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Australian Federal Police Raid Major ISPs

Posted by timothy on from the overzealous-or-regular-zealous dept.

pflodo writes "The Australian (newspaper) has an article about Telstra the major Australian ISP and other 'declined to name' ISPs that have been raided by Australian Federal Police to 'seek the identity of particular subscribers' in relation to their activity and files stored on the ISP's servers. I imagine they will eventually raid some domestic homes and make a scapegoat of some unfortunate teenagers."

36 of 321 comments (clear)

  1. "Valuable" Music by kevinatilusa · · Score: 5, Funny

    "According to sources, the wholesale value of the allegedly pirated music may be as high as $60 million"

    Then again, the music could be mostly Backstreet Boys, Brittney Spears, and N'Sync, in which case the value of the music is closer to $60.

    1. Re:"Valuable" Music by gid13 · · Score: 5, Funny

      as in "i'd pay $60 for someone to murder these singers because i'd rather bathe in acid and razor blades than hear them sing another note"?

    2. Re:"Valuable" Music by TopShelf · · Score: 5, Funny

      I love it when they estimate the value of something like this. I remember from my college days when there would be a big pot bust, and the cops would say "x pounds of pot were seized, with a street value of $y," and after a quick calculation, we'd see that the cops are obviously overpaying...

      --
      Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
    3. Re:"Valuable" Music by ratamacue · · Score: 5, Insightful

      What's really ironic about drug raids is that the "street value" they quote is a function of prohibition, not market economics. Government sets the price of illegal drugs, not drug dealers! The higher the level of prohibition, the higher the price of black market items. The more tax money they throw at the "problem", the more money the drug dealers can make. And the more money the drug dealers make, the better their chances of avoiding the law. It's a win-win situation for government, which profits not only in revenue but power over the people, and it's a win-win situation for drug dealers who are clever enough to avoid the law. The only losers here are the tax payers, who pay not only in tax dollars but liberty (including but not limited to ownership of your own body) and security (which decreases proportional to the violent crime stimulated by the black market).

      Am I concluding that prohibition is designed specifically to benefit government at the expense of the people? You bet I am.

  2. Can somebody explain Australian law for me? by Rev.LoveJoy · · Score: 4, Interesting
    I admit my ignorance here, but why would the police actually "raid" the ISPs in question rather than just subpeona the information they require through the court system?

    From the tone of this article it strikes me that the police suspect the ISPs of criminal complicity in regards to their subscriber's alleged actions.

    Is this how it normally works down under?

    Cheers,
    -- RLJ

    1. Re:Can somebody explain Australian law for me? by Wild+Wizard · · Score: 5, Informative

      they have gone through the court system the raid is when they turn up with the nice little court documents that says they can look at whatever they want

      big corporates get the same treatment that your local drug dealer gets its called equality i know thats a hard concept for some to grasp

    2. Re:Can somebody explain Australian law for me? by SQL+Error · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It can happen that way.

      I've actually seen this first hand (under slightly diferent circumstances). They don't charge in with guns drawn, but they do appear without notice, in considerable numbers, bearing appropriate warrants and court orders, and secure anything that they might consider evidence. Which may be your mail server.

      The idea is to preserve the evidence, but the way they go about it is misguided and unnecessary more often than not.

    3. Re:Can somebody explain Australian law for me? by Goldberg's+Pants · · Score: 5, Informative

      Wouldn't be the first time the AFP have overreacted.

      Just got done reading this. When it comes to computer "crime" they do seem to have the approach of trying to swat an ant with a sledgehammer.

      They're also a bunch of racist bastards if the book is to be believed.

    4. Re:Can somebody explain Australian law for me? by Snaller · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I may be a little bit under read when it comes to the law, but here in australia I was under the impression that ignorance is no excuse. In fact I was under the impression that this was the attitude of courts world wide, can't image a court going "ahhh well you didn't know murder was a crime. Off you go then, and don't do it again.".

      Except there are differences(and not everything is murder). The postoffice is generally not considered to be guilty if someone sends a bomb (or anthrax) via the mail - so here Ignorance IS not only an excuse, but a just defense. Same with the ISP, depending on what has happened, they probably had know way of knowing what was going on. Of course it they had movies for download on their main page that'd be something else :0)

      --
      If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
    5. Re:Can somebody explain Australian law for me? by budgenator · · Score: 4, Funny

      Gentleman, unfortunatly our Halon Fire suppression system activated, and has locked down the area you are in, this necessitates that all 15 of you share the 5 scott's escape air pack providing 5 minutes of escape air until the fire department arives in about 10 minutes, have a nice day....

