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The Future of Hard Drives: Ballistic Magnetoresist

Hirsto writes "Found this interesting story about breakthrough research on next generation drives. Here is a link to the NSF press release on this technology which supposedly enables storage densities of greater than 1 terabit per square inch. Devices might be on the market in 7 years, give or take."

167 comments

  1. Confusing units by tdvaughan · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Did anyone else find the quoted statistics confusing?
    Each of the filaments can read infinitesimal magnetic fields and at room temperature can detect a 100,000 percent change in voltage. Shouldn't that be a 1/100,000 percent change?

    1. Re:Confusing units by cosmosis · · Score: 1

      They are claiming we will have capacities of 1 Terabyte per square inch in 7 years. This sounds very conservative. Please correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding is storage capacity more than doubling each year, and are we not at 100Gbits per square inch now? And if this is correct then we should habe Terabit per square inch capacities in half the time as this company expects to deliver it.

    2. Re:Confusing units by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The idea is that with BMR, a very small change in magnetic field results in a very large change in resistance. For a constant current device that leads to a very large change in voltage as well. (Note: V=IR.) This is how you want a sensor to work. Small change in x gives you a large change in y.

    3. Re:Confusing units by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 1

      Please correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding is storage capacity more than doubling each year, and are we not at 100Gbits per square inch now?

      All true, but considering that the margins are so thin, I expect that R&D will be scaled back quite a bit, so that companies can actually make money. Either that, or maybe we'll see more specializations, with a couple places doing most of the research and then licensing the tech to all comers.

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
    4. Re:Confusing units by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I did not read the linked news artical, for obvious reasons, but rather the linked press release (which probably is not much better). The garbaling probably came from the fact that the full scale change for the resistance of the "spintronic" ( I hate that term) sensor is 3000%. BTW, this stuff is not really new. The theory has been around since at least the early 90s, when I has involved in the hard drive industry. What is new is that someone figured out how to actualy make a sensor small enough to be affected by electron spin. Definately cool stuff.

  2. 'Might' Be? by MaestroSartori · · Score: 3, Funny

    Yes, they might be on the market in seven years. So might cold fusion and room-temperature superconductors.

    And cloaking devices.

    And an honest politician...

    1. Re:'Might' Be? by kryliss · · Score: 2, Funny

      I think you might be pushing it with the honest politician. Cold fusion, room temperature superconductors and cloaking devices I can believe. Hell I'd believe that aliens have landed before I believe that there is an honest politician.

      --
      --- If the bible proves the existence of God, then Superman comics prove the existence of Superman.
    2. Re:'Might' Be? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      You can get honest politicians now, but no one votes for them because they don't tell the public what they want to hear.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    3. Re:'Might' Be? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You mean they don't tell the news media what *they* want to hear.

  3. In other news by djupedal · · Score: 3, Funny

    Terabiit BM announced their latest offering in the 'Eye of the Needle' premium hard drive series, the LOC Plus, which uses the planetary orbit measurement of data storage and promises to hold in excess of 10X12> LOCs. The new unit goes on sale just in time for this season's channel fest on DynSat XIV.

    1. Re:In other news by scotay · · Score: 1

      Terabiit BM: The official storage media preferred by V'ger.

  4. 1 Terabyte/1sq inch? by xianzombie · · Score: 2, Funny

    1x10^15x5.25= a lot of porn in the space of a single drive bay!!!

    1. Re:1 Terabyte/1sq inch? by oliverthered · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      You've got 5 1/4 inches, how much can I hold on my 8 inch floppy?

      --
      thank God the internet isn't a human right.
    2. Re:1 Terabyte/1sq inch? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1x10^15x(5.25/2)^2x3.141

    3. Re:1 Terabyte/1sq inch? by Zathrus · · Score: 1

      1x10^15 * ((5.25/2)^2 - 0.5^2) * pi

      You can't exactly put data on the drive hub.

    4. Re:1 Terabyte/1sq inch? by pro-mpd · · Score: 2, Informative

      That won't work! You must to use integrals:

      integrate ( 2 * pi * r , r=[0.5,1.6] )

      assuming a 3.5 inch drive with a max radius of 1.6 (remember, the platters aren't 3.5 across... in this case only 1.2)

      this will integrate using a ring method. you could also just do this:

      A = pi * r^2 - pi * 0.5^2

      which will calculate total area and subtract the inner area. meh.

    5. Re:1 Terabyte/1sq inch? by Zathrus · · Score: 1

      which will calculate total area and subtract the inner area

      er... yeah... which is what I was trying to do and failed at. Badly. Multiplication is not distributive across subtraction, back to 4th grade math for me.

  5. Hard Drives Can't Compete by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    As proved by IBM's recent move to dump its storage division, hard drives can't compete with other forms of storage. DRAM memories have gone down in price dramatically, to the point that they are on par with what magnetic storage prices were eight years ago. All this while maintaining their tremendous speed advantage. How far off can battery backed RAM storage systems be?

    The truth is, though, that neither system is much faster than it was eight years ago. While CPU speeds have increased tremendously (ten times or so), RAM and hard disk storage speeds have increased to about twice what they were. The forms of mass storage that have increased much more are getting more compelling. Optical storage has increased in speed dramatically, while falling in price even more dramatically. New higher density DVD replacements can only continue this trend.

    I expect that the combination of cheap super high performance mass storage (battery backed DRAM) and high speed mass optical storage (DVD replacements) will doom hard disks to the history cabinet of history. I know that I will be cheering when they are replaced by high speed optical media. After all, what good is your data if you can't see it?

    1. Re:Hard Drives Can't Compete by unitron · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If your hard drive goes bad you still have a chance of paying some specialist a lot of money to retrieve your data from it and if your data is valuable enough you'll be willing to pay the price. If your battery backup goes bad, the data is gone and nobody can get it back for you at any price.

      --

      I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.

    2. Re:Hard Drives Can't Compete by MeanMF · · Score: 1

      If your battery backup goes bad, the data is gone and nobody can get it back for you at any price.

      Restoring from the previous night's backup usually works pretty well...

    3. Re:Hard Drives Can't Compete by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And a current trend in backup and recovery is towards huege disk based arrays which front up your standard tape silos...

    4. Re:Hard Drives Can't Compete by pro-mpd · · Score: 1

      DRAM is a niche. Hard drives are a niche. Removable is a niche.

      The levels go like this:

      Fastest - Cache, e.g. SRAM. This is clocked to the processor. Low-level stuff, we know it will probably never go away. Think of it like friction in physics: it picks up the slack in a lot of situations, and no matter how much we try to get rid of it, it's still there.

      2nd fastest - Random Access Memory, e.g. DRAM. Stores the large components of what the machine is working with. Fast enough to be an appreciable factor of the proc. bus speed, while still hitting a reasonable price point.

      3rd fastest - Persistent on-line storage, e.g. Hard Drives. Eventually, we may replace with persistent-state RAM, like an addressable crystal or such. It is fast enough to get data into RAM fast enough to keep the processor satiated for, say, the RMS of what the user does (e.g. can feed text, programs, MP3s, videos, but may clog down on extremely high-bandwidth files), but hits a price point so that users can afford enough to hold everything they need day-to-day.

      Slowest - Removable (e.g. optical, tape, etc.). Should hold a persistent "image" of the data it represents. Very cheap, but quite slow, especially since the user must (usually) intervene to bring the data on-line. It's good as a second copy, decent as archive, and piss poor for things the user uses day-to-day.

      These categories will probably persist as long as computers exist.

    5. Re:Hard Drives Can't Compete by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How far off can battery backed RAM storage systems be?

      Oh yay, more temperature sensitive when idle, shorter life span, potential to leak harmful chemicals, worse for the environment. Just what we need.

    6. Re:Hard Drives Can't Compete by Doppler00 · · Score: 1

      How about a non-volatile layer of memory between the RAM and the Hard drive. This wouldn't cache data the same way RAM would, but could be used to cache files used most often on a day-to-day basis. That way, when you first boot up your computer, or load a program it could start up much faster. I guess this would only be useful if you actually turn your computer off.

    7. Re:Hard Drives Can't Compete by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 1

      How about a non-volatile layer of memory between the RAM and the Hard drive.

