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The Myth of Radio Spectrum Interference

Selanit writes "Just came across a fascinating article on Salon about a technologist who claims that there is no such thing as "interference" in the radio spectrum. He argues that interference is a symptom of inadequate equipment, not a fact of nature, and that with improved transceivers we could open the spectrum up to high-quality broadcasts by anyone. Reference is made to the GNU Radio Project. Neat stuff." We've posted other stories about this. I wonder if the "color" meme will catch on.

13 of 564 comments (clear)

  1. Not going to happen by SirLantos · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If Reed is right, nearly a century of government policy on how to best administer the airwaves needs to be reconfigured, from the bottom up.

    Based on the power that Television companies hold, does anybody really think this is going to happen? We have a hard enough time with the record labels, now they want to go up against people like NBC?

    Great idea. Unfortunatly, it would never happen without serious reform within the Gov itself.

    Not that I don't like making waves, but one step at a time.

    Just my humble opinion,
    SirLantos

    --
    The flying hamster of DOOM rains coconuts on your pitiful city.
  2. complete bunk by coult · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This article is complete bunk. Yes, its true that radio frequencies are like colors. So imagine this scenario: you are receiving signals from someone who is using 'green'. They are flashing a huge green light, and you can pick up the pulses they are sending by being bathed in the green light. Now someone else comes along and also starts flashing a huge green light. You can't read the signal any more, because there are now two huge green lights bathing you with their signals. How can you tell which pulse is coming from which light? You can't! That's interference.

    --

    All is Number -Pythagoras.

    1. Re:complete bunk by coult · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Sure, you can build in directional antennae, but then your radio has to know what direction the station is in, and be able to keep the antenna pointed in the right direction. Can your walkman keep its antenna pointed in the right direction while you are vigorously jogging? Not for $20 it couldn't.

      --

      All is Number -Pythagoras.

  3. Too optimistic, in my view by archeopterix · · Score: 3, Insightful
    From the article:
    Reed believes that as more and more of radio's basic signal-processing functions are defined in software, rather than etched into hardware, radios will be able to adapt as conditions change, even after they are in use. Reed sees a world of "polite" radios that will negotiate new conversational protocols and ask for assistance from their radio peers.
    I see a tragedy of the commons waiting to happen.

    Radio's basic signal function defined in software? Sure, "Maximize your bandwidth with our new RadioBooster!!!" (at the cost of your neighbors).

    While this guy might have a point - the current FCC policies on RF spectrum might be a bit outdated, I would be careful with deregulation here.

  4. This has been a known fact for a long time... by geewiz45 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Large radio broadcasters love to claim this when there is a threat of a new station being added in their market. Not because there is a possibility of interference if the frequencies are close - they're scared of competition.

    Well made and tuned equipment can eliminate any chance of interference and allow for more radio stations within an area. However, organizations like NAB (www.nab,org) and now, the FCC stonewall any attempts to open up the airwaves. At one time, there was a proposal to allow low power broadcasters to operate, unlicensed, if they could prove they weren't interferring and accept the interference from other channels. It was approved but still puts the "little guy" at a disadvantage: http://www.fcc.gov/mb/audio/lpfm/.

    If there ever was an "ol' boy network", it's broadcasting. If you want to broadcast legally, you're looking at dropping half a million in legal and license fees alone before you buy your first piece of equipment.

    --
    Sit back and relax as Windows 98 installs on your computer.
    1. Re:This has been a known fact for a long time... by Obfuscant · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Well made and tuned equipment can eliminate any chance of interference...

      Unfortunately, this is not true.

      Suppose a city has two stations, one on 1600 kHz and one on 900 kHz. Let's add a station on 700 kHz, ok? Let's put him near the 1600 kHz station, since we don't want these damn antennas cluttering up the whole city. No problem with "well made equipment", right?

      Now consider that near to both the 1600 and 700 antennas is a large, old, steel-framed building, containing tens of thousands of rivets and metal-to-metal joints. Some of these joints have some corrosion. Consider that there may be several such buildings. Why is this a problem?

      Each joint is a potential non-linearity. Each joint is capable of taking the 1600 and 700 signal and creating the sum and difference signals and re-rediating them. The sum is 2300 kHz, outside the AM broadcast band. The difference is ... 900 kHz. The same frequency as an existing station.

