Slashdot Mirror
Internships in the Post-DotCom Era?
aetherspoon asks: "Reading the Internship at Microsoft story, I was wondering what paid jobs were actually still out there for CS majors in the industry. Coming from a CS major who has a stack of 'We're sorry, but...' letters sitting on his desk, I know that I have not had much luck in this area. Are there any places left offering good paid internships?"
...instead of looking for a job right now. If you are an undergraduate, go get a Master degree. If you are holding a Master degree, go get a PHD. The time you finish your education, the economy may have recovered, and you are right there to ride the next wave.
Good luck.
I know plenty of students who have very nice internships that are C.S. majors? Perhaps it depends on what school you go to? In fact, I don't know of many who had decent GPAs who applied and did not get an internship.
To this end, I suggest graduate study in another field. Many graduate programs in the hard sciences (especially PhD programs in the sciences) offer good compensation packages and sometimes include low-cost housing. On top of that, you don't have to pay off your student loans for a while.
Galium Arsenide is the material of the future, and always will be.
In the end, if you're in college and can find a good paying internship, that's great. But you have to keep in mind that you want to find something that can give you valuable experience, or at least more CS experience than working at Best Buy. Also, sometimes looking out of CS helps find untapped areas. There are many profs in non computer departments that need CS people. Who do you think writes the programs that psych majors use for their experiments. These aren't always amazing jobs but they might be better than a summer fixing broken comps. I was interested in Bio and wound up with a job for this summer setting up a gene database, it may end up being just a simple database programming job, but it's better than taking summer school.
The "dot.com bubble burst" three years ago, now the students that went into university to study Computing Science purely because of the "get rich quick" scheme are graduating. They are having problems getting into work.
Now let's think.... 5 years ago there was maybe a tenth of the people doing CS as there are now, internships were available and reasonably well paid. Now all these companies have ten times the applicants that would originally have applied (but this time the other 9 want the money not the job).
If you were a CS company. Who would you want to hire?
I'm a CS major, and I decided to work construction this summer rather than chase an elusive internship. The way I look at it, I'm going to have many years ahead of me where I will be spending my summers working behind a desk. So while I still have a chance, I'm going to take some time and have a job where I can work outside, hang out with my friends (who will be working at the same company), and generally relax (save for inspection days). There is something to be said for getting outside and hauling some lumber or pounding some nails. Admittedly, it is probably not something I would want to do for years and years, but for a summer it can be a pretty good time. It gives you a good sense of balance in life, something that CS majors tend to lack.
Some people like my father have scoffed at this and told me that I "need" to get an internship now or I'll get left behind. I'm sure many other CS majors here have felt the same pressure. However, I think this is when you should take a step back and look at why you got into CS in the first place. I did it because it is something I love to do; the potentially lucrative job market is an added bonus. So what if I don't get an internship and I don't make $foo money when I get a job after school? I'm confident in my abilities so that I will do well in the long run. However, as long as I make enough to live comfortably, I'm happy with that because I would much rather do CS than get a degree like Business where I really have no interest.
Don't take this as saying internships aren't important. It is definitely a good idea to go out and get some real world CS experience. (You can do this to some extent with open source projects on your own schedule.) But just remember, jobs/money are NOT the be all end all when it comes to CS or any other field. Don't forget to enjoy yourself sometimes or you will be left as one of those bitter coders getting mid-life crises in a not-so distant future.
My company hired a coop (we're a 5 person shop, so we only have one). Despite getting lots of resumes via email, I rarely read them. This one came to me from my cousin. Previous hires came from people recommended to me by people in my fraternity.
People I know that are still undergrads are mostly people from my college fraternity (i.e. they were freshman my senior year or first year out when I visited friends there). The ones getting jobs are the ones that network well. The rest are finding research jobs on campus.
The days where you float your resume and get 20 phone calls are over. Sorry.
Time to work on the people skills.
Alex
I'm a Computer Engineering major at a good school. Internships are much harder to come by than in the past. depending on your school, professors may be a good place to look for work, about 25% of profs in my department have founded or co-founded companies, and probably 80% have strong ties with industry. You also might want to look into doing research for your professors. But it probably depends on where you're going to school.
Another tip is to look at local companies, its often a lot easier to convince some one that they want to hire you if they don't have to pay to have you move out there.
