools to write code inexpensively, and to have hardware as well would really be fun and useful. Sharing cool hardware accelerator HDL with others would be great. I've used Icarus recently and it is becoming quite a useable open source alternative to vcs, verilog xl, nc verilog, etc.

    1. Re:Not quite for the masses by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is Xilinx's typical pricing scheme. The top of the line FPGA (Virtex II Pro with 4 PowerPCs in this case) will be several thousands of dollars each. Last year's parts, which have enough nice features themselves including block multipliers and high speed IO will drop in price and work their way into the mainstream. By the time you're done designing 8 million programmable gates the part in question might almost be ready for prime time.

  11. The V2Pro's are very cool parts by nweaver · · Score: 4, Informative

    EG, the XC2VP7 which is used in the core of that board has a PowerPC (>250 MHz), 8 SERDESes which can speak Gb ethernet with optical transievers (among other things), about 100 Kb of RAM, and 11,000 4-LUTs and flip-flops.

    Xilinx promises that at the end of the year, in suitable quantities (>25,000), they will be $100/each.

    --
    Test your net with Netalyzr
    1. Re:The V2Pro's are very cool parts by Norge · · Score: 1

      Hey Nick.

      And maybe if I get off my ass, we'll have a nice language with which to program the things, too.

      Benjamin

    2. Re:The V2Pro's are very cool parts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      your homepage link is dead

    3. Re: The V2Pro's are very cool parts by pjrc · · Score: 1
      Xilinx promises that at the end of the year, in suitable quantities (>25,000), they will be $100/each.

      Yeah, yeah, yeah... the same meaningless price quotes from Xilinx as always. Historically it's been at 100,000 pieces in their widely published literature.

      At 25,000 chips, you'd probably go to the trouble to create a custom ASIC. Or at least you'd do a "hard wire" conversion of the FPGA design to an ASIC, if you used the FPGA to "get to market quickly".

      If you call up one of the actual distributors where you'd actually buy this part, say at qty 1000 to 5000, the store would be different. A lot different.

    4. Re:The V2Pro's are very cool parts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~biy
      you need to go to the publish page. any luck finding the best bread in the burgh?

  12. TCPA by raistphrk · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Maybe this new merging of the hardware and software worlds will settle some of the religious wars between hw and sw engineers? ...or maybe this will provide an architecture that's free of DRM? If TCPA ends up being as insidious as we think it will be, an alternative architecture will be in order for those who want to actually USE their PCs (as opposed to their $1500 multimedia toaster that they bought from Intel). This is good. This is very good.

    1. Re:TCPA by Anonym0us+Cow+Herd · · Score: 1

      This is what I was going to say.

      This gives us great freedom with hardware.

      One of the things that made software approaches take off was that software is easy to change. You don't need a dedicated circuit designed for each purpose. I remember as a youngster in the decade of polyester suits before popular microcomputers playing with 7400 series TTL gates to build various logic circuits. (e.g. a clock. a burglar alarm with keypad code entry.) As I looked at more sophisticated devices, the logic circuits needed to become way too comples. For instance, from PolyPaks you could order a single digit readout with a 5x7 array of LED's. You would have to multiplex drive this. I never ended up building any breadbord circuits, but I designed a few on paper. I would end up using a PROM after reading about them in Popular Electronics.

      It wasn't far from here to make the jump to "programming". I finally "got" the idea when I got hold of a friend's HP25 calculator. I never went back. No longer can remember which end of a soldering iron to pick up.

      The greatness of software was that you only had one universal hardware circuit. But you could control the outputs of, say, a parallel port.

      Now here we are in the 21st century. Fantastic hardware. But there is the potential for us to lose control of it to powerful, greedy interests.

      I would love to see the day when anyone could buy a cheap part and "burn" (or whatever) their own circuit or chip design. This would open the floodgates. Especially if the development systems were cheap, like a CD burner. Especially if your chip could fit into a standard PCI board, or dangling USB module.

      This would ward off the dangers of hardware control, just as open source wards off the dangers of software control, and garlic wards off vampires who want to suck you dry through neck lock in's and licensing 6.

      --
      The price of freedom is eternal litigation.
  13. Cheap shot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Look, should any biggish FPGA be able to run Linux, if it's arbitrarily programmable?

    OK, OK, so it's an ancillary FPGA. But why not get one on a PCI card and plug it into a PC, maybe save a few thousand?

    1. Re:Cheap shot by Petrus · · Score: 1

      I guess that they are trying to sell chips that have processor _and_ FPGA within square inch.

      I guess that the plug-in FPGA card would be connected in a different way, so whey you submit masks for mass productions the result would be likely buggy wnd won't work.

      Oh-no! Perhaps you did not think that this is for individual use?

  14. If this was cheaper by don.g · · Score: 1

    If it was cheaper, it would be really neat - there's a lot of things you could do with such a device. Problem is, it's US$5000 - for that price, you could buy *several* decent laptops, or even more decent PDAs :-(

    --
    Pretend that something especially witty is here. Thanks.
    1. Re:If this was cheaper by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If $5000 is too much expensive for you, odds are you don't really need it.

  15. Icarus by kirn_malinus · · Score: 1

    Speaking as a slave to Mentor Graphics who has seen Icarus before (you beat me to posting a link), I was wondering if you could offer any insight into how it well it works? Since you seem to have more experience with it than I do I was hoping you could expand on your declaration of Icarus as "competent".

    --
    All circuits busy.
    1. Re:Icarus by dlbowm · · Score: 1

      I have primarily used it only for syntax checking when I am not connected to the office LAN (vcs needs access to the license server) since it will not work with my verification environment. In recent builds it seems to do fine as far as the compile goes. My main problem is it does not fully support the TF PLI library and I have written a TF PLI app in C that embeds a PERL interpreter into the verilog models so I can use PERL to generate stimulus from inside. At some point I will migrate the code (there isn't much of it) over to VPI which is more completely implemented in Icarus. But without a testbench, I haven't been able to really stress Icarus in real world HDL development.

  16. really get a nice arch by johnjones · · Score: 3, Insightful

    god I hate PPC infact I nearly hate it as much as x86 but...

    now ARM a nice little design there is the same deal but with a ARM that altera do and see www
    and MIPS have been doing a dev board with a hard and soft core mix for a while

    well you never guess they ALL come with GNU tools and as they use standard arch that linux is already ported to

    really what you want to get into is a CPU on a FPGA and one that you dont have to pay a licence for this is what opencores.org is about and credit to them flextronics have started looking at it for a solution see

    news about the use of open hardware at

    the openRisc 100 project at

    See the FAQ at

    hope that helps

    regards

    John Jones

    1. Re:really get a nice arch by Petrus · · Score: 1

      The questiom, can I design the (Altera) FPGA internals _on_ Linux?

      It seems, that I can design on windows a system, that can run Linux and Linux kernel is included, BUT I have to have Windows/Solaris first to design compile the FPGA. Am I correct?

    2. Re:really get a nice arch by addaon · · Score: 1

      What in specific is it that you hate about PowerPC? I've found it a very pleasant instruction set to work with.

      --

      I've had this sig for three days.
    3. Re:really get a nice arch by brandido · · Score: 1

      Altera's Excalibur chip with the ARM processor is basically dead. When it came out, it had pages of errata, the processor was hacked onto the edge of the chip, from what I have heard they have excess inventory they can't sell, and they have not been talking about it for months. Pretty much dead in the water as far as I can tell.

      --
      First Falcon-1 to orbit, then Falcon-9. Then I can die a happy man.
  17. Re:The real question... by kirn_malinus · · Score: 0, Redundant

    If you convert the Ogg algorithms to verilog/vhdl it could...

