Have Your Bacon and Drive It Too

An anonymous reader writes "Love ham, bacon and/or sausage? Now you can share that joy with your car. Smithfield is going to turn the waste from 500,000 hogs/year into biodiesel. For those of you who don't know about biodiesel check out this site on how to make your own."

Comments

Biodiesel info

[j-turkey]

For other really intersting biodiesel info, check out The Grease Car

--Turkey

Re:Biodiesel info

[dman123]

Unfortunately, the Grease Car has nothing to do with biodiesel. The Grease Car runs on straight vegetable oil. Vegetable oil is not the same as biodiesel.

Re:Biodiesel info

[j-turkey]

Unfortunately, the Grease Car has nothing to do with biodiesel.

You're half-right. Raw vegetable oil is technically not a biodiesel fuel, but if I'm correct, this is a technical issue because used vegetable oil not registered with the EPA as a fuel.

Now -- having nothing to do with biodiesel is where you're half-right. Biodiesel is typically engineered from vegetable oil, and costs more (VinDiesel is engineered from crap). The two are pretty related.

My subject probably should have been: Info on cool stuff related to (but is not the same as) Biodiesel. Unfortunately, I was anxious to get it out -- I've never had a first post before -- sorry.

In any case, the Grease Car is still damn cool, and relevant to the topic (and they smell like french fries when they run, which adds to the cool factor).

Anyway -- I stand corrected.

--Turkey

Re:Biodiesel info

[dman123]

Your first "FP" is a reasonable excuse to not be as detailed as you could have been. However, it's been said all over the media that veg oil IS biodiesel, and that is what gets me going. It's hard to be in the business of biodiesel (yes, I really am) and have to deal with KDUH or WDOH putting out reports on biodiesel that are in fact people who put straight veg oil in unmodified engines. At Mr. Grease Car modifies the engine and knows that it is not actually biodiesel.

FWIW, Veg oil will never be successfully registered with the EPA as an auto fuel. Seriously.

two man enter, one man leaves!

[buback]

Strangely reminiscent of Mad Max, don't you think.

Re:two man enter, one man leaves!

[Poeir]

Or Homer's "Alcohol-powered Car" fantasy...

"One for me, one for you, one for me, one for you..."

Re:two man enter, one man leaves!

[A55M0NKEY]

Methane cometh from pig shit.

Mmmm... Bacon

[bellings]

It may say "an anonymous reader writes... Bacon!"

But, we all know that the story was really submitted by Cowboy Neal.

Now, if I could only get myself a bacon-powered Segway, I'd be able to eliminate all the walking I have to do from the bacon-cooling-fridge to the baking-cooking-stove to the bacon-eating-table. I'd be the Bacon Man, baybee.

Free Beer

[Anonymous Coward]

Beer contains ethanol, a cheap clean source of energy with a very high calorie/ml ratio. Given free beer, you can solve the world's energy problems.

Re:Free Beer

[i chose quality]

and if it doesn't work out... who cares! *hick* ;-)

But then...

[ptaff]

So, Americans have a known problem with obesity.

Do you think it'll help to use gas made from bacon, sausages and ham?

Imagine your morning traffic jam, with that 'breakfast is ready' smell. You look to your right, you see a man drooling behind his wheel. You look in your mirror, you see men trying to suck your car exhaust.

Whew!

Re:But then...

[JDWTopGuy]

Americans (and others) have been making gas from all kinds of foods for years. In fact I made some gas from my lunch today. Unfortunately I was unable to capture it for use as fuel.

Mmmmmm

[Drunken_Jackass]

makin' bacon...into fuel.

Sh*t pipes

[Anonymous Coward]

"The Utah facility is a specially suited location for this because we are able to order the waste in pipes,"

So there are pipes traversing Utah which carry pig... er... waste? From the farms to... where? Landfills?

Re:Sh*t pipes

[cornjchob]

No, to hot dog and Slim Jim factories.