      Now consider if you live inside one of these buildings. You used to listen to the station on 900 kHz. Now you hear a wonderful mixed babbling of both the 1600 and 700 kHz stations -- and your radio has nothing to do with creating the problem.

      Let's go one step further. These same non-linear conductors will cause sum and difference issues with single-frequency signals, too. The new station on 700 kHz will sum with itself and cause a signal on 1400 kHz. And it's even worse. The actual result will be signals on every multiple of 700 kHz well up into the shortwave bands. (If the non-linearity created a perfect square wave, you'd get only the odd harmonics, but these aren't perfect and you get even harmonics, too.)

      Can't happen, you say? Yes, it can, and does. I've lived with this problem for the last 4 years from two nearby stations. It has finally gone away, since one of them moved their antenna location a mile further away, but before they did that, they made a lot of the spectrum useless here.

  5. Reed is wrong by Inspector+Lopez · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Reed's article is based on the observation that Maxwell's Equations are linear (for most materials) and that, therefore the waves pass through each other without modification (again, unless you're in pretty exotic environments --- early universe, etc.) The problem with interference arises because of imperfect spectral content and non ideal antenna response for both transmitters and receivers. Interference is like being at a party: There are a lot of people talking, and your ears hear in all directions, so you have to be near the person you're trying to talk to.

    For a variation on this theme, there's an interesting moment in a movie (Frankie and Johnnie?) where there's a terrific racket in a diner, impossible to understand anything, but a cook and a clerk are communicating easily --- by sign language. Consider also those occasional TV images of the Wall Street pit traders flinging gang signs at each other ... the reason that it works is that your eyes have very fine angular sensitivity (high quality antennas) compared to your ears.

    Spectral purity and antenna quality limitations can be overcome --- by money. You can build higher quality receivers and transmitters, bigger antenna installations but it costs money and space in fairly unavoidable ways.

    Reed is also wrong from a regulatory level. It's not just the FCC that you'd have to work with, but the ITU. Those pesky radio waves have this interesting habit of leaking over borders on the ground, and pretty much everywhere down here from satellites.

    There are pretty good reasons to pick on modern broadcasting: crappy content, media concentration --- but "broadcasting" is not one of them. Those great big transmitters permit the use of very dumb receivers with poor sensitivy. The very simplicity and asymmetry of broadcast provides tremendous economic and technical appeal, and I'd be amazed if it ever went away.

    Far more interesting is the glacial progress of DTV in broadcast.

    1. Re:Reed is wrong by WolfWithoutAClause · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Reed's article is based on the observation that Maxwell's Equations are linear (for most materials) and that, therefore the waves pass through each other without modification (again, unless you're in pretty exotic environments --- early universe, etc.)

      Yes. In practice at microwave frequencies the radio waves are rapidly absorbed. This actually raises the potential capacity of the network, since it acts a bit like sound deadening in a building.

      The problem with interference arises because of imperfect spectral content and non ideal antenna response for both transmitters and receivers.

      Not just that though. It also happens because one or other of the users of a particular band is using too much power, or is using it too much. Think of the airwaves as a multidrop ethernet and you're probably more what Reed is talking about. You wouldn't try to use 1 ethernet cable for a whole country- but they seem to want to do that with radio- why are the transmitters so 'loud'?

      Also, are you claiming that the interference is likely to be so bad that none of the frequencies available to you are free? Because that's what it would take. Don't forget that you don't have to see the source directly, you can route through other radio users; and they can be situated at different angles. Also, consider that if both sources are interfering at your location, there's a high probability that they are interfering at other locations as well; a protocol that changes one of them to a different frequency automatically would do very well.

      Interference is like being at a party: There are a lot of people talking, and your ears hear in all directions, so you have to be near the person you're trying to talk to.

      Good analogy. Trouble is, ears are unidirectional. But if we give everyone cat ears, the party gets much quieter; even though cat ears are imperfect. Also if someone in the middle of the party needs to talk to someone across the room- he can always whisper it to his neighbour, who can pass it along, rather than standing up and bellowing at the top of his voice.

      --

      -WolfWithoutAClause

      "Gravity is only a theory, not a fact!"
  6. He's right by Fapestniegd · · Score: 4, Insightful

    with improved transceivers we could open the spectrum up to high-quality broadcasts by anyone
    While this is *techniclly* correct, On could also say that A knife could be built that can cut a loaf of bread into infinite pieces, if we could design it to cut sub-elementary particles. Why are we not making knives that can do this? Because the technology isn't there, and if it was it would probably be cost prohibitive.