    --
    All circuits busy.
  18. like a shiny little toy by ddama · · Score: 1
    We demoed the ML300 at Embedded Systems East last year. It has an LCD screen, CompactFlash, serial, parallel, USB, Firewire, Fibre Channel, Ethernet and who knows what other I/O, PLUS heaps of blinking blue LEDs, on this one little card. It was like a shiny toy designed to attract geeks.

    Fantastic to look at, even if you had no reason to be legitimately interested.

  19. Re:The real question... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    you can make it play .ogg, but you have to write the hardware descriptions yourself.

  20. Woooo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I want this puppy. But as an unemployed engineer with no "real-world" experience (but a year of work with verilog/vhdl) I can't afford this thing. If it comes with LCD screen, I can make my own gameboy ;)
    If only it cost around 100USD, I'd buy it.

    1. Re:Woooo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You want to make your own Gameboy? There are new Z80s out that are very, very cheap. They run at 50MHz too, so they're sick fast. You could probably use one of those plus a small, cheap FPGA board and plug it all together for some sweet action. Zilog sell a "Z8 Encore!" pack for $50 which is the chip, ANSI C compiler, sample code, the whole bit... plus RS232 connector so you can play with it on your own PC :-) I want.

  21. it's cheap too! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    only $7k, finally this stuff is affordable to the masses.

    Not.

    1. Re:it's cheap too! by Petrus · · Score: 1

      It's $5k. THe $5 is for WindRiver Compiler and Debugger. Believe or not, this IS cheap.

      Just http://www.xilinx.com/ise/vii_pro/kit.htm does not mentions Linux at all.But Monta Vista claim, that _do_ they work together.

      The question is, if Xilix schematic editor, VHDL compiler and xpr runs on Linux or it is only Linux for C development?

  22. I prefer hardwired hardware by g4dget · · Score: 1, Redundant
    I'm sorry, but I'm getting tired of FPGAs. Many early USB peripherals had FPGAs in them. The result? You need some weird driver CDs, and the hardware becomes useless when the special drivers don't install anymore.

    For hardware developers to imitate the mistakes of software development is a mistake. Hardware should conform to well-defined interfaces, it should be carefully designed, debugged, and tested, and then it should not require "upgrades" or "installation" later on, it should just work. If it hooks up to computers, it should only require generic drivers.

    1. Re:I prefer hardwired hardware by daaan · · Score: 1

      If it hooks up to computers, it should only require generic drivers.

      reminds me of the time that I used an HP LaserJet 4 driver to run a Deskjet 350 in DOS...guy said it would never work...granted, only printed black and white...but still

    2. Re:I prefer hardwired hardware by kinnell · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Using an FPGA does not in any way require "weird driver CDs". Nor do they prevent the hardware developers from implementing clean well defined, standard interfaces. In fact hardware implemented in an FPGA is no different from the users point of view from hardware implemented any other way, or from embedded software running on a micro-controller for that matter.

      If your USB peripherals didn't work properly, its because they were poorly designed. This has nothing to do with the choice of using an FPGA to implement the interface.

      To say that hardware engineers are immitating the mistakes of software engineers is ridiculous, (although obviously some are making the same mistakes). Is it therefore perfectly acceptable for software engineers to implement poorly designed interfacesand neglect testing and quality control? I don't think so, but perhaps we have become numb to this issue. Bad engineering is bad engineering. The choice of using FPGAs for an emerging standard is good engineering, because if the standard changes before maturing the hardware does not then become instantly obsolete. This is why FPGAs are popular in mobile telecoms base stations, and rightly so. Being able to upgrade hardware is a good thing. Releasing an immature design is bad, both in hardware and software.

      --
      If I seem short sighted, it is because I stand on the shoulders of midgets
    3. Re:I prefer hardwired hardware by g4dget · · Score: 0, Redundant
      In fact hardware implemented in an FPGA is no different from the users point of view from hardware implemented any other way, or from embedded software running on a micro-controller for that matter.

      Ummm--no. The "FP" in "FPGA" stands for "field-programmable", and it is field programmability that I'm arguing against. Field programmability usually means that I, the user, need to do something to the device.

      As a user, I don't want to have to "field upgrade" my stereo, television, camera, portable music player, car, or other device, I want them to work exactly as advertised; if they don't work as advertised, it should be the vendor's responsibility to fix them, at his cost. Making me download and install drivers, hot fixes, updates, or other stuff is an attempt to cut corners on testing and to off-load maintenance and repair costs onto me.

      And if that kind of corner cutting takes hold, soon no vendor will be able to compete anymore with high-quality products and decent service. It's the same thing we have seen in software: Microsoft has initiated a race to the bottom in terms of software quality, immature releases, and testing and driven pretty much all other vendors out of the market through corner cutting. Hardware is trying to repeat the same thing, by letting companies avoid proper testing and allowing them to fix immature products after the fact.

      The choice of using FPGAs for an emerging standard is good engineering, because if the standard changes before maturing the hardware does not then become instantly obsolete.

      That's the attitude I'm arguing against. There shouldn't be "emerging standards". Define standards correctly and so that they stand the test of time, then implement them correctly. Don't ship products before the standard is defined. 802.11g is an example of this kind of bad behavior.

      Of course, for some custom equipment, field upgradability makes sense. But that's already covered. My point is: expansion of field programmability into computers, peripherals, appliances, and comsumer electronics is undesirable as far as I'm concerned.

    4. Re:I prefer hardwired hardware by kinnell · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Ummm--no. The "FP" in "FPGA" stands for "field-programmable", and it is field programmability that I'm arguing against. Field programmability usually means that I, the user, need to do something to the device.

      "Field programmable" does not mean that you have to program it, any more than it means that you have to design it. The most common way of programming an FPGA is from a PROM chip on board. FPGAs are used as much in applications where ASICs are too expenensive as where field programmability is actually needed, if not more. If your digital camera manufacturer expects that you load an FPGA bitstream from your PC everytime you switch it on then, well, you should have read some reviews before you parted with your cash. Anyway, what's better, a device which is buggy and can't be upgraded, or a device which is buggy and can be upgraded? If you think traditional hardware designs are bug-proof, or can be exhaustively tested to ensure reliability, I'm sorry to dissapoint you. Hardware is generally as reliable as it is, because most firms are very good at hardware test and qualification, and there are well developed methodologies. This doesn't mean that bugs don't slip through. (Hint: don't buy the really cheap stuff)

      --
      If I seem short sighted, it is because I stand on the shoulders of midgets
    5. Re:I prefer hardwired hardware by Logger · · Score: 1

      I work in the Electronic Design Automation (EDA) industry. I've developed and supported both FPGAs and ASICs (think high performance non-FPGA) engineering efforts. FPGA products frequently can fall prey to a couple problems.

      1) Using a pre-standardized specification because some marketing guy wants to be the first product to hit the street. This is a marketing and not an engineering problem.

      2) For some reason there seams to be a lot of FPGA designers that don't think design verification with simulation is very important. Probably because FPGAs have historically been small simple devices, and now are becoming large and complex like ASICs. ASIC designers have developed sophisticated verification and simulation environments that really help reduce the number of bugs in large complex systems. The relatively simplistic and old fashioned verification methods of the FPGA designer tend to not thoroughly verify a design. In fact if you talk to these designers, they often say "Oh, all that simulation is too slow, and requires more work to develop all the test benches. I'll just download the FPGA program into the actual device, and run it on the real thing a thousand times faster." The faster part is true. Yet, this approach is usually far from thorough since a formal verification plan has not been created, and running on hardware lacks the visibility needed to do debug. Then bugs like you've seen make it into the product, and a patch has to be delivered to the customer later.