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
  3. wow by rigelstar · · Score: 4, Funny

    Sounds so Orwellian for an American groupie country. Whats going on?

  4. big problem here... by TWX_the_Linux_Zealot · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Why would someone committing computer-related illegal activities store anything on their ISP's servers? That's just begging for the systems administrator to find it themselves, and report you for something (assuming it violates their ethics code).

    One of the strongest truths in anything that isn't necessarily legal, or could be interpretted as not legal, is that you don't leave any evidence that others can control. If you're really smart, you leave no evidence at all, period, but if you do leave something, make sure that it is in your control, and your control alone.

    The other thing that I'm shuddering about is the possible downtime effects that this has on everyone else who uses the equipment for fully legitimate purposes. Suddenly, the possibility of server outages, network outages, and other miscellaneous service problems ensue, especially if a federal entity decides that equipment itself is to be confinscated as evidence, and they don't take care to properly handle what mess they leave behind.

    --

    IBM had PL/1, with syntax worse than JOSS,
    And everywhere the language went, it was a total loss...
    1. Re:big problem here... by sm.arson · · Score: 5, Insightful
      One of the strongest truths in anything that isn't necessarily legal, or could be interpretted as not legal, is that you don't leave any evidence that others can control. If you're really smart, you leave no evidence at all, period, but if you do leave something, make sure that it is in your control, and your control alone.
      That is a good point; clearly, most of these "criminals" are just young kids out there looking to make a "name" for themselves by hosting the most mp3s and warez. They don't take the extra precautions because they don't think they are commiting any real crime.

      The real criminals (IMHO) are the scum that try to sell pirated CD-Rs and DVD-Rs in the backalleys of New York, and I'm 100% in support of corporate and government efforts to crack down on these guys.

      I don't, however, agree with the RIAA's apparent goal of making a multi-million dollar example out of some 16 year old kid. Just direct complaints to the ISP and have them shut down the account after it's been proven to host pirated files. No need to bust down doors and put people behind bars...
      --
      for great justice, this sig has been moved
    2. Re:big problem here... by supabeast! · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "Why would someone committing computer-related illegal activities store anything on their ISP's servers?"

      You assume too much. Some of the sleazier warez groups and many child porn groups share hacked servers. If someone at the ISP was involved in such activities, raiding the criminals first may have lead to destruction of evidence by the bad guy on site. By raiding the ISPs directly, the authorities get the servers, secure the hard disks, and then arrest the bad guys later.

    3. Re:big problem here... by ATMAvatar · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The other thing that I'm shuddering about is the possible downtime effects that this has on everyone else who uses the equipment for fully legitimate purposes. Suddenly, the possibility of server outages, network outages, and other miscellaneous service problems ensue, especially if a federal entity decides that equipment itself is to be confinscated as evidence, and they don't take care to properly handle what mess they leave behind.

      This bothers me as well. There's a good chance that raids like this can do far greater financial damage than the piracy they are trying to combat. How many online businesses will be affected? What happens if valuable subscriber data is lost as a result of the raids?

      It sickens me how the authorities and lawmakers bend over backwards for the recording/movie industry without so much as considering the negative consequences of what they are doing. I suppose this is just another glaring example of how you can buy "justice." It's only a matter of time before stuff like this happens in the US, and I wonder how many times I can look forward to lose 'net access because some tard using my ISP leaves his linkin park (or some other equally worthless band) mp3 collection on his webspace.

      --
      "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
    4. Re:big problem here... by Phroggy · · Score: 4, Funny

      Why would someone committing computer-related illegal activities store anything on their ISP's servers? That's just begging for the systems administrator to find it themselves, and report you for something (assuming it violates their ethics code).

      Every system administrator I've known who has done anything to crack down on users hosting illegal content has first checked to see if the user has any good MP3s or movies they don't have yet, and saved them before taking action against the user.