      Sun has one of those. They use it to make databases go fast. It's 64MB and has a battery on it, so it's big enough for the rewrite log, which is a major bottleneck to throughput.

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
  6. Re:vapor pops to mind by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The wheel comes to mind...

  7. repeat? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    isn't this yet another 'already been posted' news story?

    1. Re:repeat? by spazoid12 · · Score: 1

      ahahaahaaa!!

      I love it. Slashdot editors don't like being told that they suck so their latest method for dealing with people that point out dupes? Mod them down, of course.

      The previous method? Ignore them.

      dupe

  8. 7 Years? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In 7 years, I'll have a CPU built into my chest with data flowing through my veins, at an amazing storage capacity of 1 Terabyte per blood cell!

    1. Re:7 Years? by antiprime · · Score: 1

      In 7 years, I'll have a CPU built into my chest

      What, and restore the heart as the seat of consciousness and emotions? What a backwards notion, since all properly educated forward-thinking citizens agree that wetware CPUs belong inside the bones, replacing all that worthless marrow. Moreover, keeping data in the red blood cells is known to be a security risk. Hope this helps.

  9. Balistic Magno Terrorists?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    Sounds really dangerous! I'm calling Ashcroft now!

    1. Re:Balistic Magno Terrorists?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yup. When Magneto goes balistic, resistance just heats up the situation. Very dangerous.

  10. The more important matter: do they die as often? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Really, for most non-warez (and related) people, a 20GB harddrive would be more than enough. Of course I'm aware of servers, datacenters, people working in film production, the music industry, et al, but these are hardly the majority of harddrive buyers.

    What I'd like to see is not "Terabit blahblah" but "secure, reliable blahblah".

    I don't want one of my harddrives to die every few months, despite quite light use.

    I don't want to have to back everything up in three places, out of fear for losing all my important work.

    I don't want my drives to go *whiiiiiiine KACHLUNK* for no damn reason at all. This actually happened yesterday with a drive only half a year old. Back in the 80s, the drives in my computers never died, and I can still boot up that ol' Macintosh SE, and the harddrive works. That's more than I can say about any of my computers from the late 90's.

    I want my harddrives to be as reliable as my RAM.

  11. Well, it isn't exactly a dupe, but... by Ari+Rahikkala · · Score: 1, Offtopic
    Nickel Sensors Could Raise Hard Disk Capacity.

    At least we got a new link.

    1. Re:Well, it isn't exactly a dupe, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In Soviet Russia, a new link gets you!

  12. Looks like by Timesprout · · Score: 3, Funny

    Chopra said the ballistic electrons lead to clearer binary signals -- at least in part. However, "we don't fully understand how the signal is enhanced to such very large degrees," he said. "The existing theories don't yet explain it. There are some things here no one quite understands. That means there's a lot of science to be discovered yet."
    Look like the Continuum are winding the IBM engineers up this week.

    --
    Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth
    What truth?
    There is no dupe
  13. Indeed... by 26199 · · Score: 1

    Their 'science' bits don't make sense whatsoever. What's that junk about sensors swinging between 0.8 and 1.2 or -1000 and 1000 supposed to mean?

    As far as I can tell all they're trying to say is it's a thousand times more sensitive than current sensors. Maybe.

  14. Watch out Western Digital. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I had a 8GB Quantum Fireball and was very hapy with it for like 6 years. Then I bought a new PC with 40GB Western Digital HDD. TWO DAYS LATER it died! KABOOM.

    I was lucky it was so soon! I went back to the store where they changed it and DEMANDED a quantum this time (called MATROX now).

    I bet my horse you have a Western Digital HDD.
    Yes?

    1. Re:Watch out Western Digital. by sk8king · · Score: 1

      I've got a Western Digital 1.6GB in a 133Mhz...original drive...7 years old. Still a wonderful drive.

      I think that there are bad drive batches and this unfortunately ruins a companies reputation in customers eyes if you happen to buy during a bad run.

    2. Re:Watch out Western Digital. by eatdave13 · · Score: 1

      And I've used Western Digital ever since my first computer, a 386 (1993). I've never had one go bad. I've put Western Digital hard drives into every system I've ever built for friends and family (>100) and never had one go bad. I'm still using the 450MB and 520MB HDs in my firewall/router, and log every denied packet and every confirmed connection to the 520. It's a cable modem, so I get about 2-10 per second. Every bit of data on the drive is rewritten about every 2 weeks. Western Digital rocks, and one failure does not make a bad hard drive. 8 years of continuous usage and one of sitting in a closet without a failure does make a good hard drive.

      --
      "Verbing weirds language." -- Calvin
    3. Re:Watch out Western Digital. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm sitting on 160GB of happy WD hard drives. WD 0wnz j00, baby.

      Last time I had a WD drive die on me was when the cat spilled a glass of water on it.

    4. Re:Watch out Western Digital. by nytes · · Score: 2, Informative

      Gee, it's nice to hear stuff like this once in a while.

      I wrote the software that ran WD's servo-track writers (the last step in manufacturing HD's) at that time.

      At the time, our field tech said that WD was using crappy media (platters), but very smart electronics. Apparently the media is the more expensive part to manufacture. Hence they were able to make hard drives cheaper than others.

      --
      -- I have monkeys in my pants.
  15. So... by jj_johny · · Score: 1, Offtopic

    all that stuff I see on Alias is real then! Next thing ya know that stuff on Star Trek is real too and they just been keeping it from us. What I really want is for all that Batman stuff to be real - I could really use a big car like batman to get through all this snow around my house.

    1. Re:So... by Sir+Tristam · · Score: 0, Offtopic
      I could really use a big car like batman to get through all this snow around my house.
      The right vehicle already exists. The best thing to get you through all that snow is an Avalanche. (You know, sometimes you just have to...)

      Chris

  16. How do they come up with this? by adamofgreyskull · · Score: 4, Interesting
    Chopra said the ballistic electrons lead to clearer binary signals -- at least in part. However, "we don't fully understand how the signal is enhanced to such very large degrees," he said. "The existing theories don't yet explain it. There are some things here no one quite understands. That means there's a lot of science to be discovered yet."

    Do they just try making bits smaller and smaller, and out of increasingly diverse kinds of materials until they find something that works or what? Serious question..
    1. Re:How do they come up with this? by taliver · · Score: 1

      Well, not saying that it applies in this case in the slightest, but a property or behavior can be discovered and put to work well before its even remotely understood.

      One prime example of this is X-Rays. Discovered around 1896-7 timeframe, and put to use setting bones in the fields of the Crimean (or maybe Prussian) war about a month later. All I'm saying is that you may stumble across a regime of high amplification of a signal, and want to exploit it before really understanding the underlying Physics of the situation.

      --

      I demand a million helicopters and a DOLLAR!

    2. Re:How do they come up with this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "If we knew what it was we were doing, it would not be called research, would it?"

      -- Albert Einstein

    3. Re:How do they come up with this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How do you think the lightbulb was invented? Experimenting with lots of different materials by Edison. Trying out multiple materials isn't necessarily bad engineering when you're working with stuff with limited understanding by the physics world. That is, it's not uncommon for discovery/invention to preceed scientific knowledge and understanding.

    4. Re:How do they come up with this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, there is some reason to believe that really narrow wires will have a large magnetoresist. Here are the relevant facts:
      1. Resistance is caused by the scattering of electrons in a material.
      2. In order for an electron to scatter, there must be a state available for it to scatter into.
      3. Magnetoresistance (MR)is an increase in the resistance when a magnetic field is applied due to the increased path length that an electron travels in a magnetic field (it gyrates).
      4. The change in resistance due to MR as a fraction of the total resistance is generally quite small (~1%) because the "background" resistance is high.
      5. Now, make the wire really narrow. If it is so narrow that the electrons begin to see a one-dimensional environment, then there are very few allowed states for the electron. (The density of states goes something like 2^d where d is the dimensionality.)
      6. Result: scattering, and therefore the "background" resistance goes down a lot when the wire is one-dimensional.
      7. Then the MR is much larger as a fraction of the background resistance, and the resulting signal is much higher.

      I think Chopra's point when he says that "There are some things here no one quite understands" is that we don't have a quantititative understanding of the effect. The above qualititative argument is fine, but it's a long way from calculating the magnitude of the effect.