      So there's nothing wrong with the FPGA. It's just the pressure to go to market too early, or inexperience engineers brushing off the idea of thorough verification.

    6. Re:I prefer hardwired hardware by Anonym0us+Cow+Herd · · Score: 1

      Just because something can be done poorly doesn't mean it must be done poorly.


      wasn't something similar to this said at the conference in Kittomer?

      --
      The price of freedom is eternal litigation.
    7. Re:I prefer hardwired hardware by leeward · · Score: 1

      As a user, I don't want to have to "field upgrade" my stereo, television, camera, portable music player, car, or other device, I want them to work exactly as advertised; if they don't work as advertised, it should be the vendor's responsibility to fix them, at his cost.

      Ah, you mean like the way software vendors handle their products.

      I think there are two problems here. One is that hardware has become vastly more complex, just like software, so that it is virtually impossible to test for every possible bug. And the second is the rapid development and change of standards. Are you happy buying a new toy everytime something new (like a new, better movie format) comes out? Why not zap your old player with hardware support for the new format?

    8. Re:I prefer hardwired hardware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >Ummm--no. The "FP" in "FPGA" stands for
      >"field-programmable", and it is field
      >programmability that I'm arguing against.
      >Field programmability usually means that I,
      >the user, need to do something to the device.

      For every design that I've done FP might as well stand for factory programmable.

      Your argument has nothing to do with FPGAs per se.

    9. Re:I prefer hardwired hardware by g4dget · · Score: 1
      So there's nothing wrong with the FPGA.

      There is nothing "wrong" with any correctly designed piece of hardware. I mean, unless you step on it, an FPGA by itself isn't going to hurt you.

      What is wrong, IMO, is using FPGAs to build consumer products that are upgradable by the end user because that allows companies to release hardware with less testing and just have the users find and fix the bugs. Like Microsoft does with software.

    10. Re:I prefer hardwired hardware by g4dget · · Score: 1
      I think there are two problems here. One is that hardware has become vastly more complex, just like software, so that it is virtually impossible to test for every possible bug.

      I don't see the problem. Nothing is entirely bug free, but there is a traditional level of reliability we have had for hardware. I have never needed to upgrade my stereo before. If hardware becomes more complex then it requires more testing to achieve the same level of quality. What you seem to imply is that vendors make their hardware more complex, do the same amount of testing, and then let the users find the bugs. That's exactly what I am annoyed by. Hardware vendors should do testing commensurate with the complexity of the hardware they release.

      And the second is the rapid development and change of standards. Are you happy buying a new toy everytime something new (like a new, better movie format) comes out? Why not zap your old player with hardware support for the new format?

      Standards are usually not developed rapidly. MPEG4 took, what, two decades after MPEG2 to be released? What is being developed rapidly is a barrage of new, proprietary formats, formats that vendors release quickly in an effort to grab market share with minor advantages. That should be discouraged.

      Here is my rule of thumb: programmability is fine if I can program it to do what I want it to do. Then, I don't have to rely on the vendor to dictate to me how and when to upgrade. But when programmability only goes as far as the vendor sending me binary-only field upgrades, then programmability is merely a means for the vendor to avoid sufficient testing the hardware before sending it out.

    11. Re:I prefer hardwired hardware by Logger · · Score: 1

      Technologically you are sound. Market-wise it is not practical. Take HDTV.

      Problem: There is no defined standard yet (aside from broadcast). Studios will be slow to adopt HD production unless there is a large market of HD viewers, who won't upgrade unless it's cheap and has a lot of HD programming. Chicken/egg.

      Solution: slowly seed the market. Convert early adopters on both fronts.

      Problem: even they won't adopt if they think their new hardware will be obsolete soon.

      Solution: you need to standardize on the a spec, or allow them to upgrade.

      Problem: if the spec is marketed incorrectly or not very good, or there are competing standards, hardware developers don't want to create hardware for it.

      Solution: Somebody needs to force the standard. Enter Congress.

      Problem: Congress doesn't act because various producers and consumers want different things. The standard never happens because of this. Since the standard never comes, hardware makers never create HD devices. Even the early adopters don't get to adopt. Deadlock.

      Solution: Hardware makers create upgradeable devices able to handle any changing standards. We now don't have to wait for "An Act of Congress" to get HD. Early adopters on both the producer and consumer side will start playing with the technologies. Through the sometimes painful process of survival of the fittest, some kind of standard will emerge victorious. It won't be perfect, but the alternative is deadlock.

      There is an alternate version of this scenario. Congress does pass a standard. It is so bad nobody wants it, and is ignored.

      Ignored because:
      1) it's too vague or allows too many variations
      2) favors one lobbying group too much
      3) was never tested in the "real world" and won't really work
      4) despite having a deadline for compliance, because of 1-3 is repealed before anyone actually has to do anything about it.

    12. Re:I prefer hardwired hardware by Bassman59 · · Score: 1

      g4dget: " Ummm--no. The `FP' in `FPGA' stands for `field-programmable', and it is field programmability that I'm arguing against. Field programmability usually means that I, the user, need to do something to the device.

      In this case, you're wrong. "Field Programmable," in this case, means, "the opposite of factory mask programmed." The device is programmed by the board manufacturer prior to shipping.

      The FPGAs we're discussing here are the SRAM-based types. These require some sort of external storage that loads the configuration at power-on (or whenever the user requires reconfiguration). Typically, this configuration is stored in a serial EEPROM, but it can also be loaded from a one-time-programmable (OTP) serial ROM, or even from a microprocessor bus.

      Note that there are a bunch of FPGAs that are OTP. Actel and QuickLogic only make OTP FPGAs. Xilinx and Altera will sell you OTP versions of their SRAM devices.

      Then, of course, Lattice has their new xPGAs, which are FPGAs with built-in configuration EEPROM.

      Sure, it's possible to design a board that the end-user can configure. In fact, most FPGA- and CPLD-based systems are designed that way -- so the design, test and production engineers can load configuration code. However, how many end users have JTAG dongles for their computers? How many end users have EPROM programmers? The point, of course, is that the hardware vendors don't expect end users to update the products.

    13. Re:I prefer hardwired hardware by bforsse · · Score: 1

      "...running on hardware lacks the visibility needed to do debug..."

      There's a neat tool called Chipscope Pro that ships with the ML300 that acts as an internal logic analyzer. You can trigger on a real signal and get back a sample of signals occuring in the FPGA. Very usefull for debugging designs that you don't want to put the work in to simulate.

      Overall though, I'll have to agree that thoroughly simulating your design is the best way to go. The Swift model of the PPC is really usefull in that regard, you can have more confidence that your design will work with the real processor.

    14. Re:I prefer hardwired hardware by g4dget · · Score: 1
      Solution: Hardware makers create upgradeable devices able to handle any changing standards.

      Buying an HDTV that is upgradable via FPGA programming is utter folly: five years from now, when you finally get around to upgrading your hardware, the vendor won't have any software for doing so, or means by which you can load the software into your HDTV.

      The way HDTVs are upgradable is by putting the HDTV decoder into one box and have a standard analog or digital interface to the video part (plasma, projector, CRT). That's solid, sound engineering for change.

      So, upgradable hardware is good. Modular hardware is good. FPGA-upgradable hardware is (usually) bad.

  23. Do they have student discounts? by Colonel+Panic · · Score: 1

    ...like for maybe $100?

    This looks pretty cool, but no way I can afford one at $5K... You could do the slow bits of code in C targetting the PPC and the fast stuff in VHDL or Verilog...

    1. Re:Do they have student discounts? by fredistheking · · Score: 1

      Altera has a student program where you can get the UP1 board with a Altera Max and Altera Flex FPGA. The board and the book "Rapid Prototyping of Digital Design" by James O. Hamblin and Michael D. Furman. Info can be found at http://www.altera.com/education/univ/kits/unv-kits .html.
      The kit costs about $150(US).