Maybe we could use human fat

[Anonymous Coward]

I wonder if we could start giving free lyposuctions to fat people and using their lard from their asses to power the vehicle pushing around their lard asses.

Re:Maybe we could use human fat

[Anonymous Coward]

Soylent Gas is made from people! It's people, I tell you!

What about...

[bayankaran]

...gas, I am usually gassy, can I make some fuel out of that and use for my truck?

That's nothing

[GuyMannDude]

Smithfield is going to turn the waste from 500,000 hogs/year into biodiesel.

Bah! My car gets forty rods to the hogshead and thats the way I likes it!

Oh wait, wrong hog...

GMD

Re:That's nothing

[Anonymous Coward]

And best of all, it's made from one hundred percent recycled animals!

Biodiesel is a reality

[Exocet]

If you're in the Portland, OR area and are interested in making, distributing and using biodiesel then you're welcome to join the GoBiodiesel Cooperative. You can get more info at the website, GoBiodiesel.org. We're about 6 weeks from having a processor that will be capable of producing up to several hundred gallons of biodiesel per week.

Since we're a cooperative and a new one at that, there are opportunities in all aspects of biodiesel: sales/marketing, engineering/processor design, oil collection, administrative stuff, etc. Whatever floats your boat (or drives your car).

What about...

[Lars T.]

Spam, Spam, Spam, Spam and Spam?

Biodiesel in the land of Oz

[km790816]

I have a good friend that works for the Australian Biodiesel Consultancy. They are doing similiar things.

Biodiesel is great for countries that have no domestic oil sources. It burns as efficiently and more cleanly than the stuff you get out of the ground and it's using food waste we'd have anyway.

Cool stuff!

"double edged sword"?

[Strange Ranger]

It doesn't mention the by-products of burning biodiesel, but I would think more sources of diesel-like fuel is one of the LAST things we need.

Environmental damage and pollution from livestock is a very serious problem and probably the main reason I'm "pescatarian".
But I'm far from convinced that this process of converting the waste into fuel and burning it like diesel isn't just an equal-but-different evil, or worse. A far better option would be to treat industrialized meat as the sister-evil to SUV's. AKA Ridiculous Consumption in the vast majority of cases.

Re:"double edged sword"?

[Exocet]

Not to flame, but you haven't done any homework in this area, have you? Fortunately I (and many others) have.

What we need less of, MUCH less of, is gasoline and gasoline engines.

I can list off more benefits of biodiesel than there is space for this comment. So I'll stick to just the highlights:

(From http://www.epa.gov/otaq/consumer/fuels/altfuels/bi odiesel.pdf)
- Use of 100% biodiesel will reduce CO2 emissions (when compared to regular diesel) by 50 percent
- Use of 100% biodiesel will reduce particulate emissions by 70% when compared to regular diesel).
- Again, use of 100% biodiesel will reduce Total Hydrocarbon (THC on your DEQ test results) emissions by 40% compared to regular diesel.
- 100% reduction in sulfate emissions when using 100% biodiesel!

"Other" benefits:

- Biodiesel is produced, distributed and locally used. Don't want a war in some middle eastern country with people you've never met? A way to avoid such conflicts is to be self-reliant in terms of fuel.
- Biodiesel can be produced from damn near any vegetable oil you can think of. See: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield.html ...Which means that biodiesel can be produced from vegetables grown locally - just about anywhere people live.
- Biodiesel can be produced from waste vegetable oil. This helps to "close the loop", meaning that that WVO doesn't end up in a landfill.
- Biodiesel represents a "closed carbon cycle". Regular diesel and gasoline come from oil, which has been safely buried in the ground for millions of years. When it comes up and we burn it, we're adding CO2. When Biodiesel is burned, since it came from living plants or animals it doesn't represent an increase in CO2 - just a redistribution.
- Use of biodiesel requires zero modifications to a late model diesel vehicle and only minor upgrades of fuel lines and other rubber bits to older diesel vehicles.