    5. Re:How do they come up with this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Theres more to it then that, but this is the starting point. Electron spin interaction becomes increasingly more pronounced at smaller scales. It appears that the observed signal is far cleaner then theory would suggest. That is less sholdering, etc. Typical read heads produce an RF waveform from which the ones and zeros must be deduced from the coding. ( The read head only sees magnetic transitions. That means that coding is used to produce a stream of tranistions that can be interpreted as a binary stream with immunity from adjecent transitions.) I would not be suprised if the answer to this mistery has to do with point number 5. Effected electrons would have less chance to "flop around". This efect alone could potentialy increase storage densities by an order of magnitude.

  17. slashdot headlines by X_Caffeine · · Score: 4, Funny
    According to the past couple months of Slashdot headlines, the hard drive of tomorrow will use microscopic whiskers, be solid state, use nickel whisker-like filaments (oh wait, this is another repeat post!), be the size of a credit card, cost less than 1$/gig, run at 15000 RPM, use state of the art IBM pixie dust, support bluetooth, might even be Serial-ATA (...nah), and still be full of all the data you forgot to erase.

    Enough "hard drive of tomorrow" articles, already.

    --
    // I will show you fear in a handful of jellybeans.
    1. Re:slashdot headlines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure. Soon as tommorow gets here.

    2. Re:slashdot headlines by sn0wcrash · · Score: 1

      all of these are "emerging technologies". Honestly. shouldn;t we consider this the possible drives of the *future*? Whan I think of the drive of tomorrow, I wanna know what will be available TOMORROW or at least int he very near term. When will I be able to buy a 500gig hard drive? I'm sure this isn;t too far off. Let me know about that. Not just possiblities that have on preliminary research completed.

    3. Re:slashdot headlines by kcelery · · Score: 1

      It's called DHYB (don't hold your breath) drives.

  18. Re:vapor pops to mind by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Haterade

  19. 7 years?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny


    I don't know if I can wait that long. I was hoping it would be more like 5-10 years. ;)

  20. Mechanical drives vs. solid state storage by chancegray · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Shouldn't we be moving over to some time of solid state storage devices soon? It seems like it would be a more reliable solution than all the moving parts in hard drives. Does anyone have some links on this?

    --
    Its obvious Bill Gates made all of his money off of the Vegas version of Windows Solitaire.
    1. Re:Mechanical drives vs. solid state storage by Zathrus · · Score: 1

      I was looking through Buy.com's clearance items last week and came across this. Now there's a deal. 134MB for only $440. And that's at a whopping 86% off! Of course, 134 MB is a bit small... so instead you can buy a 3.2G version. For $28,000. Each. I suspect quantity discounts are available.

      Solid state disk is a long ways off if you want anything even vaguely affordable - there simply isn't enough market demand to make prices reasonable.

  21. The question is... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    How many Libraries of congerss (LOC) can I fit onto a drive the size of a credit card?

  22. Re:vapor pops to mind by anon*127.0.0.1 · · Score: 1

    Duke Nukem 4ever?

    No, wait....

    --
    I am NOT a man!
    I am a free number!
  23. Nanotech by Gryftir · · Score: 3, Interesting

    What's really juicy to me is the applications for nanotech, as mentioned in the article. I wonder if this kind of technology could be used to tranfer data to nanites. Now that *would* be a small hard drive.

    Gryftir

    --
    http://www.santacruzbynight.com/index.shtml Santa Cruz By Night Vampire Larp
  24. It will never get here by AppyPappy · · Score: 5, Funny
    Devices might be on the market in 7 years, give or take."


    That's forever!
    7 years is 49 years in computer years. Seven years ago, I was running Windows 3.1 on a 486 in my office. I'll either be pushing up the daisies or in a zoo with the placard "Last Remaining COBOL Programmer" over my cage.

    --

    If you aren't part of the solution, there is good money to be made prolonging the problem

    1. Re:It will never get here by Kingpin · · Score: 2

      So we should stop researching? Think further back, Windows 3.0 was introduced in 1990 - almost 7 years earlier than you used 3.1... :)

      --
      Unable to read configuration file '/bigassraid/htdig//conf/14229.conf'
      Geocrawler error message.
    2. Re:It will never get here by tbmaddux · · Score: 1
      That's forever! 7 years is 49 years in computer years...
      Just think of how fast it'll run Duke Nuke'em Forever.
      --
      Can't you see that everyone is buying station wagons?
    3. Re:It will never get here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Did you miss that the parent post was trying to be funny? Or do you just like to argue?

    4. Re:It will never get here by Xenographic · · Score: 1

      Nah, 7 years is 111 years in computer years :] Don't you know your binary?

    5. Re:It will never get here by Jester99 · · Score: 1

      It won't run DN Forever...

      But the slashdot stories covering the E3 press releases regarding DN Forever's "forthcoming" release will load hella fast :)

  25. 20 GB enough? by way2trivial · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Really, for most non-warez (and related) people, a 20GB harddrive would be more than enough.
    um, time was, 3.4 gigs were enough Pent II systems
    time was, 200 Megabytes was plenty Pent/Pent PRo
    time was, 20 megaybytes (pc xt) was plenty
    time was, a 300k floppy was plenty apple //e

    Wait for it, and the usefulness of a terabyte to a home user will be achieved in our lifetimes

    --
    every day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
    1. Re:20 GB enough? by OwnedByTwoCats · · Score: 1

      The Apple //e had 140K floppy disks.

      The original 13-sector floppy disks for the Apple ][ and ][+ held 113 3/4k

    2. Re:20 GB enough? by mgessner · · Score: 1

      The Apple //e sported 143K disks (DOS 3.3) :)

      --
      "Sometimes the truth is stupid." - Lawrence, creator of Prime Intellect
    3. Re:20 GB enough? by dontod · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Every time there's a submission about bigger hard drives or faster CPUs someone always says 'you would only need this if you are a pirate/warez d00d'

      I, like others have a DV camcorder. I only have 15 or so hours of tape and I'm currently putting this uncompressed (to use with premiere) online. 1 hour = 13gb, so I'm already using 1 x 120gb drive and 2x 40gb.

      I would *love* a 1 terabyte hard drive right now, not in 3 years. Then I could add my legally owned DVDs, my 400 CDs in an uncompressed format and any other media such as captured TV programs.

      There are many 'legal' home uses for such storage. Luddite!

      Don

      --
      Hello and welcome to the Springfield Police department's Rescue Phone!... You have selected Regicide! (pause) If you know the name of the king or queen being murdered, press one!

      --
      Slashdot - The Home of the Tortured Analogy
    4. Re:20 GB enough? by Dahan · · Score: 1
      DOS 3.3 and later (incl. ProDOS): 35 tracks * 16 sectors/track * 256 bytes/sector = 143360 bytes = 140K

      DOS 3.2.1 and earlier: 35 tracks * 13 sectors/track * 256 bytes/sector = 116480 bytes = 113.75K

  26. What is big enough? by unfortunateson · · Score: 3, Interesting

    No pr0n jokes, please... how big does a hard drive need to be? I mean, once everyone is doing their own digital video, PVR software, archiving their entire music library in MP3 format... you're only up to a couple-hundred GB. Does a 4TB hard drive make sense in a personal computer? Can you apply the TB/inch in much smaller form factors, such as SD cards? Even there, do I need more than, say 20GB on a palm pilot? How do you back up such huge systems? Summary: the server market has a use for these future maxi-drives, but they'll be a hard sell to the general public.

    --
    Design for Use, not Construction!
    1. Re:What is big enough? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Summary: the server market has a use for these future maxi-drives, but they'll be a hard sell to the general public.
      Naysayers. And modded up. Technology is going to progress regardless of how you feel. You aren't in control. And as for a 4 terabyte hard drive I could use 3 of them. 2 in my computer and 1 just to show off to people.

    2. Re:What is big enough? by dwaggie · · Score: 2

      It actually has great use in all media outlets. As we get closer to full integration of the computer into any home environment, who's to say that the PC won't become a headless operator with multiple outputs across the house for access, much like servers are, now? The whole thing to keep is mind is that while hard drives get bigger, the bar for what consumers can have on them will get bigger. As more things move to being 'media center' oriented, you'll find space, speed and clarity improvements across the board. For example, the newest consumer-grade operating system, WindowsXP, is almost 2G on its own, default install. Compare that with W2K, about 1.5G, and Win98, I think a scarce 200M or 500M and you can see that since the default level of hard drive size has risen to about 20G - 40G, so has the general amount of stuff in there.