    2. Re:Do they have student discounts? by bforsse · · Score: 1

      You can contact the Xilinx Univeristy Program and inquire about the ML300 board: xup@xilinx.com I'm not sure what kind of discount they can get for you but it's worth a shot. You can also check out the website: http://www.xilinx.com/univ/index.htm

  24. Linux? by Amsterdamn+Vallon · · Score: 1

    Very good, this will finally allow open source to get a grip on the hardware development market, which is good for us all!

  25. so in this case... by ferrocene · · Score: 1

    does FPGA still mean Flip chip Pin Grid Aray? That's what I thought at first.

    --
    Most folk'll never lose a toe, and then again some folk'll...
    1. Re:so in this case... by schimmi · · Score: 1

      It means:

      F ield
      P rogramable
      G ate
      A rray

  26. Cool stuff by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Anyone out there got any cool ideas of what you can design and build with one of these development kits? Just curious...

  27. Religious war by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    The problems of the war are pretty easy to solve.

    Assume that $religion means the presence of a $diety (belief systems without a $diety, like Taoism, will not be considered ${religion}s, which is to their credit).

    Either $diety is hardware (real, grounded in nature, possibly via a marked green cable) or is software (virtual, made up in human minds, subject to revision and short-lived cultural fad approaches like "extreme religion" and "christianity"). Since there are and have been umpteen different $dieties, none of which has lasted, while the hardware has remained relatively stable, $diety is software. This is also confirmed by the near-universal belief that $diety is infinite, which can only be true of software (since it is virtual). As a side note when you consider the state of software this explains a LOT.

    So since $diety is software and software requires hardware to run, hardware engineers are titans. They win and software engineers lose.
    But since $diety is software and can thus be made and freely and infinitely revised by software engineers, they're the ones who are titans. They win and hardware engineers lose.

    So I hope that's cleared things up. Now fight amongst yourselves.

    1. Re:Religious war by kinnell · · Score: 1

      Is a $diety a $deity who doesn't eat much?

      --
      If I seem short sighted, it is because I stand on the shoulders of midgets
    2. Re:Religious war by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't be silly - deities can eat all the fatted calf and matzas they want and they never gain an ounce. You know what they say: you can never be too omnipotent or too immaterial.

      A $diety is what you're left with after the pronouncement "$deity is dead".

    3. Re:Religious war by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's what I get for posting at one in the morning.

  28. Hardware/Software convergence - the real thing by kinnell · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The xilinx parts are for embedded systems, and have no real benefits for your average PC user (hence they can market them them for $$$).

    Look here for genuinely cool FPGA technology. They use transputer based technology to implement parallel algorithms in, well, parallel. The demos are very impressive - real time raytracing @50MHz anyone?

    --
    If I seem short sighted, it is because I stand on the shoulders of midgets
    1. Re:Hardware/Software convergence - the real thing by Memetic · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Celoxica's main product is a development environment that basically lets you write C code and drop it onto an FPGA. (Yes it runs on Linux.)

      Its a lot faster to develop this way than more traditional methods (HDL's) as its so easy to iterate, for example being able to drag code back and forth to optimise the flow between a processor on your board and an FPGA being used as a custom parallell coprocessor is pretty cool.

      As for the demos, that ray trace one is pretty cool, but I did like the space invaders demo - I think the game code was from a ROM dump - you even got an insert coin prompt!

    2. Re:Hardware/Software convergence - the real thing by Bassman59 · · Score: 1

      Memetic: "Its a lot faster to develop this way than more traditional methods (HDL's) as its so easy to iterate, for example being able to drag code back and forth to optimise the flow between a processor on your board and an FPGA being used as a custom parallell coprocessor is pretty cool."

      Cool, perhaps, but real hardware designers won't touch a C-based HDL with a ten-foot pole. Unless, of course, the product can support a huge FPGA device (costing huge $$$).

      C-based hardware designs are nowhere near as efficient as an HDL-based design flow and good floorplanning. You can get much higher clock rates, using much less FPGA real estate, if you avoid the C-based tools and stick to real HDLs.

      And it's "faster" only for the software guy that doesn't understand hardware design, and doesn't want to learn a real HDL.

      Raytracing at 50 MHz? Phooey. A real hardware designer can take proper advantage of the chip architecture and quadruple the clock rate.

    3. Re:Hardware/Software convergence - the real thing by Memetic · · Score: 1

      Have you had a chance to try these tools in comparison to a pure HDL approach?

      Saying "You can get much higher clock rates, using much less FPGA real estate, if you avoid the C-based tools and stick to real HDLs." is a pretty bold statement.

      Without a doubt there are cases where an expert HDL designer will be able (or even needed) to optimise code, perhaps get critical timings right or to force a design onto a particular target device etc. But such HDL experts are in short supply in even the best resourced teams, letting the software/firmware types in on the design to break the back of it with support for fine tweeks from a HDL guru can produce good results very fast. This is especailly the case where you are trying to get a balance between what you do on a micro and what you do in FPGA logic.

      From what I have seen, including the results of head to head coding by parallel development teams, the C based approach stacks up well. Ultimately it depends on your application and alogrithms - and of course on what your most imprtant design constrains are, speed, area used etc.

      As for not touching it with a 10 foot pole in my view that's a mistake, embrace it, even if just to do the grunt work, let then use it to tweek and experiment faster...then take the glory!

      I'm not saying that the C based tools are a panecea just that, used right, they can be a very powerful asset.

  29. System Requirements by njyoder · · Score: 1, Insightful

    System Requirements: Microsoft Windows NT 4.0 (SP4), Windows 2000, Sun Solaris 2.7/5.7* or 2.8/5.8, Solaris 2.7/5.7

    Bwahahaha, no development tools for linux, suckers! Seriously though there is a severe lack of decent open source EDA tools unfortunatly. There are a few that exist yes, but they are of very low quality or are very slow developing (some vaporware?). Yes, I know, now a bunch of you will go google now, find a bunch of open source EDA tools you've never used, and try to prove me wrong (I'm guesing the vast majority here don't even use EDA tools anyway).

    It would be nice if someone tried to organize the different open source EDA projects together as there seems to be disjointed, repeat work out there (and some seem to be going nowhere so they need someone to give them a good kick in the rear).

    <rant>Also a bunch of projects advertise that they are trying to create their EDA tool(s) for linux, I mean WTF is up with that? Seriously, I hate to rant but this really deserves it. What's with all the idiots creating linux specific open source projects when they do absolutely nothing that would need linux specifically. People doing that should be shot, if you gave the slightest bit about portability would at least target *nix.</rant>

    Anyway, this is harder than it seems, as it is more than just a technical effort (the technical aspect being difficult enough as it is). There needs to be good "managers" and PR type people to organize and advocate this project, so it's not just a bunch of random momos submitting code on occasion that may or may not work with the rest of the program.

    1. Re:System Requirements by girmann · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Hmm... I beg to differ.

      Pehaps you have heard of a VHDL simulator called Modelsim? They have a Linux version and they have found that through test after test Modelsim runs much faster on Linux than on any other platform. That's why they are targeting Linux.

      --
      Nietzsche is dead. --God
    2. Re:System Requirements by njyoder · · Score: 0

      Pehaps you have heard of a VHDL simulator called Modelsim?

      Yes, I've used ModelSim on HP-UX *gag*. What I was pointing out in my original post (aside from the talk about open source EDA tools) is that the ML300 development kit doesn't include any VHDL/FPGA tools for Linux. Looking at Xilinx's site again it appears even the non-Linux suite (ISE) is just an evalutation. It's a bit odd though that the included ISE suite doesn't include linux evaluation versions (maybe they just never created an eval for Linux?).