      --
      $x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
      $x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
    5. Re:big problem here... by TWX_the_Linux_Zealot · · Score: 4, Interesting

      "Let's say I steal a $500 stereo. The government might spend $10,000 investigating my crime and imprisoning me. By your argument, "the authorities and lawmakers" would be better off leaving me alone. "

      first off, that's NOT what he's talking about. If I read his post correctly, he's talking about collateral damage. It'd be more like if there was a criminal in the house next door to yours, and the government bulldozing your house to erect a barrier around the criminal. Damage was done to others in the name of the investigation by the government. This is a problem. We haven't even gotten into what the investigation itself cost...

      " You disgust me. IT'S A CRIME. While you may look at it as a fairly innocent, no harm done crime, it is the law that distributing copyrighted material without the owners permission is illegal. We don't get to choose which laws we obey. Before getting a warrant, police don't think 'I wonder what the negative consequences of this warrant will be?" They think "Someone is breaking the law. I should stop them.'"

      Have you looked at the music industry much? Popular musicians have albums go platinum and the industry, selling CDs for $17.95 each, says that the album isn't profitable and barely pays the musician anything. It's to the point that musicians like Moby are going on to talkshows on NPR and telling people that he'd rather them 'steal' his music and listen to it if they aren't going to pay the RIAA for it, rather than it go unheard. Others have come out and directly asked where the money is that the RIAA has asked Congress for regarding pirate-able media taxes, since the artists themselves haven't seen a dime from it, yet the RIAA said it was for the artists' benefit. The entire system is screwed to a pooch, and if the music industry in general isn't willing to adapt itself to meet new demands or new paradigms, it should die.

      If you want to compenate a musician for their contribution to society, attend a concert of theirs, or send them a check for $20 or something as gratuity. Don't pay the RIAA any more for their stupid practices.

      --

      IBM had PL/1, with syntax worse than JOSS,
      And everywhere the language went, it was a total loss...
  5. Lately... by asparagus · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It seems like the Aussies have taken a page or two from the US's "Big Book O' Terrorism" manual.

    Any .au geeks that have lived in the US and would care to compare/contrast the two in terms of rights, both real and perceived?

    1. Re:Lately... by nathanh · · Score: 4, Funny
      It seems like the Aussies have taken a page or two from the US's "Big Book O' Terrorism" manual.

      No way! All Australians are prepared to combat terrorism. I've got my Government Endorsed Anti-Terrorism Fridge Magnet and I'm completely safe now!

  6. Crikey! by stevezero · · Score: 5, Funny

    Does this mean I have to give up my downloaded copies of the 'Crocodile Hunter'?

    1. Re:Crikey! by G-funk · · Score: 5, Funny

      Does this mean I have to give up my downloaded copies of the 'Crocodile Hunter'?

      No, but good taste might.

      --
      Send lawyers, guns, and money!
  7. Copyrighted Material? by ChibiTaryn · · Score: 5, Interesting

    What I want to know is, what exactly constitutes "copyrighted material" legally here in Australia.

    I have a bunch of SNES ROM's and anime (series, music and movies) that have no licencing in Australia. I also have some PlayStation ISO's, same deal. The anime/game wasn't released in Australia (or in any PAL territory, with some of them), so the only way that I could get it was online.

    If it were possible for me to have acquired this stuff another way, I'd have done it...

    Is that kind of thing considered illegal?

    1. Re:Copyrighted Material? by Mark+(ph'x) · · Score: 4, Interesting

      IANAL but isnt copying media a civil matter, and only distribution is criminal?

      Additionally I really hate these stupid numbers that are thrown around... $60million? Yeah maybe... but if i copy a few gig of mp3 off a friend i am NOT ripping the ARIA off for $200000 bucks. Maybe I will not buy a couple of CD's. Sure the record company loses $60. But seriously... these guys with 200 gig of mp3 are hardly likely to have gone and bought it all if they couldntve downloaded it :P

      What college student can afford a few million dollars in music?

      --
      those who control the past, control the future. those who control the present, control the past.
    2. Re:Copyrighted Material? by mr_tenor · · Score: 5, Informative

      copyright.org.au

      http://www.copyright.org.au/PDF/InfoSheets/G070. pd f

      I was shocked to find out that ripping your "own" cds isn't permitted. Maybe there are some other wierd rules.

