Slashdot Mirror
Interwoven Patents Code Versioning
webengr writes "It seems like the USPO is pretty lenient when it comes to awarding software patents. CVS has been around for a long time, but now Interwoven has been awarded a new patent covering version control of web assets. The claims include, 'The use of a hierarchical file system and an object repository for representing and hosting content and its structure,' and 'The combined concepts of file history, versioning, comparison, and merging as it relates to content, provide an archive of all individual changes as well as collections of changes so they can be versioned and audited.'"
I'm just wondering if the patent being granted is someone hinged on Interwoven's claim to be the first to do version control for 'web assets' (ie, HTML, images) as opposed to source code.
The fact that there's no technical difference between version control on an HTML file and version control on a 'C' file seems to be the sort of thing that's lost on the patent office.
I think the patents should be reformed in the following way:
1. Submit the patent idea to the patent office- as a "pending patent".
2. Patent office does a search (web or otherwise) on prior art, billing the individual/corporation that submits the patent at a standard rate. If no prior art is found, the patent office does not bill. The company is able to challenge any claims to prior art. Each challenge to a claim at prior art costs a certain fee.
3. Patent is awarded to the individual/corporation.
Basically the idea behind this is that companies will be charged for their stupidity. It will discourage patents on ideas that are already "out there" (patented or not). At the same time, it will *not* discourage individuals from ligitimate patents as they will be reimbursed for the "prior art search fee".
In addition, the Patent Office still gets its money and they begin providing real value.
Until something like this happens, we will all have to groan as the patent office continues to do stupid stuff and lawyers get richer.
Insightful? Let's look at this - the patent office gets money for granting patents. They don't have an incentive not to grant patents. Why is anyone surprised when patents are granted?
sic transit gloria mundi
I spent two years working on something like this. I started work on it in Feb 2000.
Crap. This is what I find fascinating - patents are supposed to protect your "years of work", and yet this has actually written off everything I've done.
When is this insanity going to end?
On the bright side, I live in europe, where it doesn't apply - I guess the Americans loose out - I won't be releasing my software to America.
Deep in the company's website, they state, " With this patent, Interwoven joins the class of top tier software companies that recognize that market leadership is directly related to continued innovation combined with the protection of intellectual property. Patents represent the most effective and powerful way to ensure that a company protects its long-term investment in research, design and innovation."
Unfortunately, the fallacy of the first part of that self-serving statement is that history demonstrates the contrary: Innovation, especially in the area of software innovation, has been most successful in an atmosphere of sharing, openness, mutual support and peer-recognition. This is well-documented by Manuel Castells, Lawrence Lessig and others. Patents impede the advance of innovation by preventing potential competitors from innovating. With patent protection, innovation is limited to those who can afford the overhead of traaversing the patent minefield (as Stallman puts it). Those who choose to share innovation with the restriction that those who benefit also share their follow-on innovations - even when innovations pertain to other than software disciplines, accelerate the innovation process, and thereby support the development of a sustainably expanding economic infrastructure.
I do agree with the company's second statement: Patents are "most effective and powerful way to ensure that a company protects" its stuff. It just does very little for the rest of society, and for the economy in general.
Can the subject of a frivilous lawsuit sue the USPO for recklessly granting a patent when any sort of effort at prior art research would have shown the notion to be invalid? If they don't have an incentive to NOT grant patents, wouldn't this potentially give them one?
It looks like what they patented is something I've been thinking of for a while.
We have a small prepublishing company, and it really would be ideal to let the authors request their changes right on the web, and then submit them. Then have a system that would send an alarm to my people, who would get on the job immediately, update the info, and then send an email ['Your work is ready'] to the authors.
But that isn't all I want. I want
(1) Secure password encoded, 128-bit at least
(2) Dating and timing of requests, backup of all previous versions
(3) Dating and timing of our new documents
(4) Access to Mac systems
And then what I'd really like:
(5) Online web-native/Postscript-native document manager that can handle templates [like equations], read postscript *FROM OTHER WORD PROCESSORS INCLUDING MS WORD*, reformat it into template-format work, do all the things that Quark XPress can do, allow mass updates with individual checks [so words and formulas must be stored in tree format].
I suppose this could be done with Acrobat files initially, including their form submission.
But the fact is, we don't have it done. Now, I'm not about to spend money to develop something that isn't mine, especially when I don't have a lot of money. But if they got a really good system going, there's an excellent chance that I would buy in, so long as the license was permanent. [I won't be held hostage, but I *will* pay money for the system].
So I really hope they do develop a halfway decent working model.
But if they don't develop it themselves, I'm not going to have a problem doing an artwork search and then developing what I wanted anyhow. Or if they have a hostage-data situation.
I won't pay money to put a noose around my neck voluntarily.
Correct Horse Battery Staple: 72 bits of entropy. Enter "Correct H" into google. When it generates the phrase, that's
Does there exist a section of the open source community dedicated to seeking out obvious and prior-art patents for the purpose of making those ideas public domain (thus protecting us from companies doing the same but not making them public domain)? If not, there should.