I could go on and on, but I won't. Any benefit you can think of for regular gasoline or diesel, biodiesel will trump. And biodiesel is available RIGHT NOW, as opposed to hydrogen-based fuels cells or other good-idea-but-not-yet-practical green technologies.

Re:"double edged sword"?

[Strange Ranger]

No I haven't done my homework, though I usually do, but on the other hand if biodiesel producers and advocates want to sell the idea, then sell the idea, don't make us do homework.

Here's my real reason for replying:
How much energy and resources does it take to do the conversion? Has that been factored in?

You do make good points if the facts are right and stand up in real world usage. The conversion IS probably not as bad as crude oil conversion. Still, if it's an excuse to keep going up the same path with industrialized meat then that in itself is pretty darn harmful.

Re:"double edged sword"?

[Exocet]

Every decision, alternative-to-the-norm or not, requires a bit of "homework" if you're going to make an informed decision. But I digress.

Here's an example of instructions on making biodiesel. As far as I can tell, these instructions are similar to the ones that the GoBiodiesel Cooperative of Portland, OR (of which I'm a member) are going to use (and which several members currently use) to make biodiesel.

http://www.stewardwood.org/resources/DIYbiodiese l. htm

It looks like it's approximately 3.5-4.0 grams of lye per litre of vegetable oil. There's also a quantity of ethanol (or methanol, which is mentioned in the yahoo.com article) but I'm not sure of the amount. I believe it's (super approximate) 1:1 ethanol or methanol to vegetable oil (or waste vegetable oil).

Other than the lye, vegetable oil and ethanol or methanol, there is a few cents of electricity used to power a small stirring motor. There's also a small bit of electricity (or some sort of natural gas) used to heat up the vegetable oil. To make a 25 gallon batch, for example, there's about 12.5 gallons of oil that's been heated from room temp to 120F.

How the electricity is generated could be a (small) point of contention, I suppose. For the above 25 gallon batch example, though, there's maybe 25-50 cents of electricity consumed.

I can't tell you how lye is produced/obtained. It can't be too difficult - a (20lb?) bag is about $50 or so. I'm going off've memory here, but the gist is that a big ass bag of lye doesn't cost much. Name-brand laundry detergent, by weight, probably costs more.

And keep in mind that the meat factor is a VOLUNTARY one! The company in this article is using waste (poop) to produce methanol. You can always use ethanol instead, or methanol produced in different ways. Methanol is the preferred "other half" of the biodiesel process, but it's more expensive so it isn't used as much.

Re:"double edged sword"?

[Eccles]

The fundamental problem, though, with biodiesel is that we simply can't produce enough to replace oil at our current consumption rates. While waste conversion is a pure win, going beyond that would require vast amounts of new acreage under cultivation.

Re:"double edged sword"?

[Ashurbanipal]

How much energy and resources does it take to do the conversion? Has that been factored in?

Less energy than it takes to effectively manage the waste through any other means. Seriously, the pig farmers aren't doing this because they are dancing california flower-child wannabees. They are doing it because they have a serious waste disposal problem, that is costing them titanic amounts of money, and this is a way to sell the nastiest, most volatile fraction of their waste products.

You can rant about industrialized meat all you want, but as long as an ever-increasing number of humans want to eat meat, somebody will step up to produce that meat as cheaply as possible. That's how the capitalist system works, when it does work. Managing the waste of that industry with less harmful pollution and less discarded resources is an admirable thing, as is helping to make the US more energy-efficient.

Re:"double edged sword"?

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem is it's not really cheap. I am talking about Opportunity Cost and so called "incidentals".

"An important dimension is the larger question of financial incentives such as taxes and real cost charges. Durning & O'Toole estimated that given the real value of tropical forest wood, the true cost of a hamburger made from cattle raised on cleared rainforest land is $200.00."

Not all land is rainforest, but we still haven't touched the non-wood value of land, cost of pollution (not clean up but the effects of the un-cleaned), health costs of a high fat diet, etc. etc. etc.