Finally, as a senior going to grad school have managed to crack into some of the well recognized companies with big names and cool products. But since everyon wants to work for big important companies, they are a lot more choosy, try scanning through nasdaq and finding tech companies that are big, but not well known.
I know that gov't contractors are looking to hire.
Also, if you end up jobless in the tech arena, get some burger flipping job part time, and set a goal to write a program you can advertise next year, a game, some open source project, something you can brag about. I've had companies flatly refuse me based on my gpa until I said "yeah, but i did this".
And in response to the whole "great internships at microsoft" thing, try looking at Oracle's program, helicopter tours included...
But I think a big problem after the .com fallout were the people who put up this facade and were hired on, even if they didn't know a think about the job they got (Learn C++ in 24 Hours kinda folk).
.com hiring is that the majority of people who have jobs, think that only a minority of people out there know what they're actually doing.
So what I see in post
I think these days the job place and market are less forgiving to incompetence, and to that degree, don't even give people a change because of that fear.
At least that's my experience (being on the hire-er end).
As one of those monkeys, you should not pass over it lightly - even at low pay.
I had a debate with a friend a year or two ago about doing a startup or jumping into a small biz, or applying for a cubicle. He did the former; me the latter.
After his constant job-hopping, he's struggling still and I have been moving up through the ranks slowly by simply living in a box. My technical abilities have stayed sharp and my schedule is reliable and reasonable.
If you can adjust your cost-of-living accordingly, a cubicle is a safe place to be right now. I content to not chase the glory just so I can pay for a beer at the end of the week.
mug
About the hardest hit (albiet delayed a few years) in this economic downturn is the state governments. For a lot of public universities there is a hiring freeze, and people are fearing for their own jobs. I doubt that you'll find *any* IT openings at a public university right now (I've got a lost job, and many frustrating conversations with department heads to prove it).
As far as private universities, they are economically governed by their endowments which may or may not come from donations. If that's the case, they are in the same boat as well, as people nowadays rarely have the money to live comfortably (like it was 1999) much less give it away to a private uni.
Not happening anytime soon...
I get the feeling that computer science will be relegated to a tech college degree. Most work in the field is for entry level programmers and desktop support, neither which need more than a 2 year degree.
Well part of this problem is that Computer Science means different things to different people. I went to CMU, where CS is somewhat respected. My major was Information & Decision Systems, which is, for all intents and purposes the CMU equivalent of the aforementioned BCIS degree, when compared to a CMU CS degree. However, coming out of my degree, I have found that I quite easily know much more about the "science of computing" than many CS majors from less rigorous schools.
Unfortunately I think the time has come to draw the line between computer "scientists" and computer "programmers," just like there is a line between "physicists" and "engineers." It wasn't until I guess about 6 years ago that you could earn a CS degree at CMU that wasn't a double major Math/CS, and to be honest, I think thats the way it should be. Programming is an art, no doubt, but I suspect just as there are "people who speak english" and then there are "writers," there are always going to be "people who can write VB" and "people who could program in any language."
Unfortunately, at this point it time, its very hard for employers to tell who is who, and even to assess their own needs. If you were to ask any employer "do you want some IS grad who hacks VB" or "do you want a CS grad who could really write in any language," they're going to opt for the CS guy, who will subsequently be bored out of his wits writing VB code.
I suspect that soon, and by soon I mean in the next 5 years or so, a real dichotomy is going to emerge in the business world (its already there in academia) between "blue-collar programmers" and "white-collar programmers." Blue collar programming will be taught at tech schools and perhaps 4 year CS degress can refocus their energies on the "science of computing." The business side of the dot-com pipe-dream has already crashed and burned, and now unfortunately it might be time for the rank and file's dreams to meet the same fate.
This too shall pass.
You've got to suck it up and get experience somewhere. Great paying jobs aren't necessarily as good as great experience. My first job paid barely enough to live on (in Dallas) and I still say I learned more there than in the 4+ years since.
The experience pays off loads more in the long run. Trust me on this one. I make over 60k in oklahoma of all places, and with my contracts and side jobs I make over 150k combined (although i'm very lucky in my relationships).
Hard work pays off if you do what Scrooge McDuck said "Work smarter not harder!". Best lesson ever from a stupid Disney cartoon.