      Anyway, if you want to play with the FPGA, you have to fork over another $1500 for ISE which includes ModelSim XE II Starter Kit, then an additional $945 if you want ModelSim XE II full version.

    3. Re:System Requirements by girmann · · Score: 1

      Agreed... I was talking about Modelsim for Linux on x86. Big difference.

      As I said in a previous post, I'll be getting a demo of one of these in the next couple of weeks. I can post the real costs of all the software (linux or otherwise) then.

      --
      Nietzsche is dead. --God
  30. What can you do with it rather than what it is by grey1 · · Score: 1

    The idea is you have a problem (algorithm) that you implement on an FPGA; you run it a large number of times; you thereby get a speed improvement over running the problem on a general purpose chip.

    At least that's the idea. What I've not seen are good examples of benchmarks run on FPGA vs. common general purpose chips (P-III, P-IV, etc).

    One additional interesting idea is that you can combine FPGAs with an evolutionary computing-style optimiser to get the best efficiency (speed).

    --
    "we demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"
  31. programmable hardware probably wouldn't be open by Kynde · · Score: 0, Redundant

    If your USB peripherals didn't work properly, its because they were poorly designed. This has nothing to do with the choice of using an FPGA to implement the interface.

    With programmable hardware the hardware engineers won't have the same scrutiny in testing as they would with hardwired hardware. Period.

    So what, one might say? Programmable hardware can be upgraded afterwards. So isn't that a good thing? Depends on who you ask I suppose.

    My stand on this would be NO, because I couldn't do jack shit for it incase something doesn't work. From a software developers point of view it's essential that you can trust your platform (os and compiler) and most importantly if you think there's bugs there, you can look it up from the source and try finding it. I doubt that I'd have the possibility of doing so with programmable hardware.

    No, clean CPU specs for me please. Let it be shite like the 386 we're still mostly struggling with, but atleast I have good specs for that and ALL of the software on top of it is GPL'd. Thank you.

    Besides if you think of BIOSes and HW drivers in general. They're so shite that linux and many other OSes won't even use them. Thank god one can bypass them in most of the cases. People have been asking bios sources, but in vain. My guess is that what we have with bioses now is what we'll be facing with future programmable hardware. Crap and proprietary. I wonder why M$ hasn't gotten into that yet...

    --
    1 Earth is warming, 2 It's us, 3 it's royally bad, 4 we need to take action NOW
    1. Re:programmable hardware probably wouldn't be open by kinnell · · Score: 1

      My stand on this would be NO, because I couldn't do jack shit for it incase something doesn't work. From a software developers point of view it's essential that you can trust your platform (os and compiler) and most importantly if you think there's bugs there, you can look it up from the source and try finding it. I doubt that I'd have the possibility of doing so with programmable hardware.

      Actually, the reverse is true. FPGAs are primarily designed inhouse. I've never heard of anyone shipping a preprogrammed FPGA as a stand alone product, there's no point - FPGA designs are invariably shipped as embeddable cores, either in HDL or EDIF netlists, both of which are effectively non-free open source (ARM use this model quite successfully). The same is not true for say, an i386. As for testing, most FPGAs have built in JTAG support, and are certainly no more difficult to test than ASICs.

      --
      If I seem short sighted, it is because I stand on the shoulders of midgets
    2. Re:programmable hardware probably wouldn't be open by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >With programmable hardware the hardware engineers
      >won't have the same scrutiny in testing as they
      >would with hardwired hardware. Period.

      Anyone who's done a large FPGA design knows that you need to treat it like an ASIC. Otherwise you're in for a world of hurt.

      Also QA guys don't know whether a device has an ASIC or FPGA in it, so I don't see why they would test an FPGA based device less thoroughly.

      Any hardware engineer that allows such nonsense is an idiot.

  32. FPGA tools and Linux (was: Re:GNU tools?) by hka · · Score: 1

    There are tools for complete FPGA design flow that run under Linux. Check out http://www.synplicity.com for example.

    -- Just another FPGA/ASIC designer

    1. Re:FPGA tools and Linux (was: Re:GNU tools?) by imadork · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Synplicity doesn't do fitting and layout, just synthesis. I am using Altera FPGA's in my current project, and am currently using Synplicity and Quartus (Altera's design software) under Linux with absolutely no problems. It beats the pants off of our Solaris compute servers, which while they're older, cost 5x as much for half the performance. This is getting IT people turned on about Linux, and I'm hoping my next desktop will be Linux-based instead of NT (but I'm not holding my breath).

      As far as I know, Xilinx doesn't have a direct Linux port of their software, but say that their Windows Binaries will run under WINE. I don't know, as I haven't used Xilinx stuff in some time.

    2. Re:FPGA tools and Linux (was: Re:GNU tools?) by tenelson · · Score: 1

      That is correct, Xilinx does not have a Linux port of their software at this time. Here's hoping though. ModelSim SE runs under Linux, as does Synplify. The Xilinx tools definitely run fine under WINE, but I think most engineers would be more comfortable with native Linux binaries.
      A tutorial on how to do this is here: http://www.polybus.com/xilinx_on_linux.html

      I wonder if any of the tool vendors are pursuing Mac OS X versions of their software? My guess would be no, but it would be nice to have more choice in the matter of host OS for these tools. T

    3. Re:FPGA tools and Linux (was: Re:GNU tools?) by KillboyPHD · · Score: 1

      As far as I know, Xilinx doesn't have a direct Linux port of their software, but say that their Windows Binaries will run under WINE. I don't know, as I haven't used Xilinx stuff in some time.

      Not true, most(all?) of our command line tools run on Linux, and most of our GUI tools do as well (through WindU Win32 libraries).

      Yeah, you get a Win32 look-n-feel on linux, but it's a lot easier on us developers that having a native port.

      --
      Bah weep granah, weep ninny bong!
    4. Re:FPGA tools and Linux (was: Re:GNU tools?) by imadork · · Score: 1
      Well, I stand corrected then. Our people in charge of EDA tools on Linux said that the Xilinx software will only run under WINE, but they may be getting WINE and WindU confused.

      Applications run through WindU look ugly, but all EDA tools look ugly, so I don't care. Quartus in particular has such a horrid interface that I'm looking forward to my next Xilinx-based project...

    5. Re:FPGA tools and Linux (was: Re:GNU tools?) by KillboyPHD · · Score: 1

      Our people in charge of EDA tools on Linux said that the Xilinx software will only run under WINE, but they may be getting WINE and WindU confused.

      I checked when I got in to work today. You're EDA guys were right, the latest release of our tools will run only under WINE. However, the next release due out this summer do use WindU, and the command line tools are natively ported.

      Sorry about the misinformation. I've been debugging linux/solaris/sol64 WindU issues in my app for so long, I'd forgotten that we hadn't released it yet. :)

      --
      Bah weep granah, weep ninny bong!
    6. Re:FPGA tools and Linux (was: Re:GNU tools?) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I thought I heard that designman 5 would run on Linux.

  33. Comment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I would say that most of your examples are a result of poor UI. It strikes me as odd then, that you say that no software engineer must have been involved with those tools...

    Since when did all software engineer's worry about proper UI design? From my personal, albeit anecdotal, experience SE's are generally very negligent when it comes to UI design. (I work as a software tester, and have worked with a variety of products: shrink wrapped software, web based guis, etc.) This is why there should usually be somebody with expertise in useability.

  34. I'm me??!!?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    James Woods: . . .Let's do it again. C'mon, c'mon. You're you and I'm me. Let's go.

    Jimbo Jones: [astonished] I'm me?