      You may cry bloatware, and a lot of XP is unnecessary UI, but the cry you give is about the people who would buy it. You cannot educate the masses, and you cannot make their choices for them. All we can do is attempt to push for the best possible outcome. The drive for innovation in any and all areas will give better standards for us all to live on. The bigger hard drives are, the faster processors and RAM must be to fill them.

    3. Re:What is big enough? by irc.goatse.cx+troll · · Score: 3, Informative

      "No pr0n jokes, please..."
      No joke about it - you give me space and I can fill it with pr0n.

      "how big does a hard drive need to be?"
      Infinetly big.

      "I mean, once everyone is doing their own digital video, PVR software"
      There is no limit on the PVR part. Why have to delete old shows when you could put them up on an internal p2p-like engine so people that missed the show can get it?

      "archiving their entire music library in MP3 format..."
      Mp3? Why? We use mp3 to save disk space at the cost of quality. I'm not going to get into a flame war, But if we had the space everything would be lossless.

      "you're only up to a couple-hundred GB"
      After my corrections, You're up to atleast a TB.
      "Does a 4TB hard drive make sense in a personal computer?"
      In 7 years? of course. 7 years ago, did the 200gig+ harddrives we have today make sense? Sure, you have your gifs, your texts from the scene, etc, but thats only a few houndred megs MAX.

      "Can you apply the TB/inch in much smaller form factors, such as SD cards?"
      Sure.
      "Even there, do I need more than, say 20GB on a palm pilot?"
      Factor in constant gps tracking on your palm (A neat new idea no ones done that I know of), Maybe throw some video/mp3 storage (recording?) on there since everyone likes integration.. 20gb sounds great.

      "How do you back up such huge systems?"
      Another?

      "Summary: the server market has a use for these future maxi-drives, but they'll be a hard sell to the general public."
      The general public of today, maybe, but this isnt a product review, its a future technology.

      --
      Pain lasts, kid. Its how you know you're alive. Sometimes I think this growing up thing is just pain management-TheMaxx
    4. Re:What is big enough? by nickclarke · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      You'll need 4TB just to fit all the bloatware included in Windows 2010...

    5. Re:What is big enough? by two_ply · · Score: 2, Insightful
      I mean, once everyone is doing their own digital video, PVR software, archiving their entire music library in MP3 format... you're only up to a couple-hundred GB.

      Remember the days when the advent of Cd-ROMs was to be the death of hard drive space worries? Look at us now: 4 or 5 cd game distributions are fairly common. Every time an MP3/OGG article comes up here a handfull of audiophiles coment on how no true audiophile would give in to a lossy format. These are problems today that could be solved by this.

      Think about future technology though: How much storage space will 3D holographic projections take? With terrabytes of disc space game textures could be highdef photographs. Models in games could have insane detail and polycounts (assuming that other graphics tech keeps advancing). High detail virtual worlds... A driving game where you can drive to every city in the world... I mean.. when's the last time you heard anyone bitch about having too much space on their hands?

    6. Re:What is big enough? by kcelery · · Score: 1

      With a hard disk, I'll put down the book of botany. With a big drive, I'll add photos along. With a even bigger drive, I'll scan the trees and flowers. I'll need a next generation hard disk to store the budding of seeds, blooming of flowers in mpg. Seeeee it never ends.

    7. Re:What is big enough? by io333 · · Score: 1

      how big does a hard drive need to be? I mean, once everyone is doing their own digital video, PVR software, archiving their entire music library in MP3 format... you're only up to a couple-hundred GB

      I don't even know why I'm bothering posting an answer to this question as the answer is probably very obvious to so many folks.

      Every time a get a new generation hard drive that is an order of magnitude bigger than what I had before, I think to myself, "What in the world is going to fill this puppy up?" And the immediate answer in my own mind is always, "I don't know, but I already wish it was much bigger." And you know what? I'm always right. If 100TB drives were common right now, trust me, stuff would come along to fill it.

      I have +-140gigs of storage at home right now, and it's full. I just ordered another 80gigs (which is the best value point right now) and when I was ordering it I was wishing that 200gigs was the best value point and I could afford two of them: one to fill, and one to back up with!

    8. Re:What is big enough? by GlassUser · · Score: 1
      "Even there, do I need more than, say 20GB on a palm pilot?"
      Factor in constant gps tracking on your palm (A neat new idea no ones done that I know of), Maybe throw some video/mp3 storage (recording?) on there since everyone likes integration.. 20gb sounds great.

      I do. Well, it's a pocket pc, but I do it. What I really want is topo maps and surface images, with GPS tracking overlay. That would push pretty much everything.
    9. Re:What is big enough? by vsprintf · · Score: 1

      Does a 4TB hard drive make sense in a personal computer?

      If you don't have one, how are you going to install Windows 2010?

    10. Re:What is big enough? by Maudib · · Score: 1

      So I have been planning my custom pvr lately and have come to the conclusiopns that I need

      All simpsons and futurama ever, 25-30gb

      All Osbourne episodes, 1gb

      Enough music to last a lifetime (or the RIAA's lifetime at least) 20gb
      P0Rn 10gb
      The above 60gb is simply what I need now

      Now the fun part.
      I go through 5dvds a week through netflix. At perfect quality thats about 25gigs a week. So my netflix embezlement scheme will require 1.3 terabytes a year.

      On average there are two television shows playing a week that either I or my girlfriend watch. Thats another 50gb a year.

      So, my entertainment needs require about 1.3terrabytes a year, plus a base requirement of 100gb. I like my data to be safe and fast, so lets use Raid 01 (or is it 10?). Whatever.

      Final assessment, 1.9terrabytes a year are my storage requirements. We are a long ways off.

  27. DRAM Can't Compete by jkrise · · Score: 1

    My present system has more RAM than the disk space on my system a decade ago - a 20MB ST506 winchester. But guess what - I still retain about 5MB of data from that hard disk (mostly docs, personal accounts etc). Disk drives serve a functional need, and will continue to exist - I dare say, forever.

    Storing data in RAM may be faster, RAM prices may get cheaper, but DRAM will never compete. Actually hard disks give better storage life and value than tapes and tape drives for long-term archival.

    Thus disks can acts as:
    RAM - While 'swapping'
    Disks - For storage
    Tapes - For archival.

    Hard to see them fading away anytime soon.

    Most moderators are Morons. Sensible Moderators are Oxymorons.

    --
    If you keep throwing chairs, one day you'll break windows....
  28. First Ninnle Post! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just as I can install Ninnle Linux on it...but Ninnle being Ninnle, it installs on just about anything, from the lowest 386 to the latest P4!

  29. Read infinitesimal..... by milktoastman · · Score: 1

    How do you read/detect infinitesimal magnetic fields, anyway? I assume they just mean "really small," but I don't know what "really small" is in relation to data storage technology. I mean, to me, 1 Gauss is small.

    1. Re:Read infinitesimal..... by Rip!ey · · Score: 1

      You can find some more information in the previous link and slashdot article for this topic. Same story, new link.

  30. Welcome to my life by HiQ · · Score: 2, Funny

    Hard Drives: Ballistic
    whenever I go out to buy new hardware, my wife goes ballistic. Does this count too?

  31. Re:The more important matter: do they die as often by hhg · · Score: 0, Redundant

    > I want my harddrives to be as reliable as my RAM.

    You mean you want them to loose all the data every time you reboot?

  32. 7 years are far too long... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...so it will take seven years until they receive #1 at f'd company.com.. and only 1 or 2 year from now until someone else produces harddrives that outperform their 7 year shit w/o any problems in every detail...

  33. Re:The more important matter: do they die as often by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The parent post ranks up there with "640K of memory should be more than enough for anyone".

    Saying 20GB should be enough for most people lacks a certain amount of perspective that you only get with a lot of time in this industry. (I am guessing that you are less than 25 yrs. old, fairly new to the computer industry, or you really haven't given that comment much though - in haste to make a different point that reliability is more critical than size....tell my girlfriend that.)

