Increasing Fuel Mileage With Hydrogen?

cr0sh asks: "I was recently looking into the costs and availabilty associated with small, hydrogen fuel cells (results: they are still expensive), when I came across this site about the Hydrogen-Boost [Warning: Pop-ups]. Looking at this site, it seemed like just another in the long line of scamming 'get more mileage/power' engine products out there, but it intrigued me enough to continue looking into it. I eventually came upon another site on hydrogen experiments. A little more searching revealed this one about constructing your own Hydro-Boost device, which goes into detail about how you would build such a system. None of these sites answered the big questions, however: 'does it work?', and 'if so, how well?'. I also wanted something a little more authoritative. So, back to digging...which came up with this paper from OSTI [PDF]. The very first line of the abstract of this paper reads 'It is well known that hydrogen addition to spark-ignited (SI) engines can reduce exhaust emissions and increase efficiency.' This paper seems to advance the notion that such a system like the 'Hydrogen Boost' system may actually work. Does Slashdot think such a system would work? If so, how it could be improved, especially given today's rapidly rising gasoline prices, here in America?"

"On the experiments site, via the link to 'Hydrogen Experiments Part 2', the author references the first site. He ultimately decides to 'home-brew' his own system instead, and gives enough detail for anybody to do so. I was hoping the author had more details on the effects caused by dumping hydrogen into his engine, but that doesn't appear to be.

A notable observation on the Hydro Boost Device is that instead of using a stainless steel mesh as the other guy uses (which would seem to be a superior material to use, though difficult to find), this design uses galvanized steel bolts for the electrodes, making it something that can be built from materials found at a local building materials warehouse."

Comments

Hydrogen isn't ready... check out hybrids

[Gortbusters.org]

I did some research and ended up chosing a Honda hybrid. There just wasn't enough of an availability to the consumer to drive something based on hydrogen. At least not yet.

My civic hybrid gets 45-47 MPG, is quiet as hell, and was fairly cheap. GM and Ford both have alternative fuel vehicle programs, but until I can go down to the local dealer and drive home with a hydrogen F-150, I'll be in a hybrid.

Re:Hydrogen isn't ready... check out hybrids

[parc]

Here, here!

I've had a civic hybrid for almost a year now. Overall, it's averaging 41 mpg. Not incredible, but I live in a hilly, HOT area. A/C drags down the fuel effeciency considerably. I pull about 45 mpg without A/C. On long trips over relativley flat roads, I get about 47 mpg.

And, just to contradict myself, I also own a 2000 Toyota Celica That get 28-30mpg in the summer (with A/C) and has gotten as high as 35-38 mpg on long trips.

Re:Hydrogen isn't ready... check out hybrids

[Gortbusters.org]

I have driven the Toytoa Prius... I thought it had worse pickup than the Civic Hybrid. I actually test drove the Prius twice. Bottom line: Prius feels like a go cart, Civic feels like a normal sedan.

Re:Hydrogen isn't ready... check out hybrids

[parc]

We weren't given the chance. The local Toyota dealer wouldn't let us drive it. We were expected to purchase it on faith.

The Prius was pretty small, and would have been a step down from our existing car (another civic). Combined with the price, the civic was a better car.

Note that I own both a Toyota and a Honda, so I wasn't leaning towards the Honda simply from customer loyalty. In the end, the size of the car and the price were the deciding factors. The Prius had a markup, and the Civic didn't, so the civic was about 2k less than the prius.

Why fuel cells are expensive.

[barureddy]

Most fuel cells that will be used in cars will be PEM (proton exchange membrane) fuel cells. The problem with PEM fuel cells is that it requires a platinum catalyst to remove the electron from the hydrogen aton. As we know platinum is one of the most expensive elements on earth. The key is to find a catalyst that is cheaper and just as noble as platinum. There are other hydrogen fuel cells out there, but they usually operate at high temperatures (the main advantage of PEM). It is not like you want to wait 5 minutes for your car to warm up before you leave.

Probably not a good idea

[ishmaelflood]

The energy required to break the water up into hydrogen and oxygen will be at least equal to, and in a practical electrolytic cell it will be greater than, the energy you get back by burning the hydrogen later on. Typical electrolytic processes are around 60% efficient, from memory. This energy comes from the battery, which is about 92% efficient, which comes from the alternator, which is about 60% efficient, which is driven by the engine. So I get a loop efficiency of about 30%.