$200 dollars per hamburger is low.

Re:"double edged sword"?

[Exocet]

You, of all people, should be a proponent of said new acreage cultivation. Why?

I'll pull a random number out of my ass. Say we need to cultivate 50 million acres above and beyond what is currently cultivated for *crop* production. Where does all that land come from?

A quick, easy and obvious answer is: take the vast tracts of land used by to-be-consumed-for-food animals and convert it in to crop-production land.

Benefits? The nation begins to shift its thinking from feeding an anmial for five years and then killing it and eating it (highly inefficient) to growing crops whose byproduct is oil, which could be used for biodiesel production. Since the veggies already have value because of their oil-production properties, the left-overs could end up getting used elsewhere at a deep discount.

I'll admit, if everyone converted over to biodiesel tomorrow we'd be hard-pressed to supply fuel. But everyone converting over tomorrow is impossible. Instead, if biodiesel is cheap and readily available (on top of the other numerous benefits) then I suspect it will be a slow, multi-decade transistion, as people purchase new (or used) diesel vehicles.

Re:"double edged sword"?

[Eccles]

You, of all people, should be a proponent of said new acreage cultivation.

Why me of all people? I'm not a vegetarian, animals are just too danged tasty. Although I'd definitely love to see "lab"-grown meat replacing animals as the source, and that should significantly improve the input/output calorie ratio of meat production.

I'll pull a random number out of my ass.

Pull it out of your hat -- it's much more sanitary that way.

But anyway, let's get some real numbers. Gasoline has approximately 31,000 calories/gallon, according to howstuffworks.com. Let's say people eat approximately 2500 calories per day. Now for fuzzier numbers: how many gallons/person/day. Warranties estimate 12,000 miles/year, say one (fully-used) car for every two people, each driven on average 32 miles/day, if 25 mpg we get 1.3 gallons/per car. Multiplied by calories yields ~40,000 calories/car/day. .5 cars/person nets 20,000 calories/person consumed by cars. If animal sources net us about half our daily calories, and meat production is 10% efficient, then we normally use 12,500 + 1250 vegetable calories/day. Since we'll still need that base 2500, that gives us ~11,250 more veg calories/person/day production capacity if we switched to entirely vegetarian diet. So it's ballpark, but still on the low side.

Read Carefully!

[dman123]

The hog waste is being turned into methanol, not biodiesel. The methanol, among other things, is then added in the traditional manner to vegetable or animal fat to make biodiesel.

The headline is misleading and the equivalent of saying that hydrogen and oxygen can be made into beer, neglecting to mention that they are first combined to make water, then used in the traditional manner to make beer.

Articles like this (the original, not /.) make me shake my head in disgust. The production of the methanol from the hog waste has to stand on its own against the more efficient production of methanol from natural gas sources. I doubt it can.

Disclaimer: I have a vested interest in biodiesel and this article raises my blood pressure. Go to www.biodiesel.org to learn about what biodiesel is or is not.

2005 car problems

[Hubert_Shrump]

Me: Well, I don't know, it just started squealing like a pig.

Mechanic: Put it up on the ramps.

(Drives car up on ramps)

Mechanic: Here's your problem. Loose timing belt.

Re:2005 car problems

[User 956]

Here's your problem. Loose timing belt.

More likely, a loose fan belt, or a loose drive belt. If the timing belt were loose, the car wouldn't make any noise at all, because it wouldn't be able to run.

That puts a new spin on the phrase:

[questionlp]

Road hog!

What will we see next, a Harley that can use biodiesel?

Pigs

[Johnso]

This would be the perfect fuel for cop cars...

Wow, so many missed jokes.

[immanis]

Let's start with the observation above about how there is a known problem of obesity in this country.

What better way to SOLVE this problem than with biodiesel? All we need to make it sing is a home liposuction kit! Then we can use our own fat to drive our cars back to the grocery, to buy more food with all the money we are saving on gas. And we get to look thin no matter how much we eat! It's WIN WIN WIN! (Remind anyone of Fight Club?)