    When 40MB drives came out, similar comments were made. When miniscule hard drives came out on the PC AT, similar comments were made.

    The reality is that it's difficult to foresee what the future will bring as far as storage needs, but the cool thing about this industry is that storage requirements expand to meet or exceed capacity.

    Here's a case in point.... Do you think that the average person's brain holds less than 20GB of data? I bet it's FAR more. My feeling is that a PC designed to assist the human can grow to demand similar amounts of storage to the human brain - why not?

    So my non-revolutionary prediction is that average software for average people will continue to demand more and more storage for the next century, and that 10 years from now, YOU will shutter at the fact that you ONLY have 20GB on that old circa-2003 PC, or will have long since abandon it for a much larger storage medium.

    Please come back to slash-dot in 10 years and repeat your comment that 20GB is plenty for the average user.

  34. Reliability? Magic Pixie Dust Breakthrough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Not as good as solid state memory? questions of reliability? don't slashdotters know that Magic Pixie Dust has solved reliability problems? You obviously have not been using enough quarters in your Future of Business Glasses!

  35. sensitive by derhurz · · Score: 4, Funny
    ...at room temperature can detect a 100,000 percent change in voltage...

    Big deal. I detected a similar change in voltage in my body, last time I was messing with the wiring in my flat.

    --
    -- yes, i know it hurz...
    1. Re:sensitive by bryan1945 · · Score: 1

      "-- yes, i know it hurz... "

      In this case, wouldn't it be
      --yes, I know it hertz...?

      --
      Vote monkeys into Congress. They are cheaper and more trustworthy.
  36. Re:Stop The QWERTY curse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I agree.. and this is toally on topic ... who modded this post down?

    why do people even mod down anyway.. a post like this isn't going to get modded up.. it will remain at 0.. do you need to mod it down lower for some reason? who gives a fuck..

    instead of concentrating on modding lower.. why not use your points on modding up truly worthwhile comments -- like mine.

    free james brown

  37. Re:The more important matter: do they die as often by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You've just had bad luck, or I've had good: I had an IBM 10-giger on my Dell laptop that was in 24/7 extremely heavy use for well over a year until it died. The reason was a cup of juice I spilled on it. What a crappy HD :P Dell replaced it for free, no questions asked (warranty was past its due date). The replacement worked fine in similar use for two years until I sold the laptop.

    Now I've had two desktop HDs (Maxtor 4D060H3 and 4K040H2) which have been in even heavier use for over a year, no glitches whatsoever.

    I can vouch that my HDDs go through constant stress-testing: 24 hours on, 7 days a week, FTP-transfers, eMule (hashing large files is a killer), seti@home/folding@home, all running at the same time.

  38. Backups? by KingDaveRa · · Score: 1

    Can you imagine the tape backups for this? We'd have tapes the size of suitcases, and a backup run taking days instead of hours. Or maybe in the dim and distant future we'll all have raided systems.

    1. Re:Backups? by cdn-programmer · · Score: 1

      In many situations backup tapes are no longer practical for 160GB drives. It is cheaper to duplicate the disk (mirror it) and if you need archival - pull out the old drive and put it on a shelf.

      What we need to consider developing (IMHO) is "net" based backups of critical data. This is where we may mirror critical files in another machine that is at a sister site. Thus a fire at the primary site would for instance not result in the loss of critical data. Many (most?) small businesses never consern themselves with organising a "proper" backup system. right?

    2. Re:Backups? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you use 1.44MB floppy disks to backup your 200GB harddrive today?

      Maybe.... just maybe, the backup technology will also get better?

    3. Re:Backups? by C0vardeAn0nim0 · · Score: 1

      Backups exist not only to prevent dataloss in case of disk malfunction. it exists also to protect against PEBKAC erros.

      Last time I managed an office network I had to deal with at least "can you restore file xxxyyy.dwg from the backup ???"

      so if disks are geting bigger, it's better for quantum to increase the size of their DLT tapes too.

      --
      What ? Me, worry ?
  39. Re:The more important matter: do they die as often by ThatMadeNoSense · · Score: 1

    you want them to loose all the data

    That made no sense.

  40. Flawed Premise by dreamchaser · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'd like to know what you base your assumptions on. I do not have one byte of warez or pirated anything on my main workstation at home, and I'm using 54 out of 60 gig. Add up the OS, applications/games, MP3's (ripped from CD's that I bought legally), personal data, etc. etc.

    I just love when people make pronouncements like that here, like they have actually done a survey and statistical analysis.

    Twenty gigabytes is enough for a casual PC user, barely. I'd say 60-100 is a better bet for today's 'power user', at a minimum.

    1. Re:Flawed Premise by oconnorcjo · · Score: 1
      Twenty gigabytes is enough for a casual PC user, barely. I'd say 60-100 is a better bet for today's 'power user', at a minimum.

      I have more than three opperating systems on my machine and I can tell you that 120 + gigs is not enough! (Don't all power users have multiple operating systems and VM's?) ;)

      --
      I miss the Karma Whores.
    2. Re:Flawed Premise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      20 GB would hold about 15 pieces of my artwork. I'm not a profesional artist, its only a hobby that counterbalances my programming career. But I have gotten pretty complex. 3200 x 2400 or larger with 16 to 40 layers and all sorts of auxilary files all saved with multiple versions. All this stuff goes into a directory. That directory is what I refer to as a piece of art. I can't wait to find out what my HD ussage is going to be like when I start doing animation.

  41. Well, sometimes the results aren't what you expect by Kjella · · Score: 1

    Sounds to me like this "ballistic electron" effect is a direct consequence of narrower signal paths, probably some ugly quantum theory behind it. Yes it's the kind of effect they probably simply ran into.

    It's kinda the same kind of thing that happened when they had accelerated an electron to 1/10th lightspeed, and wanted to make it go ten times as fast. The classic theory used to say that would require 10^2 = 100 times the energy.

    I imagine we'll see a lot more of these quantum problems show up as we develop nanotechnology...

    Kjella

    --
    Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
  42. Re:The more important matter: do they die as often by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The data is tight... then when you reboot, it loosens.

    I think he meant LOSE all the data.

  43. Correction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Tapes - Temporary backup.
    Optical - Permanent backup.

    Tapes, or any magnetic media for that matter, are not suitable for long term storage. Use CDs or DVDs for long term storage.

    1. Re:Correction by pro-mpd · · Score: 1

      um, DVD rot?

      I cannot see DRAM ever taking over the role of hard drives. Perhaps a solid state, persistent state memory, but not RAM. Ever.

      Removable media will remain for consumers and cheap, non-critical archiving. Hard drives are best for archives, and medium-access storage and always will be.

    2. Re:Correction by Splab · · Score: 1

      no papyrus is the best thingy for storage, and a good librarian is best way of retrieving this :)
      I once heard / dreamt / imagined that early cd's would decay after about 2 years, newer cd's does live longer, but arent a good bet. Magnetic stuff ie. hdd, tapes etc. fades afaik over years, so the best long term storage imo would be the egyptian style, the after all lasted 2000 years or so

    3. Re:Correction by nytes · · Score: 1

      You may not be that far off base.

      I've been thinking of writing docs using HTML/XML/what-have-you, and then printing out the raw text, in an easily OCR-able font, as a document archive medium. Include some kind of error detection code that allows the OCR software to detect a misread. If all else failed, the unformatted document text could still be read and hand entered by a typist.

      Now if I can just come up with an efficient, non-lossy, way of storing pictures and sound on paper (which is really where the exercise started).

      --
      -- I have monkeys in my pants.
    4. Re:Correction by antiprime · · Score: 1

      papyrus is the best thingy for storage

      "The ironic part is whether the digitized versions will last/be usable longer then the clay tablets."

      http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/05 /1 7/184237

  44. you're missing his point by X_Caffeine · · Score: 1

    Hard drive space requirements are going to vary from user to user, and I think it's a safe assumption that most hard drives are far larger than a typical user needs, but that's not the point.

    Hard drives don't appear to have the life that they used to. On top of that, most major hard drive manufacturers cut their warranties from three to one year.

    That sucks. Maybe hard drives are big enough, just for now. Maybe they need to start being constructed better again.