Honestly, they're good-- but for the real reason that people should get PhD's. Some try to get a good SysAdmin job with a PhD, and find that experience wins out over the title-- as it should in that case.
A PhD is for learning how to do research. You may end up at a smaller university. You may end up at a research lab. You may end up with a post doc. The jobs are there-- but they are to do endless research.
Now, as a grad student, this is my impression at the moment, and I'm quite fine with it-- I want to do research. Saldy, I know many students in similar positions to mine stating, "But I don't want to do this my whole life..." These people possibly should not have sought a PhD.
I demand a million helicopters and a DOLLAR!
People like that are no more programmers than the guys who pump gas are mechanical engineers. Programmers don't just write code, they should design code. They should resolve and reduce the complexities of the real world into an abstract form on which processes and humans can interact. Programmers should understand the beauty of abstraction, the hard realities of computation and the subtleties of resolving the two. Programmers need to more than glorified code monkeys. Unfortunately, too often, they are just that.
Of course, that's not saying that a degree in non-CS is a bad thing, far from it. But just because you know C++ syntax and some libraries doesn't make you a programmer.
EnkiduEOT
There is no trap so deadly as the trap you set for yourself
-Raymond Chandler, The Long Goodbye
We are still having interns coming to work for us every semesters and summers. Just that we are asking from the local best schools (USC, UCLA and the likes) with high CS GPA. Skills like Java/J2EE, Linux/Unix (Sun) and good working knowledge of Windows (servers) products are extremely important.
Yes, the requirements are rather high but the pay is decent: freshmen start around $15, adding about one dollar for each subsequent year; grad students start around $20, additional years adding one dollar. Add in to the fact that you can very much set your own flexible work schedule, I think it worth it.
We are (F-10) in the 310/MDR area. You just have to look up your school posting more regularly. Despite the (permanent) hiring freeze, I have seen plenty of new (intern) faces recently.
Sorry if you do not fit the requirements tho. Hard times -> plenty of resumes; we get to be picky and choosy. One just have to re-position, educate himself or herself with the skills needed by the market.
Good luck.
I have what one would consider a 4 year MIS degree. I have a job out of college, I get paid 55k a year, plus lots of benefits, while it isn't wonderful it is something. I had no trouble finding this job and many other jobs.
I hope you people aren't expecting a piece of paper to get you into your job because you need experience to back it up (the point of this slashdot article). Get off your butt during school and work also. I'm talking work for free, join your local user groups (awesome networking potential), take any damn internship in your field.
It's because as a student, you need to get experience AND pay the bills. I don't know about you, but I don't want to do TWO full-time jobs to get both.
Although I probably will anyway... *sigh*
Have you read the Moderation Guidelines Addendum?
You might want to consider doing one for free. I know it sucks, but it's great experience, looks great on your resume and will give you a good idea of the field you're getting into.
That's what I did last summer after many interviews, a lot of "we went with someone who had more experience" and one "we don't have room in our budget." I called the latter back and asked if they would take me on in an unpaid capacity. They agreed and it was one of the better decisions I've made. Not only did they end up paying me something at the end (not as much as I would have made with an hourly wage, but a decent amount) but I firmly believe that it was that experience that enabled me to land the job I have right now.
So if you don't have anything better to do with you summer (or whenever you're looking for an internship), consider doing one unpaid.
let me just say, you rock!
:)
helping your employee find a job suited to his unique skills, and thereby losing a good employee... well, damn it... so what if you flunked out of the MBA program for that kind of thinking? I like you!
-pyrrho
Perhaps not a great idea in CS, but just about the only option in biology, physics, chemistry, etc. As a biology/microbiology major with only a minor in CS I'm more or less screwed if I don't get my PhD (besides, I want it). The minor is helping a bit as I nudge around a little in bioinformatics, but frankly it's not really all that exciting to a lot of people in biology. To most biologists bioinformatics is little more than another tool to be used and frankly I'd much rather be doing research.
What makes you think you are not going to become a software professional who:
- Never gets an "exceeds expectations" review
- Finishes projects late
- Is a manager's bane - talented but unreliable
In my experience, bright scholastic underachievers often turn out to be dreamers/dabblers who always want to be working on the "next coolest thing" but can't be bothered to focus on the task at hand. Be careful you're not fooling yourself.It's not that there's no honor in going to war for your coun...::president's family's investments