  7. Qwerty is a fact of life... Live with it. by asciimonster · · Score: 3, Insightful

    There are many concepts that, if tweaked to the current technology, could be greatly improved. However, keeping old technology also has it's merits: Firstly, it's proven technology so all quicks are known or resolved; New technology undoubtedly has more problems. Even the threat that new technology has more problems, people will not use it. Also, changing to a new kind of technology require huge investments. New technology has to be pretty profitable if it is to overcome the investments made in the old one.

    This principle is part of human nature: People get used to some kind of technology/ideas and stick to it. Even when these concepts stop to be meaningful. I refer to the Querty-effect: Old typewriters had little pins with letters on them which hit an ink-soaked ribbon and presses it onto the paper. To prevent these pins from hitting eachother (which happened a lot), the qwerty keyboard was invented. The most abundant letters in English were as far apart as possible to prevent collisions. But a computer doen's have pins, so why do we still use a qwerty keybaord?
    But also think of buttons in programmes: You press buttons in real life, why show them on a screen and press them with a virtual hand (the mouse cursor)? There are many more examples; the radio/TV frequency story if Mr. Reed being one of them.

    The problem usually isn't the technology, it's the ideas that need to be changed. But sometimes technology improvements do get through, e.g. the DVD is nothing than an up-to date CD. MP3-player replacing the old walkman. Telefones replacing the telegraph.

    Things change, ideas change. Some want to accellerate it, some want to slow it down. In the end, things just change at the rate they do and, as harsh as it sounds, there's nothing you can do about it. It just takes a little time...

  8. I think the technical by PotatoHead · · Score: 3, Insightful

    aspect of this article are total bunk. However, I do think we should rethink our spectrum.

    High quality broadcasts for everyone is a pipe dream. Want to know how that works out? Check out our Citizens Band. Not pretty at all.

    I am in the process of getting an amateur radio license again. HAMs do more with less spectrum than just about anybody. Doing this has made me rethink spectrum allocations and how they are wasted. The amateur bands have very reasonable band plans that allow for a number of uses and work well.

    Our primary problem with spectrum use is the band planning, not the avaliable resource. (Which is limited no matter what this guy says.)

    Commercial and military uses basically get what they ask for and they ask for everything they can.

    Comes back to this really. We live in a competitive culture. We have given companies the same rights we have. They are better competetors than we are.

    We lose.

    Our fault.

  9. The myth of color spectrum interference by Bugmaster · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Mr. Reed is abosultely correct: the radio spectrum is pretty much the same thing as the color spectrum. If there is no such thing as radio interference (in the non-physics sense of the word), then there shouldn't be color interference, either. Therefore, I propose the following experiment that everyone can do at home.

    You will need:

    • A sheet of college-ruled paper
    • A green marker
    • A copy of Moby Dick
    Open up the Moby Dick to the first page. Then, with the marker, start transcribing the text onto the sheet of paper -- "call me Ishmael" and all. When you run out of space, don't get more paper -- instead, just go back to the top of the sheet, and overwrite the text that's already there. When you are done with the entire Moby Dick, mail the sheet to Mr. Reed.

    Since there is no such thing as color spectrum interference, Mr. Reed should be able to read the entire Moby Dick just from the one sheet of paper.

    This revolutionary discovery will surely eliminate waste, and save our rainforests... If only the paper-making companies didn't want to keep it under wraps !

    --
    >|<*:=
  10. Re:Yes, Claude Shannon says "he's full of shit." by TheSync · · Score: 3, Insightful

    YOU CAN'T TRANSMIT AN ARBITRARILY LARGE AMOUNT OF DATA/SECOND ON A FINITE AMOUNT OF BANDWIDTH

    You mean through an information channel of finite bandwidth.

    However radio paths exist in a 3D environment, which can multiply the number of channels of finite bandwidth. Reed's point is really about mesh networks and using spatial diversity receivers to create more "pipes" (i.e. channels) through the air at the same frequency.

    In his concepts, mesh networked receivers can even work together to untangle interfered signals. It doesn't lead to infinite information capacity, but it sure is higher than what most radio spectrum is used for today.

    Reed really shouldn't say that there isn't interference...it is that interference as physicists know it is a useful and constructive tool (as in holograms), unless your radio architecture is stupid (i.e. uni-frequency, uni-source broadcast).