    --
    // I will show you fear in a handful of jellybeans.
    1. Re:you're missing his point by InadequateCamel · · Score: 1

      (Begin pessimistic rant)

      Better, more reliable construction? Why would manufacturers do that? I guarantee they have the ability to build drives that will last 5X as long for a nominal price increase, but they will lose all their business at this rate. HD manufacturers are already seeing a decline in sales relative to the number of PC's out there because people who buy 120GB HD's are often quite content with this and don't go buy another.

      It's just like the car industry: they used to build cars that, given a little TLC, could operate for decades - hence antique auto shows - but now they die much sooner than that. How many Toyota Tercels are you going to see at antique car shows 50 years from now? Zero, because (other than the fact that they are ugly and they suck :-)) to quote every single person who's generation has given way to a new & improved version, "they don't make 'em like they used to". Cars are not built to last, they are built with a short usable life in mind so that consumers will keep buying new cars.

      Same thing with HDs. Most reasonable people back up their important information in one form or another so these companies have no qualms about making a limited-use product. Sometimes they do this so well that the HD dies on shipment or shortly thereafter so they recall them, tweak the design, claim there was an oversight that has now been resolved, and return their slightly-less accident-prone product to the market. Perhaps some companies are a little less insistent on screwing their customers, but I suspect they all do it in one form or another, and I suspect that they target home PC users (with much less individual buying power) than companies (with large server farms and big contracts).

      If I were out to make as much money as possible that is pretty much how I would do it: rapid turnover of product.

      (end pessimistic rant)

    2. Re:you're missing his point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Hard drives don't appear to have the life that they used to.

      Thank God! Back in the 80s, I used to have a 20% failure rate each year. Now they hardly ever fail. And usually it's the bearings, so I hear it first and get any important data off. I don't care what the warranty is, because the cost of failure can be worst than the cost of the drive (before I went to RAID).

  45. Stop the dupe madness by MrJones · · Score: 1

    It is a dupe :-)

    --
    Get my e-mail after a captcha test in: http://tinymailt
  46. Re:Stop The QWERTY curse by eatdave13 · · Score: 1

    C am ercbi orm.ydcbi axrgy cyw xgy ,d.b C yfl. cb ekrpatw br rb. gbe.poyabeo a ,rpe C-m oafcbi!

    D.nl m.v

    --
    "Verbing weirds language." -- Calvin
  47. Streaming is the future... by Kjella · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If you're connected to a fat pipe, people tend to stop worrying so much about hoarding stuff, and start using it instead. I know some people sitting on a 100mb line, and they're mostly interested in streaming stuff. E.g. stream music from their computer to the computer at the party they're at, for instance. Or to download at whereever they can plug in with their portable player.

    The reasoning is this - if you can stream it faster than you can use it, why care about downloading it? E.g. they look at other peoples movies over the network - directly from that machine. Unlike now, where everybody with a slower line (even normal broadband is "slow" for what I'm talking about) "have to" have their own copy. Imagine if you and your friends simply mutually mapped up folders, would easily cut hard disk use by far.

    This just works for things that are naturally streamable, like music and movies. As for things where you need the full thing at once, like games, I remember "The 7th Guest" that came on 2 CDs back in... ancient history. Most games are still on 3 CDs or less. So relative to hard disks, they've become smaller and smaller...

    So yes, I also think that the need for enormous hard disks might not be that incredibly big. But not because they don't need it - people will simply have access to other peoples files as excellent substitutes.

    Kjella

    --
    Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
  48. Yes they can by Groo+Wanderer · · Score: 1

    I can go out to the local mega-buy and, while being fed bullshit by undertrained sales slugs, pick up 200GB 3.5" form factor hard drives till I get bored. Now, assuming they are about 3.5*5*.5inches, you have just over 10 cubic inches. Find me ANY dram based storage that you can BUY NOW that has anything near the density. I can get, not locally though, 1 GB dimms, and have heard of 4GB, but have not actually held one in my hand, so they don't exist in my reality. Even if they do, try to fit 50 of them in that space and not have them melt.

    Now, I am purposely leaving cost and speed out of this. While they are much faster, a quick check of pricewatch shows a 1G PC2100 DIMM is only $4 more than a 200GB HD. 50 DIMMs is slightly more than 1 200GB HD. Pretty competitive if I do say so myself, even ignoring the cost of a platform that could handle that much memory.

    Lastly, if you look at non-volatile memory, like flash, again ignoring the problems like finite writes, it is in the same price ballpark, though MUCH slower in speed than DDR. Pick your poison, but I will take HDs for 2% the cost, and about a 75% speed hit thank you.

    -Charlie

    1. Re:Yes they can by Eccles · · Score: 1

      Lastly, if you look at non-volatile memory, like flash, again ignoring the problems like finite writes, it is in the same price ballpark, though MUCH slower in speed than DDR.

      But how does it compare to a hard drive in speed, and in read reliability? One could consider, for example, putting the OS on flash memory for quick booting and maybe program loading, if it compares well in both aspects.

      --
      Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a real useful invention.
    2. Re:Yes they can by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But how does it compare to a hard drive in speed, and in read reliability? One could consider, for example, putting the OS on flash memory for quick booting and maybe program loading, if it compares well in both aspects.

      Flash memory is very slow. Typically quite a bit faster than a floppy, but much slower than a hard drive.

  49. Re:What is big enough?-never-too big by mrycar · · Score: 1

    Lets see, I currently have 1.4TB of storage and always looking to add more.

    On that storage I have my DVD electronic jukebox, (not-pirated), my mp3's, images of my various computers builds (past, present, and future) Archives of all my computer CD's, over 20,000 5mp digital images, a ton of food recipes, complete with digital images, 6 years of archived non-spam email, and tons of other stuff.

    You know what I definitely need more space, for my Digital video's, my Oracle instances, More digital images, my archive of my older Atari, amiga, apple software, my automotive repair manuals and videos, my home repair books and videos, my index for all the info, and tons of other things I haven't thought of.

    Don't think you'll ever need this stuff? Well, once you've played with having much of the stuff you need online, the need for it increases. Yea, today large amounts of data may be a lunatic fringe, but tomorrow it will be normal.

    I also want less spinning disks, when you have TB of data on scsi and ide drives, failure of drives becomes more common

    Now I just need to scrape up enough $$$ to purchase an EMC SAN.

    --
    Gator/Claria is Spyware.
  50. Re:The more important matter: do they die as often by Khalid · · Score: 1

    The next trend is that hard as drives costs will continue to drop, you will see more and more of them in consumer products market, like hifi, vcr, and so on, to store music, movies, TV and radio programs, and those devices have never enough hard drive space.

  51. Re:The more important matter: do they die as often by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

    One of the most stressful things for a hard disk is the spinning up and spinning down. If your hard disk is in use 24/7, then it is not being sufficiently stressed. Try telling it to power down after 10 minutes idle, and user your computer like an average office user for a year (saving work every 15 minutes), and watch the drives burn.

    --
    I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  52. (ot) SLASHDOT, I CAN FIX YOUR PROBLEMS!!! by raygundan · · Score: 1

    I've posted this before, but this time gets a disclaimer. This one isn't quite a dupe, since we got a new link. New article, new take on the subject, blahblahblah. But I make my offer anyway:

    For a reasonable fee per story, I am offering my services to the editors of /. as a proofreader and duplicate checker. Additionally, I will assist if necessary (at a negotiable hourly rate) in adding code to automatically send the draft article blurbs to my wireless device. I am unable to proofread overnight (I have to sleep sometime), so that will have to be covered by another shift, or written off as "happy slashdot error time."

    Note that volunteers for the night shift and hangover/holiday time have already been obtained.

    I cannot guarantee 100% error correction, but I will stake my job on significantly decreased rates of grammar and spelling mistakes, and far fewer duplicate postings.

    I would also like a T-shirt that says "I work for slashdot".

    Please, for the sake of your readers, hire me. I want to help!

    This offer will be repeated (as is fitting) with each dupe.

    1. Re:(ot) SLASHDOT, I CAN FIX YOUR PROBLEMS!!! by spazoid12 · · Score: 1

      For a reasonable fee per story, I am offering my services to the editors of /. as a proofreader and duplicate checker

      You mean, you're willing to be another /. editor?? If you became one, your good intentions would fade within days. Soon you'd be posting dupes and saying, like CommanderTaco, "It's a dupe, but it's still neat!!!!!