And how could someone pass up the Alcohol Fueled Car notation above?

"Alcohol fueled car, eh? . o O (One for you, one for me! One for you, one for me!) *homerdrool*"

yes it is

[zogger]

biodiesel is just so derived from vegetable products OR animal fats.

From the very top of link of a google search using searchword biodiesel:

http://www.biodiesel.org/ (catchy url, yes?)

What is biodiesel?
Biodiesel is the name of a clean burning alternative fuel, produced from domestic, renewable resources. Biodiesel contains no petroleum, but it can be blended at any level with petroleum diesel to create a biodiesel blend. It can be used in compression-ignition (diesel) engines with little or no modifications. Biodiesel is simple to use, biodegradable, nontoxic, and essentially free of sulfur and aromatics.

How is biodiesel made?
Biodiesel is made through a chemical process called transesterification whereby the glycerin is separated from the fat or vegetable oil. The process leaves behind two products -- methyl esters (the chemical name for biodiesel) and glycerin (a valuable byproduct usually sold to be used in soaps and other products).

Is Biodiesel the same thing as raw vegetable oil?
No! Fuel-grade biodiesel must be produced to strict industry specifications (ASTM D6751) in order to insure proper performance. Biodiesel is the only alternative fuel to have fully completed the health effects testing requirements of the 1990 Clean Air Act Amendments. Biodiesel that meets ASTM D6751 and is legally registered with the Environmental Protection Agency is a legal motor fuel for sale and distribution. Raw vegetable oil cannot meet biodiesel fuel specifications, it is not registered with the EPA, and it is not a legal motor fuel.

For entities seeking to adopt a definition of biodiesel for purposes such as federal or state statute, state or national divisions of weights and measures, or for any other purpose, the official definition consistent with other federal and state laws and Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM) guidelines is as follows:

OFFICIAL DEFINITION

Biodiesel is defined as mono-alkyl esters of long chain fatty acids derived from vegetable oils or animal fats which conform to ASTM D6751 specifications for use in diesel engines. Biodiesel refers to the pure fuel before blending with diesel fuel. Biodiesel blends are denoted as, "BXX" with "XX" representing the percentage of biodiesel contained in the blend (ie: B20 is 20% biodiesel, 80% petroleum diesel).

and so on, and etc....

I don't know how to code, but alternate energy is a hobby of mine.

Re:yes it is

[dman123]

yes it is

No, it is not (the same as biodiesel)!

Quoting your own source...
"Is Biodiesel the same thing as raw vegetable oil?
No!"

See? It isn't.

Can't be any clearer than that. As a member of the National Biodiesel Board @ www.biodiesel.org, your catchy URL, I know that biodiesel comes from animal or veg fats. But it is not the same as biodiesel. Next, you'll be telling me that fatty acid is the same as vegetable oil. Subtract a glycerin backbone and they are, right?

And if your argument was that the Grease Car has to do with biodiesel because it burns the precursor to biodiesel, well than I submit that a car burning LPG is the same a car burning any other fossil fuel. Why let a few chemical reactions complicate the issue? ;-)

I know you meant well, but please don't call vegetable or animal fat "biodiesel."

Re:yes it is

[zogger]

biodiesel is not biodiesel, except when it is, or isn't, but it is , no it ain't, but it really is biodiesel, but see, there's biodiesel, then BIODIESEL.

I have no idea what you are talking about anymore. Your web site says two different things, and picking one or the other "proves" your point. biodiesel is a product that can be made from animal or vegetable fats. how you get there is different. Now you are telling me biodiesel is biodiesel except for when it isn't biodiesel.