    3. Re:Copyrighted Material? by julesdoak · · Score: 5, Informative

      It's all illegal unfortunately. It's protected overseas so it's protected here.
      You can't legally get it. Morally, it's up to you. You aren't likely to get sued in Australia if no one has a local license for it, so you might be safe.
      2 things to remember about our sunburnt country - you have no privacy and there is no such thing as fair use here.

      Here is some more info on Australian Copyright
      Reciprocal agreements http://www.copyright.com.au/copying_overseas.htm
      Useful sites
      http://www.copyright.org.au
      http://www.copyright.com.au
      http://www.ipaustralia.gov.au
      AGD Copyright Law Branch
      AGD Copyright Law Review Committee

  8. ISP premium privacy services... by megazoid81 · · Score: 4, Interesting
    If the legal framework allows it, there should be ISPs who offer separately secured hardware and better assurances of privacy protection and non-disclosure to paranoid subscribers who are willing to pay a premium for this purpose. I, for one, would gladly pay up for such assurances. Any other takers?

    Presumably, there could be some kind of ISP credit rating to add accountability and prevent consumers from rapidly switching ISPs to circumvent scrutiny. Privacy premium Internet access could be granted based on records of responsible online citizenship and satisfaction on the ISPs part that the subscriber wouldn't do anything illegal and get them into trouble.

    Would it be possible to convince ISPs to implement such an 'Iron Curtain' feature or would it qualify as aiding terrorists, like purchasing narcotics does? *sigh*

  9. $60 million---How do they know? by release7 · · Score: 4, Interesting
    Estimating of the cost of infinitely reproducible 1s and 0s is probably futile and ultimately an exercise in the absurd. Journalists need to stop reporting such numbers as fact without explaining where exactly how this amount is arrived at.

    My guess is that these dollar figure likely assume that every copy of a song downloaded results in a lost record sale so the record labels can cry "boo-hoo" all the way to the bank. However, just because I have the Rocky theme on my hard drive doesn't mean that I would have run out to the store and plunked down $13 bucks for the CD otherwise.

    --

    <a href="http://www.joblessjimmy.com">Work is dumb and so is Jobless Jimmy.</a>

  10. Hell, we raided the library! by ihatewinXP · · Score: 5, Informative

    From the American Library Associations website: http://www.ala.org/alonline/news/2003/030224.html# santafe I was horrified to read that a man was hamdcuffed and brought in for perfectly harmless (but anti-Bush) chat in a library. Read the article and shiver. This story along with the Patriot Act II http://www.onlinejournal.com/Special_Reports/02200 3Winslow/022003winslow.html has me very scared for my basic rights. These scenarios are coming home fast, it's good to watch Australia and Britan to see what's in store.

    --
    ---- The real Slashdot is still here. You just have to browse at -1 to read the comments.
  11. Let's look down the road, shall we? by djupedal · · Score: 4, Interesting

    "Authorities in [your country name here] today raided several warehouses, looking for beer making components in a widespread crackdown on home-brew that several large consortiums claim is responsible for annual corporate loses in the millions."

    "Authorities in [your country name here] today raided several warehouses, looking for bolts of fabric in a widespread crackdown on home-made garments that several large consortiums claim is responsible for annual corporate loses in the millions."

    "Authorities in [your country name here] today raided several warehouses, looking for metal forging tools and raw materials in a widespread crackdown on home-made bicycles that several large consortiums claim is responsible for annual corporate loses in the millions."

    And keep in mind that your tax monies are paying for the police to take action to support these corporations as they reach further and further into your pockets - and your life. Think this is all a reach? Think again...

    1. Re:Let's look down the road, shall we? by Motherfucking+Shit · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I don't think these analogies are really accurate. Of course it's perfectly legal to build your own bicycle, sew your own clothes, and (in some places) brew your own ale. It's also legal to go down to your local music shop, buy a guitar, and make your own music. In all of these cases you're making a creation of your own, using resources you obtained legitimately. You aren't "taking anything away" from anyone or any company.

      What it's not legal to do is hop onto someone else's bicycle parked on the sidewalk and ride away, stuff a pair of Levi's up your shirt on the way out of the department store, or walk out of the gas station with a few Colt 45s. And whether we like it or not, it's also generally not legal to share music.