    2. Re:(ot) SLASHDOT, I CAN FIX YOUR PROBLEMS!!! by JM+Apocalypse · · Score: 1

      WHY WOULD ANYONE WANT TO PAY FOR YOUR SERVICES Slashdot is a free, open-source service, and if you try to make it closed and proprietary, it would ruin the entire point of the project. It just sounds to me like you are a new programmer that is too over-confident of his skills, and wishes to be PAID for everything. This is the open-source world. The open-source community is based upon free software. If you want to fix slashdot, work on the software that slashdot is based upon. Geesh. Hire me .. no hire me. Enough is enough.

      --

      - - - - - - -
      Orppf urp mf y.ppcxn. yflcbi otcnnov C am yflcbi yr n.apb Ekrpatv (Dvorak -> Qwerty)
    3. Re:(ot) SLASHDOT, I CAN FIX YOUR PROBLEMS!!! by antiprime · · Score: 1

      that is too over-confident of his skills

      who is too over-confident

  53. SSD is still a very small niche... by Kjella · · Score: 2, Insightful

    They're still priced as server-class disks for holding stuff that gets used often, kinda like a huge cache. I was hoping they would start showing up in laptops, as they would have the most need of shock protection, but so far I haven't seen any. Presumably, with all the laptops being used as the *only* PC, most people want a fairly sizable hard disk and not just a few GB of SSD, and I don't think there's room for both. As for me, having both a PC + a laptop, I would certainly welcome a SSD laptop.

    P.S. If you want links, check out http://www.storagesearch.com/ssd.html

    Kjella

    --
    Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
  54. 8=========D should be big enough for anyone! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That's a mighty long penis.

  55. Western Digital - "no hassle" replacements by Rick.C · · Score: 1
    I've been a regular WD user since the early '90s. I've had several of them go bad. Most of the failures were after a year or two, but one or two were "early life failures". I've also had some Seagates, Quantums, Maxtors, IBMs and Fujitsus, all of which have died. In my experience, the Maxtors are better than average and the Seagates worse than average as far as failure rates.

    The big difference is that the WD and Fujitsu drives were quickly and cheerfully replaced under warranty. None of the others were. Some people might argue that WD has to have a great replacement policy because their drives fail so often. My experience is that WD drives fail about as much as everyone else's.

    Yeah, I mirror my data drives and keep a Ghost copy of all my boot drives on bootable CDs for when the inevitable happens, but that's just "due diligence".
    --
    You were 80% angel, 10% demon. The rest was hard to explain. - Over The Rhine
    "Math in a song is good."-Linford
    1. Re:Western Digital - "no hassle" replacements by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've always counted myself lucky with hard disks. I have a 4 year old compaq with a HD that's humming along fine, a 1 year old WD, and my uber-old compaq that I sold to my friend still works great.

      You must have pretty bad luck with hard drives.

  56. Don't be short-sighted... by gosand · · Score: 3, Insightful
    No pr0n jokes, please... how big does a hard drive need to be? I mean, once everyone is doing their own digital video, PVR software, archiving their entire music library in MP3 format... you're only up to a couple-hundred GB. Does a 4TB hard drive make sense in a personal computer? Can you apply the TB/inch in much smaller form factors, such as SD cards? Even there, do I need more than, say 20GB on a palm pilot? How do you back up such huge systems? Summary: the server market has a use for these future maxi-drives, but they'll be a hard sell to the general public.

    It still amazes me that tech people can be so short-sighted.

    Stop thinking with your current brain - think with the brain that you'll have in 10 years! Think about where we were 10 years ago. What was the fastest PC you could buy? I believe that the Pentium was just being released. Now I have a Pentium that just acts as my firewall, because it can't really do much else. Hard drives were around 200 MB I think. What if engineers back then said "why would you ever need more than 200 MB?" Reasons for more storage? How about 100GB on a card the size of a compact flash card. For what? How about to replace DVDs? We rip our music to the MP3 format to save space. We encode movies to save space. Ask a TiVO owner if they would like to have a TB drive. Then ask a TiVO owner who has HDTV.

    Your backup issues are not relative either. How do you back up a 100MB drive? With a bigger drive. How do you back up a 10GB drive? With a bigger drive. You can see where this is going.

    Think about this: Look at the way drives work now. We (well, the OS really) reuses the space on them, and has to keep track of where all the data physically resides on the disk. What if the drive was so large, say 10 TB, that you didn't need to do that? Instead of deleting something off the drive, you simply write it to a new location and move on. I know that is what happens now, but there would me less management of that data if it didn't have to consider size constraints. Now we use disks that spin, and talk about seek time and platters. With advances in storage, these could be things of the past. Who knows, maybe data will be stored in an organically organized 3D matrix of atomic-level particles, and seek time will be static. Maybe there will be no heat build-up, no moving parts to fail.

    The possibilities of endless, instant-access storage would be amazing. 24/7 digital video recording for security systems. Las Vegas alone could use this. No more wondering "do I have enough space to install this?". Want to install the latest release of RedHat 23.0, just install it to a new partition (or quadrant, or whatever we have) and go.

    I am just throwing out stuff here, but we have advanced pretty far in 10 years because of advancements in technology. Sure, the ideas have been there too, but the technology has to be in sync for it to take off. (Apple Newton?) I know the tech industry hasn't been around that long, but we have some history to look back on. Don't say things like "I'll never use that much space" or "Why would I need a processor that powerful?". We will need it, we will think of ways to use it.

    --

    My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.

    1. Re:Don't be short-sighted... by sam_nead · · Score: 1
      Think about this: Look at the way drives work now. We (well, the OS really) reuses the space on them, and has to keep track of where all the data physically resides on the disk. What if the drive was so large, say 10 TB, that you didn't need to do that? Instead of deleting something off the drive, you simply write it to a new location and move on.

      Hmm. This is an interesting idea --- never throw anything away (files, history list, web clicks), and stick time stamps on everything. The operating system becomes (or rather, includes) a revision control system. Reverting to a previous copy of the code is trivial. Resetting your life to three days ago is trivial. Changing your mind about that is easy, too.

      One hopes that this sort of thing doesn't become an enforcement tool.

  57. The problem(s) with solid state by wiredog · · Score: 1
    First is that the cost/gb is much higher. The second is that non-volatile flash memories have a limited number of writes. 1000 or so for compact flash media, IIRC. Non-volatile, battery backed, has the problem of: What if the battery dies?

    What might work is, say, a 1 gigabyte solid state module for the OS and files needed at boot (GUI, etc), for startup speed,and maybe another for the most commonly used applications. Everything else, including data, goes on large hard drives.

  58. Re:The more important matter: do they die as often by colenski · · Score: 1

    Your mileage may vary. I remember selling 5 1/4" 20 MB SCSI and ESDI drives for $1200 Cdn in 1988. Almost all of them kacked after a couple thousand hours, like a light bulb. In fact, they actually came with a label that told you, outright, how many bad sectors the drive had *from the factory*. But the 20mb ESDI on my original Compaq luggable still boots, and runs fine to this day. I turn it on once a year, when I'm feeling nostalgic.

  59. Re:The more important matter: do they die as often by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I want to know what that *whiiiiiiine KACHLUNK* noise is, it happens about once a day with a new drive i bought a couple of months ago.

    Everytime I hear it a shiver runs down my spine in fear of my investment going up in flames.

    Anyone know what it is or why it happens, and if there's anything that can be done about it???

  60. Re:Stop The QWERTY curse by spazoid12 · · Score: 1

    How can a post be offtopic if it's a reply to a dupe?

    There is no such thing as an offtopic reply to a dupe story.

    Whenever you see a dupe, you'll see hundreds of posts, like mine here, pointing out the dupeness. And you'll see a bunch of "in soviet russia" jokes. Dupes are offtopic themselves. They don't do anything except exist as a place for people to point out that not only do the /. editors suck, but the /. search feature is plenty krunky as well.

  61. How could an Honest Politician be on the market? by addikt10 · · Score: 1

    How could an Honest Politician be on the market?

    Oh, I get it. This definition must be simply that the politician tells the truth - "Hell yeah, I'll work on passing that bill if you donate $100,000 to my campaign. That, plus another $50,000 when it has passed so that I don't change my mind when elections roll around."