OK, so much clearer now.

think I'll write my rep tell him to put his loot for any fed money in alternate energy into wind, PV and ethanol instead, just based on this.

good luck in your projects, hope your blood doesn't boil all the time. Maybe mixing biodiesel up with biodiesel does it, fumes or something...

point is moot, once dino doody oil hits 80$ a barrel there ain't gonna be any "spare" food quality oil grown in any quantities, animal or vegetable. Between farming costs and the resultant increase in natgas prices driving up fertiliser, well.. we'll see. Really,good luck, wish you well, I approve of all alternate energy products, a lot better than just complaining about things like most people do.

funny story, long time ago in the 70's, buncha hippy friends of mine going over to protest at seabrook nuke plant, asked me if I wanted to go. I declined. While they were over protesting I built a 4' x 8' solar passive thermosiphon air heater. it worked quite well. That's how I protest.

Forget Biodesil

[xagon7]

We should use this pork for Bio-counter-terrorism!

Re:Forget Biodesil

[JDWTopGuy]

Yeah, why not drop pigs on islamic terrorist camps? They can't stand pigs. I would love to see that, a pig dropping from normal bombing height, splitting open and splattering a bunch of terrorists.... Imagine the "squeals" of terror(ists)! Ahahahaha!

Of course the animal rights people wouldn't like that.

I'm a member of PETA: People Eating Tasty Animals.

Been done.

[Ashurbanipal]

See here, boy.

Right after I blow all my mod points, too

[Anonymous Coward]

That one should be "+1, Funny".

Yeah, exactly

[Spamalamadingdong]

So there are pipes traversing Utah ...

If across the road is "traversing Utah", I suppose so.

which carry pig... er... waste? From the farms to... where? Landfills?

To anaerobic digesters, where methanogenic bacteria convert some of the organic matter in the pig squat into gases. I understand that this gas is roughly half methane and half CO2. After that, the liquid seems to make decent fertilizer. (This technology has been written up in popular publications for at least 30 years now; check back issues of The Mother Earth News.)

Perhaps this should be required of all factory-sized animal feeding operations; open waste lagoons rupture, and the consequences are nasty whether the crap is coming from pigs, steers or chickens

You missed something

[Spamalamadingdong]

- Biodiesel can be produced from waste vegetable oil. This helps to "close the loop", meaning that that WVO doesn't end up in a landfill.

Biodiesel can also be produced from WAF (Waste Animal Fat). Say what you will about the desirability of mass-feeding and slaughter operations; using waste fat for fuel is better than putting it in landfills.

Yes. You sure should have.

[Spamalamadingdong]

Disclaimer: I have a vested interest in biodiesel and this article raises my blood pressure. Go to www.biodiesel.org to learn about what biodiesel is or is not.

If anything, fatty-acid methyl esters produced from biogenic methanol (methanol made by oxidation of biogenic methane) is more "biodiesel" than esters made using methanol produced from fossil methane.

There are no new jokes

[Spamalamadingdong]

Check out the signature block in this post.

Okay... BACON and FUEL... I see the connection

[The_Laughing_God]

In the Neolithic era, one primary fuel was JAMES WOOD
Whose favorite Blues vocalist was NAT 'KING' COLE (which, along with charcoal, fueled the iron age)
Who had an odd thing for the Popeye's girlfriend Olive Oyl (burned by Greeks and Romans in lamps)
Who was also the favorite cartoon babe of OIL CAN BOYD (Hero of the petroleum age)
Who, in a post-game interview, jumped HOWIE CARR (transportation tht began a social revolution)
Who co-starred in a Gillete Mach III commercial with VIN DIESEL (who had actually been around forever, but is now regaining popularity)
Who co-starred in "Internal Combustion" with ... KEVIN BACON

Or am I playing the game all wrong?

All the best swords are double edged

[Ashurbanipal]

$200 per hamburger is a vegan fantasy derived from bogus mathematics and wishful thinking.

Calculating the cost of hamburger on the price of non-existent wood is ludicrous. The land has been cleared, there is no wood there to harvest. The cattle are there, they are available to market.