  35. Customers require "softwired" hardware by cpt.haddock · · Score: 1

    ...it should not require "upgrades" or "installation" later on, it should just work.

    I agree that hardware should not require upgrades later on. But for our powerFFT card, many customers require special data conversion or memory addressing schemes. If we have to redesign the "hardwired" hardware, the cost would skyrocket!. But with VHDL, we design and test the new configuration and put it in an EEPROM before shipping. Then for the customer our device "just works".

  36. Been there, done that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    # uname -a
    Linux (none) 2.4.19-rmk6 #139 Tue Feb 11 10:47:33 CET 2003 armv4l unknown

    # cat /proc/cpuinfo
    Processor : Arm922Tid(wb) rev 0 (v4l)
    BogoMIPS : 99.94
    Features : swp half thumb

    Hardware : Altera Epxa10db
    Revision : 0000
    Serial : 0000000000000000

    This is an Altera board containing an FPGA with embedded ARM922T cpu.

    You can program the FPGA by simply doing cat system.sbi >/dev/pld0.

  37. There are other boards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is a PowerPC 823 based board running linux and other os. The FPGA is a lot smaller.

    http://brightstareng.com/ine1.htm

  38. One seriously amazing part by freeio · · Score: 3, Informative

    The ability to run one or more concurrent instances of Linux (or whatever, quite frankly) internally to one of the Xilinx Virtex II parts is seriously amazing. Ignore the board it comes on for development for now - that is just cruft. The Virtex II is probably the most powerful instantly reconfigurable DSP engine in existence (think audio, video manipulation at real time speeds). They have internal hardware to perform from 16 to 128 simultaneous 16x16 multiply/accumulate operations simultaneously, _in_one_clock_cycle_. And if you don't like what it is doing, you can change it, time and time again, forever. Raw Power. Complete Reconfigurability. Sweet!

    Combine this kind of power with multiple PPC processors on the same die, and the possibilities are incredible. The big difficulty is that the operation of the hardware and software can be so tightly tied together that it is difficult to program and debug. Everything is controlled by software (both the software and the VHDL or Verilog based FPGA code) and so the possibilities are limitless.

    Kudos to Jim Ready and the folks at Monta Vista for supporting this kind of device with development tools for Linux.

    --
    Soli Deo Gloria
    1. Re:One seriously amazing part by bforsse · · Score: 1

      This kit comes with some really neat debugging features that hopefully help to ease the pain of debugging such a huge system. You can use ChipScope Pro to trigger on a real signal in the FPGA (like an interrupt) and send back sample data as waveforms. Basically a built in logic analyzer.

      Also, the whole system can be simulated using a Smartmodel of the PPC, so you can see all the signals as simulation waveforms when running your software. And of course there's GDB w/ GUI for software.

  39. Nice, but... by eXtro · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'd much prefer a native port of their FPGA development tools. They list compatibility with Redhat 7.2 but if you read the fine print that means that you use WINE to run them. Better yet, release specifications on programming your CLBs and routing. You would then see some real innovation in tools come out. FPGA's should be the electronics hobbiests component of choice much like PROMs and 7400 series TTL logic was a couple of decades ago. Instead you're forced into using their tools, which the last time I used (admittedly ~7 years ago) were about as much fun as extracting your molars with a spoon.

  40. LEON by girmann · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Nobody here has mentioned the LOEN progect, which is based on the SPARC V8. This is an open processor core that you can put into any FPGA. Speeds aren't as great as the PowerPC in this desing, but hey, it works!

    --
    Nietzsche is dead. --God
  41. VHDL and the US gov by vnsnes · · Score: 1
    Agreed.

    It's a wonder, however, that VHDL is the preferred HDL of the US government and its contractors. It was patterned after Ada--another US government fave.

    This ought to fit into a conspiracy theory or two.

  42. Embedded processors on FPGA's by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Guys, this is all fairly old hat, and from what I know Xilinx are having problems with the silicon process - so these will be engineering samples for some time to come.

    Altera, on the other hand, have been producing the Excalibur ARM with 922T for a couple of years now... so a little long in the tooth itself (update of this technology soon I would assume).. but check out www.altera.com for info on their NIOS embedded processor - a nifty reconfigurable core (would you lke 16/32 bits sir? DMA? hardware or software multiply? custom instruction on ALU?) with peripherals (all user definable/parameterizable). The best bit? Runs on any of their SRAM based FPGA's with preformance up to around 120MHz.. depending on FGPA. All for $995 with GNU devtools... and no license to pay on use of the core...

  43. Correct Link by fredistheking · · Score: 2, Interesting
  44. Excellent! by CMiYC · · Score: 1

    Thanks! I was looking for a cheap FPGA board exactly like these!

  45. What's the world coming to.... by carlos_benj · · Score: 1

    FPGA? What sort of politically correct tripe is that?! Let's return to the kinder, gentler days when it was OK to call a woman a 'lady' and restore the LPGA before the next tour. I mean, we all know that a 'L'ady refers to a 'F'emale, right????? I mean....

    What? Oh. Never mind.

    --

    --

    As a matter of fact, I am a lawyer. But I play an actor on TV.

  46. How do you want to convert from programming logic? by Raistlin99 · · Score: 1

    Do you want to do schematic capture (where you draw the circuit in a CAD enviroment) or do you want to be able to use an HDL (hardware description language)? If you want to go the schematic capture you could always build them out of ICs on a breadboard for next to nothing. But if you want to go the HDL way, you need the FPGA and a decent HDL compiler.

    --
    I/O, I/O, its off to disk I go, with a read and a write, and a bit and a byte, I/O, I/O, I/O, I/O
  47. Linux by 56ksucks · · Score: 1, Interesting

    This just in, My car runs linux, my phone runs linux, my shoes run linux, my dishwasher runs linux, my cat runs linux, when I fart, my fart runs linux, and CowboyNeal runs linux! My point? Why is it news worthy every time something new with a microprocessor runs linux?

    --

    ---- "Excuse me. Where's the children's gun section?"

  48. stuff by Mungkie · · Score: 0

    humm....... stuff is really all about efficiency, which is about cost. This system costs too much all development can now be done in software. form thermal tests to logic to board design to power consumption analysis. If your working on a project that will produce more that 10k units software synthesis and an ASIC will be cheaper. And development in synthesis software is always the best and cheapest route before looking at the implementation on silicon. I believe good development and innovation is all about experimentation which is a scientific approach. Engineering is about following the rules. That's why computer scientists are better that software engineers.

  49. Altera already has Linux on programmable logic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just the facts:
    Excalibur = Altera programmable logic + hard ARM processor.
    NIOS = Altera soft core CPU for Altera programmable logic

    The Excalibur + Montavista solution:
    http://www.altera.com/corporate/news_ro om/releases /products/nr-mvista.html

    The NIOS + uCLinux solution:
    http://www.altera.com/products/devkits/ altera/kit- dev_linux.html

    And, yes, Altera's Quartus II design software runs on Red Hat Linux 7.x.

  50. This announcement shouldn't have been posted by hairychest · · Score: 1

    I think the linux angle is they are just giving gcc ( god love them Xilinx were always kind in this respect) for their powerpc core whooppeedooo,

    All the real VHDL FPGA development tools seem to run under windows.

    If they gave away the details of the innards of their FPGAs or even better made their stuff run with the few free VHDL tools,
    what few are available I'd be impressed.

    Vendors always charge an arm & a leg for them ( typically a few thousand euro for stuff that will do larger FPGA's
    about 100 euro for student editions for small FPGA's ), asic development software costs typically 50k plus.

    Virtex cores aren't cheap either, we had them on our VPN acceleration boards they were over 3000 euro a pop,
    they might be down to 1500 euro now.