    Nope - not my idea of "honest"

  62. Re:The more important matter: do they die as often by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Here's a radical idea. *Don't* move the heads. Put hundreds of these magic wiskers in fixed positions so that you only get a few (20) gig from a one platter drive. Reliability will go up, access time will go down.

  63. Re:The more important matter: do they die as often by Splab · · Score: 1

    Also you have to take in account the amount of crap that most wysiwyg software happens to dump a shitload of nothing into documents (thx billy) so they take up waaay more that they should.

  64. Re:The more important matter: do they die as often by Splab · · Score: 1

    as far as I remember most dynamic ram happens to refresh a heck of a lot (something bout how long time those litlle black thingies remember the stuff, so they need more juice (and time) to refresh themselfs)

  65. And Duke Nukem Forever... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    damn lameness filter

  66. Re:you're missing his point-Status quo. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Better, more reliable construction? Why would manufacturers do that?"

    From their perspective, if their goal is to make as much money as possible, as soon as possible? Then yes continue with planned obsolesense.

    From the perspective of the consumer who is tired of the cost and headache of planned obsolesence then the manufacturers are digging their own graves.

    In other words. If the consumer don't demand that companies take the road that benefits the consumer (water flowing uphill), then companies will naturally take the downhill route (path that benefits them).

    So the answer to the question depends on how much tolerance we have for the status quo.

  67. It's not the brand, it's the technology by orim · · Score: 1

    So often you'll hear people say: Yeah, I've used brand X for Y years (where Y>5), and none of them have ever failed. I was one of those till recently (X=Maxtor, Y=6), until two 80Gb Maxtor drives bit the dust (one during a simple reboot, and the other one during a copy operation). If you haven't had a large capacity drive fail yet,
    a) consider yourself lucky
    b) back up!!!

    A buddy of mine works in a data recovery company. They see all sorts of drives (brands, capacities), and according to him, the drives that fail the most are those over 60Gb, almost irregardless of the brand.
    It makes sense too, if you
    a) pack that much more data into a smaller space
    b) spew out 10x more drives out of your factories than you used to,

    something has to give.
    BACK UP YOUR DATA!

    --
    "If you could only see what I've seen with your eyes..." - Roy Batty
    1. Re:It's not the brand, it's the technology by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I worked in the HD industry for a few years. Most people take the technology for granted. The truth is, that HD work at all is amazing. Almost everyone thinks that the read head sees 1s and 0s. Actually what the read head sees is a nasty looking rf waveform with sholdered peaks and interference from adjacent areas. Platter substrates are not the uniform, defect free surface everyone assumes. Drive motors take an incredible amount stress and generate a lot of heat that needs to be managed. Its not bad design, its physics. Read heads are so fragile that some can be damaged by blowing on them too hard. Add to this that many people in the drives distribution channle don't know squat about the proper handeling of hard drives, its a miracle any work at all.

      I've had the best luck ( literaly in my opine) with IBM SCSI drives. I would not use anything but SCSI. They are built so much better. I have never had one fail at home, but I did loose an external 18Gig IBM drive on my main system at work, and also an ancient 2.1G internal IBM drive on another workstation. I am pretty sure the external had been dropped at some point, but the 2.1 gig???

      BACK UP YOUR DATA!

  68. Re:20 GB enough? You can have a Terabyte now! by Nom+du+Keyboard · · Score: 1
    Was just telling another friend yesterday that a home user can have an affordable terabyte of rotating storage now. Raid controller and 3x320GB drives. I don't need it yet, but it's achievable.

    My question is, how long until a desktop with a TByte of ram? Consider:
    10 years ago, 1GB of ram was unimaginable.
    20 years ago, 1GB of disc was unimaginable.

    Today 1TB of ram doesn't seem any more unimaginable then those previous levels did in their day.

    --
    "It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
  69. Re:The more important matter: do they die as often by Dahan · · Score: 2, Informative
    In fact, they actually came with a label that told you, outright, how many bad sectors the drive had *from the factory*.

    Not just how many bad sectors, but their cylinder/head/sector numbers too. At least for the ESDI drives, that's because you'd have to manually key in the defect list when you formatted the thing. Today's drives do automatic defect management--drives still come with a list of bad sectors; the list is just stored on the platters themselves, rather than on a printed label. You can query the drive for its "P-list" (primary defect list) to get the sectors that were bad from the factory, and its "G-list" (grown defect list) to get the sectors that have gone bad since you got the drive.

  70. Re:The more important matter: do they die as often by antiprime · · Score: 1

    I want my harddrives to be as reliable as my RAM.

    Two easy solutions. Use a RAID array for your hard drives, or a hammer for your RAM.

    For the first solution, if all you want is 20GB, you can buy the smallest cheapest slowest hard drives in the world, put them in a RAID array. When one goes TU, swap it out for a new one.

    For the second solution, it sounds like you'll need to hit the chips really hard. If I had to guess, I'd say you have a lot of vibrations in your environment to make your hard drives die so quickly while your RAM manages to stay alive.

  71. Re:The more important matter: do they die as often by stripes · · Score: 1
    Really, for most non-warez (and related) people, a 20GB harddrive would be more than enough. Of course I'm aware of servers, datacenters, people working in film production, the music industry, et al, but these are hardly the majority of harddrive buyers.

    Add photographers to that list. I have shot close to 1G worth of still images in a day, and that is using lossy compression and a "mere" 3Mpixel camera.

    Back in the 80s, the drives in my computers never died, and I can still boot up that ol' Macintosh SE, and the harddrive works.

    Lots of older drives failed too. The drive in the Lisa (aka Mac XL...well, once new ROMs were put in) was prone to failure. I remeber the double eagle drives in the late 80s being failure prone too.

    I want my harddrives to be as reliable as my RAM.

    I want my car to be able to drive to mars, but it doesn't seem likely, nor does it seem likely that a highly complex mechinical device with exceptionally tight tolerences and moving parts will be as reliable as a solid state device.

    I quite want a reliable drive too. Fast would be nice, very arge storage capacity would be very very nice. Affordable woud also be nice. In fact it doesn't have to be a drive, it could be something that acts like one, but FLASH ROM is still too slow (to erase, reads are fast if you design right) and too costly.

  72. Hmmmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How many DVD's per square cubit is this?

  73. Re:The more important matter: do they die as often by glenebob · · Score: 1
    The parent post ranks up there with "640K of memory should be more than enough for anyone".

    I'll go ahead and agree with the parent. Sortof. I'd rather have 20GB of fast data storage than 100GB of current-speed stuff. I don't have a lot of reliability problems with hard drives, but I sure do sit and wait for head seeks.

    "...reliability is more critical than size....tell my girlfriend that."

    And if she disagrees, dump her. Certainly don't ever marry her.

  74. Re:The more important matter: do they die as often by Jordy · · Score: 1

    There are quite a few things that are quite useful that you can't do today because of lack of storage:

    1) Rip your DVDs (media server) (approx 5 GB/DVD on average, new BluRay DVDs much more)

    2) Record HDTV (next gen PVR) (7.2 GB/hour max for ATSC)

    3) Record every channel on your cable at once (45 GB/hour approx with 100 channels at 1 Mbps)

    4) Store all my DV cam footage on my hard drive (11 GB/hour)

    So yes, today if I had a 1 TB drive, I could very well make use of it as could many others.

    --
    The world is neither black nor white nor good nor evil, only many shades of CowboyNeal.
  75. Re:Well, sometimes the results aren't what you exp by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Actualy the basic theory has been around for a while, and yes, from what I've seen, the math is pretty ugly. Its kind of like the LASER. The theory had been around well befor anyone figured out how to make one. Nowadays we take LASERs for granted.

  76. Re:you're missing his point-Status quo. by InadequateCamel · · Score: 1

    Unfortunately there is just about no way to reverse it. The first comment out of the mouth of (insert company here)'s president will be something along the lines of "We can do what ever we want. What are you going to do, stop buying HDs?" And he is 100% correct. If all the companies are playing ball then it is just a matter of choosing the lesser of several evils. The number of discerning customers is probably roughly matched or exceeded by the number of oblivious customers, so the status quo stays to the detriment of us all.