The figures you cite could be valid in a single specialized context - that is, when a decision must be made whether or not to clear-cut a rainforest that is accessible to sustainable logging practioners. In that context, that's great - I don't want anybody to cut down rainforests, and we certainly can create grazing land without cutting forest (especially if we stop farming European cattle in inappropriate environments like the American west, and switch to locally adapted species like bison. Mmmm, bison-burgers).

To relate this back to the original subject, the hog farmers already exist, and they aren't going to go away just because you don't like them. The US economy is going to ensure that they stay around for the forseeable future - US shoppers like their pork chops and bacon, and they like them cheap.

There is no downside to recovering some of our pork production waste, and there is a considerable social benefit to making this recovery profitable - not just because of the obvious boon to biodiesel production (and corresponding decreases in air pollution and foreign warmongering that might ensue) but because the hog farmers that can sell their waste products will be able to sell pork cheaper, and thus the free market will push all hog farmers to manage their waste streams better.

Your objections seem like pure contrarianism. You cast aspersions on a good thing because it's not the thing you consider the best possible - even though your best possible thing is not achievable.

Re:All the best swords are double edged

[Anonymous Coward]

Um yeah.

There will always be people on Death Row. There is no downside to turning them into Soylent Green. Whatever.

Back to the discussion, Forget the rainforests. Really, forget them and all lumber costs anywhere.

Now answer this please:
How expensive would meat be if it were taxed according to how much it costs the public(government) in health care costs, pollution regulation and control, loss of taxes from devalued land, ever increasing fresh water costs due to water tables devastated by livestock, heck, even revenue from frickin fishing licenses goes down because there are fewer places to fish and they are harder to maintain. The list goes on and on and the silly items add up quickly. So what do you think is the true cost of a pork chop?

And it's an ongoing cost, not some single, "how much is that lumber worth?" cost. Nobody is that short sighted unless they choose to be. Remember, it takes almost 10 times as much land to generate a unit of meat food as it does a unit of plant food. You have to grow plants first to feed the animals, etc. The world's population is always growing and meat production will continue to grow to meet demand. The huge demand for cheap meat is a very serious problem with many faces. And hey a land covered in swine farms and biodiesel plants and pumping stations sounds dreadful to me. I'm not contrarian. I simply desire to address the problem and not the symptoms. Addressing only symptoms almost always prolongs and exacerbates a problem. Instead, appropriately tax meat for what it actually costs the public. A smallish decrease in income tax would even become possible then. Meat is expensive whether it says so on the price tag or not. Make the price tag reflect the true cost and the demand will plummet. Then I'll be all for turning the small resultant waste into a few gallons of Biodiesel, if by then fuel cells and other technologies have not proven themselves far cleaner and more efficient.

Until then, I am against anything marketed as a guilt-free excuse to pig out on meat. Not even World Peace is worth continuing the unsustainable runaway train we've put ourselves on. At least not until there are trees on Mars. Ask any financially impartial ecologist and he'll tell you the same thing. "Mysterious new technologies will save us!" ?? Maybe, but only if those technologies can turn plants into meat an order of magnitude more efficiently than animals can, and reestablish biodiversity in the world's plant crops. Otherwise, something else has to change.

Re:All the best swords are double edged

[Ashurbanipal]

OK, I see that you've got principles behind your statements, and that you are not simply being contrarian. I retract any accusations I might have made to that effect, with apologies.

But I still think your argument in invalid; all the indirect costs you keep bringing up are the costs of overpopulation, not the costs of meat production.

Our ideas of what a healthy population of humans would be are probably quite different; as a meat-eater, I would prefer to be near the top of the food chain. Top predators in a balanced ecosystem should have very low population density, like tigers or bears.

I share your concerns over the unsustainable nature of the western world's agriculture. But, if we're going to deal with true root causes, I would take them back to burgeoning population, the culture of excessive consumption, and an economic system that insists only unlimited, continuous growth can be healthy.

VO

[splerdu]

Biodiesel for the lazy:

70% Vegetable Oil + 30% Kerosene

Concentrations may vary, but the BBC has reported this during their last season of top gear. They also have a writeup on their site.