  51. Re:How do you want to convert from programming log by battjt · · Score: 1

    All software. I hurt my self with hardware.

    I have recently written an SH7055 CPU emulator and I want to try to build my own CPU. I realize that a CPU on an FPGA will be slow, but I'll learn why the SH2 was designed the way it was, instead of the way I think it should have been.

    I would also like to play with multiple simple dedicated use cores on a chip.

    Joe

    --
    Joe Batt Solid Design
  52. Re:One seriously amazing part (clarification) by mamba-mamba · · Score: 1
    The ability to run one or more concurrent instances of Linux (or whatever, quite frankly) internally to one of the Xilinx Virtex II parts is seriously amazing.

    There is a Virtex II and a Virtex II Pro, which are not the same.

    The article is about a demo board with the PRO version on it. The plain Virtex II doesn't have a PPC processor built-in to it.

    Just wanted to clear that up.

    MM
    --

    --
    By including this sig, the copyright holders of this work or collection unreservedly place it in the public domain.
  53. Well, It runs QUAKE... by Eddy_D · · Score: 1

    Saw this piece of hardware running at a Xilinx Seminar (X-Tech). Damn thing was running Quake! I'm guessing it was just the demo version. Looked pretty cool. Quake version?, I dunno, maybe 3 (sorry I'm not a big quake fan). It's too bad that it's so expensive (Almost as bad as Motorola CPU demo boards).

    --
    - I stole your sig.
  54. Re:One seriously amazing part (clarification) by freeio · · Score: 1

    You are correct, of course.

    But it does beg the question: Were all versions before the "Pro" just amateur?

    --
    Soli Deo Gloria
  55. Board details by brandido · · Score: 2, Informative
    Some information on the boards:

    The CPU board, that has all of the main components on it, is an 16 layer board. It comes with 8 - 3.125 gigabit capable transceivers (used as 4 gigabit fiber, two HSSDC2/Infiniband and two Serial ATA), 128 MBytes of DDR, 2 PS/2, 2 Serial Ports, Parallel Port, FireWire, two PCCard/PCMCIA slots, Compact Flash interface (for configuration and file system) PMC slot, BDM and Trace ports, JTAG port, AC97 audio codec and a kitchen sink.

    The Power-I/O board, that has the TFT, most of the I/O and the majority of power regulation, is an 8 layer board, and has a 640x480 TFT, 14 I/O buttons, a multitude of LEDs and a small prototyping area underneath the TFT.

    Included with the kit is a 1GB microdrive, 2 fiber cables, 2 serial cables, an HSSDC2 cable, a serial ATA cable, two flavors of firewire, a Parallel Cable 4 programming cable, Xilinx ISE software, Chipscope ILA Pro, and on and on.

    In addition, I would like to say that this was an exciting project to work on - between the gigabit transceivers, the DDR and the high density of components on the board, this was the hardest board I've designed (I did the majority of the schematics and parts of the layout).

    --
    First Falcon-1 to orbit, then Falcon-9. Then I can die a happy man.
    1. Re:Board details by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even includes the kitchen sink, but no PCI? :)

    2. Re:Board details by brandido · · Score: 1

      It doesn't have a PCI connector, but it does have a PMC connector. The PMC connector is a PCI Mezzanine Connector often used in rack-mount systems. There are adapter cards that will allow for a PCI card to plug into the PMC slot. The adapter is a pin to pin mapping - no ICs.

      --
      First Falcon-1 to orbit, then Falcon-9. Then I can die a happy man.
  56. $4695 is really expensive for an FPGA by heroine · · Score: 1

    First, the Altera Flex is only $3000 or something and you could probably fabricate your own FPGA development board for $100. Slashdot shopping network won't tell you that nugget of information.

    Doing stuff in hardware is neat because it runs real fast, you're interacting with the real world instead of living in a black box, and you can charge money for it. Other than that, it's too expensive to use in most commercial situations and you need to go back to a general purpose computer. Let's put it this way. The ML300 is $4695 in materials. A standalone FPGA with supporting electronics and PCB fabrication is $100 in materials. Pure software on a general purpose computer is $0 in materials.

    1. Re:$4695 is really expensive for an FPGA by Bassman59 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      heroine: "Doing stuff in hardware is neat because it runs real fast, you're interacting with the real world instead of living in a black box, and you can charge money for it. Other than that, it's too expensive to use in most commercial situations and you need to go back to a general purpose computer. Let's put it this way. The ML300 is $4695 in materials. A standalone FPGA with supporting electronics and PCB fabrication is $100 in materials. Pure software on a general purpose computer is $0 in materials."

      The board is expensive because tech support for something like this is expensive. By charging a non-trivial amount of money, the vendor is able to weed out the non-serious players.

    2. Re:$4695 is really expensive for an FPGA by bforsse · · Score: 2, Informative

      The bulk of the cost of the ML300 is not in the FPGA. The peripherals on the board and the accessories in the kit constitute a lot of the price.

      If you're interested in a "standalone" development board those are also available.

  57. How much do production systems cost? by billstewart · · Score: 1

    Many hardware development environments have a somewhat pricy development box with lots of software tools, debugging ports, every interface the system could support, etc. which you can use to prototype and develop your real application, which is some embedded thing that might cost $5 or $50 or $5000 depending on what it it? So how much does one of these things cost for a typical deployed environment, e.g. a PCI board or a one of a bunch of chips on a graphics board? Does it go on a $500 board, or is $5000 realistic? (Makes a lot of difference if you want to build a Beowulf cluster of them....)

    --

    Bill Stewart
    New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
    1. Re:How much do production systems cost? by modecx · · Score: 1

      I have no idea typically what one of these boards (and specialized development environments) might go for. I know that Xilinx is particullarly pricy, and FPGA stuff in general is pretty steep, though. That said, I'm more of a software guy who's always been a interested in the hardware side. I'd love to learn more about FPGA programming, embedded controllers, etc. but I can't justify the cost of a board like that.

      The real reason these things (as I see it) are so expensive is the short runs they do: it costs a pretty good chunk to develop and fab a board like that. If you look at the components on the board, there's nothing really remarkable. It has a PCI bridge, a few 1000BT ports, a couple PCMCIA slots, an IDE channel, some BIOS stuff, an IBM MicroDrive, a PPC CPU and a Xilinx FPGA. There's no way that it's worth $5K in hardware pieces, IMO. On the other hand, it does seem to come with some nice debugging tools, and everything else you would need. It's probably worth it to someone who needs these things for their business.

      Of course, I could be wrong; I just think it's ungodly expensive, because they need to rocoup the cost of putting it all together.

      There just isn't enough demand to warrant making a ton of them (and thusly lowering the price), I guess.

      If I could get a prototype board for around $500 that didn't have all the fancy bells and whistles, but was still functional as a development platform, I'd probably jump on it.

      --
      Constitutional rights may be respected, repealed, or modified; but they must never be ignored.
    2. Re:How much do production systems cost? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      First off, I work for Xilinx...
      If you search online, you will be able to find these development environments + boards at very affordable prices from semiconductor distributors, like Insight/Memec, Avnet and many smaller firms.

      For example, you can get this feature rich development board http://www.insight-electronics.com/microblaze/ with all the necessary tools for just $800. You are talking abt an embedded system with processor, DDR, Flash, UART RS-232, 10/100 Ethernet, USB, I 2 C, SPI, LCD, PS/2 and all tools to design FPGA hardware and compile s/w....
      You might find better deals online... search for Altera Nios as well...

  58. Just a little expensive!!! by jhayworth · · Score: 1
    Ordering Code: EPXA-DEVKIT-XA10D
    Price: $7,995

    Damn... I like the $100 figure better.