However, there may be some subtle advantages in adding gaseous hydrogen and oxygen to the fuel mixture. I doubt they would compensate for the efficiencies in the first paragraph.

You should ignore this post, the oil companies are paying me $$$ to suppress these crazy inventions.

Re:Hydro boost from water vapor?

[Dark Bard]

I think you are talking about water injection. It's been done since at least WWII. They use to use it on I believe Mustangs for added horse power. It isn't the hydrogen burning it's the fact water steam expands at a higher rate than gas vapors. There have been a few systems for cars. The downside is it tends to over heat the engine. I WWII they just used it briefly as an emergency measure. I don't believe there was any improvement in mileage or polution, just horsepower.

Re:ATTN those posting about fuel cells:

[DaChesserCat]

It's a known fact that you can run an Internal Combustion Engine on hydrogen gas.

The person to go looking for on this one is Roger Billings; he's currently with the International Academy of Science (I drive by there every morning on my way to work). He was driving hydrogen-powered ICE vehicles back in the '70's.

He ran into two problems with running an engine on Hydrogen.

• Backfiring; he details how, on his first attempt to power a lawn-mower engine on hydrogen gas (he was in his teens) he nearly blew himself and his brother up when the engine backfired. He later overcame the problem (years later) with a water injection system which kept the intake air cool enough that the ultra-volatile hydrogen wouldn't ignite before the spark plug fired
• NOx emissions; basically, when the temperature in the combustion chamber gets above 700F, you get more Nitric Oxides building up (NItrogen and Oxygen in the air bonding together), and hydrogen can EASILY beat that temperature. Again, the water injection system kept the max temp below the level, keeping the NOx emissions down.

He got hydrogen engines down to such an artform that he modified a Volkswagen Beetle ('72, IIRC) to run on the stuff for a college competition (he was an undergrad at the time), and the emissions coming out of the tailpipe were actually CLEANER than the air going into the intake. Basically, any Carbon Monoxide or unburned Hydrocarbons (common vehicle pollutants) which made it into the intake were finished off in the process, and the hydrogen fuel didn't produce any such emissions (water vapor).

I'd be wary about adding hydrogen to a gasoline engine to help the economy. You'd need a significant amount of hydrogen to make any real difference, and hydrogen storage these days is either:

• high-pressure gas (expensive, heavy tanks and very little capacity)
• liquid hydrogen (cryogenic materials, with associated hazards)
• metal hydride (the safest of the bunch, but still very expensive for significant amounts of storage)
  

Sorry guys, but this sounds like B.S.

another story of junk that might work

[TheSHAD0W]

I once read a page containing a suspect method for boosting the power of a motor by adding water. I don't remember how I ran across the page, but it was full of rambling by someone who basically had no idea how chemistry works but who had done some experimenting and may have stumbled on something...

The idea basically involved mixing water and gasoline before feeding it into the engine. A surfactant was used to allow the two to misch, so the engine was never fed pure water. The experimenter also bolted a hunk of platinum to the top of the cylinder, saying the platinum would be a catalyst and would crack the water into hydrogen and oxygen, producing more energy.

Pretty funny, huh?

Well, maybe not. I sent him a letter with an alternative theory; that the added water absorbed heat and evaporated, trading heat that would otherwise be wasted for additional pressure inside the cylinder. I also postulated that the platinum chunk wasn't taking an active part in the situation, but was instead using up space inside the cylinder and increasing the compression ratio; and that a ratio that would lead to pre-detonation in a pure gasoline engine might not do so in a system that ran at lower temperatures, thanks to the water's cooling effect. I suggested running a few experiments to find out, by measuring operating temperatures with and without the water, and by bolting in a hunk of steel in place of the platinum and seeing if it made a difference. I also recommended he try a dual injection system, one for fuel and one for water, rather than try and mix them.

I did get an email message back from the page's maintainer, but I've no idea if the experimenter ever got the message. Oh well.

Sacrifice Power....

[tanveer1979]

Here in india we are not that power consious. So a 90-95mph top speed car(diesal) gives around 20Km/ltr on long trips, thats about 12.5 miles to a litre or more than 60 MPG!. So if you are willing to sacrifice power, its easy to get economy