"Probably the toughest time in anyone's life is when you have to murder a loved one because they're the devil." -Philips
Is anybody making an archive of all the bullshit patents?
Xerox won the day as far as Infringement is concerned, however the appeal court "agreed with Palm's argument that the lower court failed to find out if Xerox's patented technology was indeed unique." and ordered that portion back to the trial court.
If Xerox looses the validity of the Graffiti patent it will set a much needed precedent and pave the way for future legal strategies in dissputes.
Attack the Patent rather than defend non Infringement.
Help fight continental drift.
(I am not AL, nor am I ANAL)
:p), submission and workflow associated with the content, embeded webserver, etc. These are features which parallel Interwoven's offerings (albeit at a smaller scale).
First off, read the actual patent, not the press release.
The patent does indeed include version control elements, but further defines exactly what their product does. See section 2, for example:
"The system of claim 1, further comprising a plurality of work areas configured to allow different users to create and maintain web content to be displayed on a website, wherein the staging area is adapted to receive web content changes of files modified in the work areas and is configured to check for conflicts in web content received from two or more work areas. "
There are very many products out there that do version control. But, there are very few that provide robust Content Management, which includes version control, but also includes a system to quickly and directly retrieve content for a web site/application and other such ammenities described in the patent. You would never do such a thing with CVS, unless you're insane.
What this does endanger is projects like Zope with it's CMS framework, which does alot of what is described in this patent. Versioning, browsable "file system" (html browsable, not unix mountable
So, having said all this, I don't see why everyone is freaking out. The patent obviously addresses a complex Content Management system, not a simple version control system. I'm sure a simple-minded judge would be able to tell the difference once given the facts.
If you're going to make this assertion, you should say exactly what is "so much more" about this patent. I read Interwoven's press release. They say that the patent contains 13 claims.
I read all 13 claims of the patent (go to the Patent and trademark office and do a "Quick Search" for patent #6505212, and saw an exact description of all the features CVS and Clear Case users have enjoyed for years. Six years ago I built a system using PVCS to manage source code and a 7 platform build system, and three years ago I adapted it to CVS for management of a website managed by 45 writers and programmers. It included a staging area, individual or team work areas, and the ability to search versions by content.
Following the 13 claims are the details of the patent; there is nothing there that cannot be done with CVS and some perl or python scripts. The "virtualization module" is similar to perl I wrote to run the site. The user typed in the URL with the CVS label and they would get the site in their browser as it appeared when labeled. Clear Case did the same thing with a file system view.
Nothing personal against Interwoven; if their product works it's worth the money, but it does not deserve a patent.
My amazing wife - Artist, Author, Philosopher - Laurie M
ClearCase is not a Content Management System. Interwoven is not a Version Control System.
ClearCase and Interwoven do indeed have a number of shared features, but noone in their right mind would *ever* use ClearCase as a CMS backend to a website. Interwoven specializes organizing information, in the form of website content, throughout it's lifecycle, including initial authoring, review stages and (this is the important part) publishing. Not a single Version Control system addresses publishing.
I don't claim to have all the answers, but maybe it's time to sit down, discuss the possibilities, and take action. All average citizens have to be shown is the patent for the "cat exercise system using a laser pointer" to convince them that reform is needed. The next step is a letter campaign to congress.
Perhaps some college kid with plenty of free time on his or her hands would be willing to start something? Maybe the EFF can start something?
I dunno - anyone got any useful ideas?
We Americans already pay for it.
We pay for bad patents when we pay unreasonable prices for goods.
We pay for it in progress going slower than it should due to restrictions.
We pay for it in that we have to often replicate our efforts to avoid patent issues (PNG and OGG Vorbis are good examples).
The cost to the average American may be hidden but it's still there.
Making the entity liable for this type of situation will certainly not solve all the problems with the patent office. What it will do is get press atttention and make a few heads roll. Once that happens, reforming the organization will become easier.
- Serge Wroclawski
The USPO makes very little judgement calls, getting a patent is incredibally easy. Why - because they are part of the executive branch, not the judicial branch. That way, if their is any arguement, both sides can have all their rights observed by a court of law. The question is, will a court hold it up. It does not sound like that patent will stand up.
excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
Here, from the wayback machine, is a note about how I used to maintain web pages using CVS.
l e. edu/www.html
http://web.archive.org/web/19971222105157/ee.ya
The nice thing about the wayback machine is that it gives you a date for that prior art (In this case December 1997, which preceeds the Feb 1998 filing date on the provisional applicatoin.)
I used to work for the PTO back in the day. The head honchos in the PTO (back then) didn't want any tax money. They wanted the same designation that the post office has, a Federal Corporation. Back then (1995) the honchos looked at the books and realized that if they really wanted too, they could be self sufficent in what they do. I would bet that position changed in the glory days of the Dot-Gone era when they got slammed with more patents then they had ever seen before, but the idea was real and they were activly moving in that direction.
*** I suffer from a colorful array of psychological problems