      --
      "BSD: Free as in speech. Linux: Free as in beer. Windows 10: Free as in herpes." --Man On Pink Corner in #52607549.
  12. Holy shit... by MoThugz · · Score: 4, Insightful

    From the Article: FEDERAL police have executed search warrants on Telstra and internet company Eftel in one of Australia's largest investigations into alleged music piracy, which could be worth up to $60 million.

    Wow... $60 million!

    Assuming the price of a CD is $20, it means that the pirate has an MP3 collection of equivalent to 3,000,000 CDs!

    Assuming each CD has 10 songs on it, then the pirate has 30 million MP3s!

    Assuming each MP3 is about 5 megs... then the amount of storage required is 150TB!

    Did they raid Kazaa's ISP literally... or is this just one journalist's idea of sprucing up what should have been a normal IP-infringement case?

    --
    Welley Corporation - SLM Scammers
  13. $60 million? by the_proton · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Hrmmm, that sounds a bit dodgy to me...

    Lets think about it, assuming each song is worth $5 (a bit generous but let's be nice...), that makes around 12 million songs. With each song being around 3 MB, that'd be 36,000,000 MB... which is about 34 TB.

    Now you can't tell me that any ISP lets customers have that much storage, and they would probably notice if someone, or a small group, was contributing to 34 TB of traffic.

    Sounds like someone might be overestimating by a bit don't you think?

    - proton

  14. Decidely odd by ras · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Copyright violation in Australia is a civil offence in Australia, unless you sell the stuff. Search for the word "civil" here.

    I know this with a fair amount of certainty, as I was on the end of a similar search warrant during the "drink or die" bust. At the time I was totally mystified as to why, after telling me they were going to search my work place for "copyright violations" and having a search warrant that said they could look for anything illegal under Australia law, they took absolutely no interest in the various CD collections we have, nor did they search any of the workstations for illegal software.

    It turned out the target was a guy who used to work here and who did (briefly) have an IRC chat with drink or die after it had been infiltrated. That was how they got our IP. The cops were interested in IRC logs mainly, but I had cleaned up the servers ages ago. His house was later searched and the fed's did find his collection of 200 odd pirated movies. But it was just a hobby - he did not sell anything. I am presuming that is why he has not been charged.

    It is a weird hobby if you ask me. It costs more here in Australia to download & burn a movie then it does to hire it, a lot more in fact.

    Anyway, there has to be more to this than was reported in the article. For the police to be involved someone must be suspected of selling, or somehow otherwise getting monetary gain out of illegally distributing copyrighted material. Australia's copyright laws may sound lame from what I have said, but if someone is found to of broken the criminal law it won't be a slap on the wrist. They will end up in jail.

  15. Re:Note by nathanh · · Score: 4, Funny
    The AFP (Australian Federal Police) is the Australian Equivelant of the FBI. Also ASIO is the Australian Equivelant of the CIA.

    By using the acronyms ASIO, CIA and FBI you have activated the Australian Echelon System. Unfortunately due to budget cutbacks we cannot record your call right now. Please ring again between the hours of 9am and 5pm weekdays and an Echelon Recording Specialist will eavesdrop on your conversation. We value your information and look forwards to eavesdropping on you in the near future.

  16. Really music? by QueenOfSwords · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Is it possible the MP3 story is a cover for an ongoing investigation into child pr0n ? Perhaps that's what the AFP are actually after but they don't want to tip off the crims, they go to ground very quickly.
    There was that story on the news in Australia last night about concern for the whereabouts of a child depicted in a porn photo, those photos don't get out unless someone gets busted. These raids could be a result of that. Just a thought.

    --
    -- INTX Grouch. http://www.midnightblue.net
  17. My experiences with Law & Carriers by harikiri · · Score: 5, Interesting

    When I worked at a major carrier in Australia as a security admin, we had some on staff known as 'LELU' - which from recollection stands for Law Enforcement Lliason Unit. These were the people whom the different law enforcement groups would approach with warrants and requests for subscriber info. Then LELU in turn would approach the security geeks and say 'we need to know which subscriber was on IP address x.x.x.x at 10.30pm GMT+11'.

    Not once do I recall a 'raid' of our subscriber info. The LELU process seemed to be a good mechanism for law agencies to work with the techs at the organisation.

    --
    Man watching 6 MSCE's around a sun box, looks alot like the opening scene's of 2001:space odyssey...