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Dutch Wiretaps: Too Many To Bother Counting

Posted by timothy on from the just-trust-on-this-one-and-these-ones-too dept.

Brenno de Winter writes "While the U.S. wiretapped 1,350 phonelines, the Netherlands managed to wiretap approx. 10,000 phonelines in 1999. With the new Telecom Act the Dutch government could wiretap even easier and are doing it so much they cannot count it anymore. Bits of Freedom (BOF) requested statistics under the Dutch Freedom of Information Act and were denied it since it was to hard to gather the data. Even though telecom and internet operators regularly send bills for operational wiretapping costs, the ministry of Justice claims it doesn't keep account of the numbers. What scares you more a government that wiretaps or a government that wiretaps and doesn't know what it is wiretapping?"

12 of 57 comments (clear)

  1. It's well-known by orkysoft · · Score: 2, Funny

    Apparently, the police wiretaps not only criminals, but also the people they phone or get phoned by, and the people those contacts phone or get phoned by.

    I think the recursion stops there, but I'm not sure.

    --

    I suffer from attention surplus disorder.
    1. Re:It's well-known by stubear · · Score: 2, Funny

      Only three degrees of seperation? What, the Dutch don't care about Kevin Bacon?

    2. Re:It's well-known by MillionthMonkey · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And then there's the U.S., a basically free country, which has too many laws to count, and plenty of laws which contradict other laws, and many times more population.... It's the country most lived in and hated by vocal Slashdotters --

      You're painting with a broad brush. I've never seen any "vocal Slashdotters" saying anything about "hating" their country.

      most of the non-vocal probably disagree, with the vocal ones, but who can prove that, either way.

      In other words, unless someone specifically says otherwise, their silence should be taken as agreement with you and your own opinions.

      (I am not the typical vocal Slashdotter, when it comes to my views of the U.S. Perhaps, warts and all, I love my country more than most.)

      The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. Mere flag waving doesn't make you a patriot.

    3. Re:It's well-known by Badger · · Score: 2, Interesting
      It's the country most lived in and hated by vocal Slashdotters -- most of the non-vocal probably disagree, with the vocal ones, but who can prove that, either way. (I am not the typical vocal Slashdotter, when it comes to my views of the U.S. Perhaps, warts and all, I love my country more than most.)
      It's a popularity thing. It's cool to bash the US and uncool to mention that other "civilized" countries might actually have problems of their own.

      Most non-vocal Slashdotters learned long ago that fighting "the cool thing" was swimming upstream. It's much easier to laugh and remember that if you aren't a liberal at 20, you have no heart, and if you aren't a convervative at 40, you have no brain.

    4. Re:It's well-known by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      People always have these weird ideas about the Netherlands. Whatever made you think that we have 'virtually no laws'? We have countless laws, rules, and regulations, that control and regulate *everything* in life from the color of my front door to the height of my living room, from the locations where I'm allowed to park my bike to the time at which I can go to work.

      And sure, I can ignore most of that and get away with it, but let's face it, this is a country where even the lowliest wretch can cause you misery simply because you broke some stupid, irrelevant "rule" that somehow became "law". And this is on all levels of society: I distinctly remember the asshole back at university who only sold required study materials during those hours you were supposed to be in class. If you came 3 seconds late, he would smile, say "rules are rules" (ie. not even a "sorry"), and ignore you, even if your life depended on it.

      As for the often-heard allegation that this country is awash in drugs, that's just silly. Just because there is a large criminal circuit that is apparently allowed to go about its business unchecked, does not mean that every dutch citizen is a drug user. The percentage of the population using drugs is lower than in most other countries.

      Not everyone here appreciates those 'liberal' and 'tolerant' policies. It has let us to a society where nobody gives a shit about anything anymore. The streets are littered with trash, buildings are covered with graffiti, and noone gives a damn. The community has more or less fallen apart, and we are now a collection of uninterested individuals.

      Comparing with the United States (which I've visited), I find the US overbearingly nationalistic (what is it with those flags every 20 meters?), but people *do* care about things, which is good, and I liked the fact that its cities and countryside were so clean. Reflect on that for a moment...

      In a recent poll, over half of the people in the Netherlands were *not* proud of their country. I'm one of those people not proud of it (anymore). I guess it stopped feeling like "my country" a long time ago. Now it is a country populated by disinterested dorks who know every letter of the law but none of its spirit; people who'd spit on you if you lay bleeding on the pavement.

  2. Re:I Don believe this! by orkysoft · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Their incompetence means a reduced efficiency, which they have to make up for with many more wiretaps. Or something like that.

    --

    I suffer from attention surplus disorder.
  3. Not Good.... by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Given that the US also has a population more than 15 times that of the Netherlands that means somebody living there is more than 100 times more likely to be wiretapped than in the US.

    That seems to be pretty incongruous for a country that prides itself on the personal freedoms of its citizens.

  4. Re:I Don believe this! by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I've seen reports in a variety of places that wiretaps are far more prevalent in Europe than the US.

    I also remember a flap last year caused by the Dutch goverment requiring all ISPs to install wiretaps.

    The following is an article discussing some of the Dutch wiretaps issues:

    http://www.mail-archive.com/cryptography@wasabis ys tems.com/msg02595.html

    If I were a European citizen I would be asking some question of my government.

  5. Re:Where are all the comments? by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 3, Funny

    Canadian equivalant for the Netherlands, anyway?

    Finland, eh?

  6. Re:I Don believe this! by maelstrom · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Sorry, it is EU policy to encourage its citizens to ask hard questions of the American government and to question the freedom of Americans every chance they get. The theory goes if they are too busy out protesting how much of a cowboy Bush is being, they won't have time to realize how much their own rights are being systematically stripped away by the European governments and the European Union.

    --
    The more you know, the less you understand.
  7. it could be worse! by fogpilot · · Score: 2, Interesting

    some years ago the dutch telecomcompany and a technical university recorded ALL phonecalls from fixed (identifiable) lines during a six month period, to "research voice-printing and speech/pattern recognition". wonder what they are doing with that big fat and very handy database!

  8. Re:The U.S.A. is the converse of the Netherlands.. by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The Dutch people would be horrified at the prospect of that degree of home invasion by the authorities

    Then please explain how we have the Dutch authorities working hand-in-hand with the DEA conducting raids complete with 17 search warrants.

    http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/pubs/pressrel/pr112200. ht m

    I bet the real story is just like the wiretaps - Dutch citizens are brainwashed that their country is free when in fact the rate of government intrusion into their lives is much higher than they realize.

    The fact that the wiretap rate in the Netherlands is 100 times higher than the US per capita really should be a warning that you may need to rethink your assumptions.