    --

    Linux is only free if you consider your time worthless

  59. you are making my point for me by g4dget · · Score: 1
    The most common way of programming an FPGA is from a PROM chip on board. FPGAs are used as much in applications where ASICs

    Obviously, I have no problems with FPGAs whose programs are loaded from ROM. One would think you would be able to figure that out from what I wrote since I explained very explicitly what I don't like about field upgradability.

    If your digital camera manufacturer expects that you load an FPGA bitstream from your PC everytime you switch it on then, well, you should have read some reviews before you parted with your cash.

    A lot of hardware used to do this and still does this. Reviewers don't generally notice it because they just review stuff on one particular version of Windows. When the next version of Windows comes out and the vendor doesn't release a new driver, such hardware usually becomes a useless chunk of metal and plastic.

    As for you digital camera example, come on, that's a deliberately stupid example. You can figure out for yourself while even the worst company is not going to release a digital camera that requires downloads from a PC every time it is switched on. Firmware upgrades for digital cameras are still a huge problem, waste of time, and dangerous practice (if you interrupt it, the camera may break and won't get fixed under warranty). For example, I have a Nikon camera that was released with serious bugs; but the ugprade program doesn't run under Windows XP (it starts the download but never finishes the firmware download), and Nikon won't fix the camera for me. Ditto with a Palm firmware upgrade. Reviewers don't get to see such hassles.

    Hardware is generally as reliable as it is, because most firms are very good at hardware test and qualification,

    Yes, and if hardware firms can just release bug fixes like Microsoft does, that will get worse because they will invest less effort in "test and qualification". That is my point. This is what has happened in software over the last decade or two, and it looks like it is going to happen in hardware now that hardware is "field upgradable" and "field programmable".

  60. About the so-called hw-sw wars by Rolman · · Score: 1

    Personally, I think it's quite nice to see more FPGA hardware for the masses. For me it opens a lot of possibilities in R&D of new approaches to algorithm optimization and discovery of new methods of processing existing data.

    But more to the point of the hw/sw arguments, I do think this type of products could help everybody to see such things are really things of the past now and we need to move on.

    Some guy at Tokyo University said: "Software without Hardware is nothing, but Hardware without Software is something". I don't think this is necessarily true anymore. I feel pain when I buy a piece of hardware that I cannot use on Linux because the manufacturers are too afraid to open the API, preventing OSS/Free Software people to write software support for it.

    Obvious examples are 3D Video Chips and the dreaded Software Modems. If I'm buying a laptop, I can't have full control on the combination of hardware components, and there are very few laptops that will have fully supported Linux drivers for every single chipset.

    I am always forced to sacrifice some functions, because even those vendors with fully supported linux laptops won't have models with the chips that are critical to my specific line of work. So I end up buying a laptop that can't satisfy my needs to the fullest.

    Of what use is a piece of hardware if I can't use because I don't have the other "half" of its functions, which are contained inside a binary file? Before trying to bring hw/sw rants to the table, we should ask ourselves why we ended with such a stupid interdependence to one another. Heck, even Transmeta has a hw/sw hybrid CPU now. Ever wondered what would happened if Linus Torvalds were not on the staff and Linux support wasn't on their TODO list? I bet you would have a different opinion on Transmeta.

    Really, FPGA could bring Software Development to another level, where we could have non-OS dependent (or maybe even non-arch dependent) firmware, and then we can focus on writing nice APIs instead of device drivers. After all, device support should be a task best suited for the manufacturer, not the systems programmer.

    --
    - Otaku no naka no otaku, otaking da!!!
    1. Re:About the so-called hw-sw wars by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of cource, we'd still depend on the FPGA manufacturers. The synthesiser tools for the logic are fairly propetary. I don't know if there is even a Linux version of them. So you'd still have to have NT/2K around to synthesize your logic.

  61. Linux running on a processor running on an FPGA. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A couple of years ago I (while working for AMIRIX) ported Linux to a Lexra processor core that was running in an FPGA (See press release). Not a hard processor like on the V2Pro, a processor running entirely from the FPGA.

    It's kindof neat to have a processor emailed to you :-)

    I'd also like to add that Xilinx isn't the only one with a V2Pro based development board. AMIRIX has its own development board, although I don't know if there is a datasheet on our website yet. It'll be running PPCBoot and Linux.

  62. Heck, Karma's cheap. Let's get flamed. by Zordak · · Score: 1
    If we're stuck with these guys insisting that they're engineers, and the term has gotten common usage, then we obviously need a heirarchy.

    Wannabe Engineer: Application "Engineers" and Network "Engineers." Requirement: You're the guy down the street that "knows stuff about computers." A degree in IS, a diploma from ITT Tech and Certifications are all optional.

    I'm not an Engineer, But I Play One At Work: Software "Engineers." Requirement: A CS degree. You think you're cool because you hack XML. You think you know stuff about computers, but you couldn't so much as recognize a K-Map if it slapped you in the face. You've heard of "assembly" programming, but you've never actually seen it.

    Real Engineer (junior grade): Electrical/Computer Engineers. Requirement: A B.S. in Electrical Engineering. You actually know something. You eat Verilog for breakfast and assembly for lunch. You could probably design a power supply for your computer from scratch, but it wouldn't have good voltage regulation.

    Real Engineer: Requirement: PE. You think you are a demigod, and all the Engineer(j.g.)'s simultaneously despise you and want to be you. You dream in SPICE and FORTRAN and scorn those who rely on silly schematic capture tools, since you write all of your netlists in vi.

    --

    Today's Sesame Street was brought to you by the number e.
  63. FPGA info by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The specs of the Virtex-II Pro FPGA on this board
    are in this Linux Journal article by Peter Ryser and Michael Baxter.

    The Virtex-II Pro FPGA family offers up to four hard-core PowerPC 405 processors, 16 Rocket I/O 3.125Gbps serial transceivers, 3.8Mb of block RAM (BRAM) and four million system gates. ...

    Because FPGAs can be reconfigured dynamically you can even switch the number and type of devices while the system is running.

  64. Processors in FPGA by przemekklosowski · · Score: 1

    Well, Altera had the Excalibur system out for several years: it's their large FPGA with VHDL synthesis tools, including several parametrized CPU cores: MIPS and ARM (requiring license) and their own NIOS CPU. The cores can be customized with different peripherals, and, in the case of NIOS, can be even modified to implement a 6-bit or a 32-bit CPU. The CPUs use up a fraction of tens of thousands of gates---the rest is available for custom digital logic designed using standard FPGA techniques.

    There is a companion Linux implementation, running on the CPU. The basic Excalibur kit (software and eval board) is around $2k, and the Linux for NIOS kit costs another 2k, IIRC.

    Furthermore, Altera and XILINX were planning (or maybe already have) FPGAS with hardwired CPU (ARM or MIPS) sitting in the corner. This tends to leave more gates for the programmable part, and ive better speed.

    In other words, nothing new under the sun here.

  65. Re:Heck, Karma's cheap. Let's get flamed. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My experience with PEs are that they are the most UnProfessional "Engineers." Having taken an exam that says you are a "Professional Engineer" wont make you one, unless of couse you work for the government.

    Anybody who goes through certification is an incompetant engineer that is trying to cover up the fact by showing certificates.

  66. Re:Heck, Karma's cheap. Let's get flamed. by Zordak · · Score: 1

    You forget that a PE also requires 5 years of post-graduate work experience under another PE. And the exam is not trivial. Professionalism is subjective (notice, I said you think you're a demigod -- the junior Egnineer's envy you because you get paid a lot). However, you don't get to be a PE without having a good idea of what you're doing.

    --

    Today's Sesame Street was brought to you by the number e.