Perhaps the biggest advantage is that in most countries biodiesel is relatively untaxed, or taxed much less than regular fuel. I think it's a great way to maximize use of your old cooking oil.

Will this necessitate Vegetarian Gas Stations?

[Anonymous Coward]

I know folks who may not want to drive if animal fat is involved!

Re:Yes. You sure should have.

[dman123]

What you say is exactly right. However, that's not the point. The point is that the methanol is added to the fat to make a methyl ester. One could hardly consider the methanol to be the main component of the reaction. Therefore, the hog waste is not the source of biodiesel.

Now the rendered hog fat may be another story...

Then please explain this

[Spamalamadingdong]

One could hardly consider the methanol to be the main component of the reaction. Therefore, the hog waste is not the source of biodiesel.

(emphasis added) Okay. But since the fatty acids being esterified also have a non-fossil (and presumably renewable) origin, what's your argument? I think 100% bio-derived biodiesel is an advance (so long as it isn't ridiculously expensive).

I also think that the methanol would do just fine in vehicles, but I'll bet that the economics just aren't there (and of course the article doesn't even hint at the cost).

...you see men trying to suck your car exhaust

[ralfg33k]

...and you realize that you've become the latest victim of random lard felching.

Muslims will hate this

[Anonymous Coward]

"I told you Abdull, America is the Great Satan. You breathe pork into your lungs by just walking down the street!"

Kewl Site I made some and...

[A55M0NKEY]

I made some of this after viewing the site:

Mixed:

• Red Devil Lye
• Ethyl ( Denatured - it said you could substitute ethyl for methyl alcohol )
• Vegetable oil ( soybean oil )

I mixed the lye and alcohol shaking it up till it felt nice and warm.

Then I poured the alcohol into the soda bottle with the veggie oil and shook it up.

I waited about four hours for it to seperate

There were three layers:

• A white foamy layer
• A yellow cloudy oily layer
• A white cloudy alcohol/lye/glycerine layer

I drained out the middle layer by poking a hole in the soda bottle. The stuff was oily but smelled like alcohol. I put it in a bottle to wash

The top foamy white layer was not water soluable. I had thought it was soap but upon washing melting and tasting plus burning and smelling I am pretty confident that it was wax - a little harder than shoe polish. I tried to make a candle but the wax itself burned without a wick.

I dumpped the glycering + other junk layer.

I added about a tablespoon of white vinegar plus about 300 ml water to my 100 ml of oily 'diesel' and shook it up real good. Leaving it overnight till it re-seperated, the oily stuff was still cloudy and still smelled like alcohol or maybe paint thinner. Maybe esters are supposed to smell that way. It certainly was not a good smell.

I then read about the 'two-step process' that is supposed to yeild purer fuel. According to that guy, removing the glycerine and re-reacting the mixture again causes the reaction to proceed all the way. Thinking that I must still have some unreacted veggie oil which was making my fuel cloudy, I mixed up some more lye+alcohol ( the first batch ate through my soda bottle overnight! ) and poured it into my test tube.

The stuff briefly turned clear yellow and you'll never guess what happened next - The whole thing turned to WAX! There was only a small amount of liquid left which I could not pour out of my test, er, cigar tube.

I dunno if maybe this could be a replacement for caranuba wax used in shoe polish, but it is definately a bad fuel... I added no water at all and used neat unused soybean oil. My only theory is that I - who does not own a scale and did all measurements by eye used way too much lye.

Does anyone know if having too high a PH could cause the fuel to be converted to wax? Any other ideas to explain the wax formation?

Saturated vs Unsaturated Fats

[A55M0NKEY]

According to what I've read using lard-like saturated fats results in a biodiesel that freezes in the cold. But using unsaturated fats makes a biodiesel that is prone to polymerization along the kinks which gumms up yer fuel system. Does anyone know of a way of first hydrogenating vegetable oil, then cracking it into shorter chains so that it is both non polymerizing and short enough to remain liquid at low temperature?