Suing for Overtime?

An unidentified submitter asks: "There is a federal law that requires all non programmer-type jobs be compensated for overtime. Last year, over the course of a year, I have worked 500 hours of overtime without comp time, bonus, or paid overtime. I have since left the company, and currently I am attempting to sue the company for lost wages. Has anyone ever been in a similar situation, and do they have any advice/tips? Also is anyone aware of good computer/IT labor attorneys?"

Comments

programmer-type?

[MattCohn.com]

"programmer-type"?

What would that meen. Do Network Administrators fall in that catigory? How about website developers? Website designers? I'm wondering, how is it defined, and where is the line drawn?

Start by...

[SoCalChris]

I would start by making sure I had documentation of all of the hours I had worked and was suing for. I'm not sure how you would prove it otherwise.

Also, if you are working in an exempt position, you're probably screwed since bonuses & comp time aren't typically legally required by the company. Good luck though.

Re:Start by...

[DonFinch]

Trustworthy Computing!!!

Re:Start by...

[s88]

Actually you should "start by" reading your employeement contract. Chances are you signed away any such right when you started your job.

Scott

Re:Start by...

[Danse]

Just because the contract says that doesn't mean it's enforceable. If it violates some state or federal law, then the clause would be rendered unenforceable.

compensation != (dollars*hours)

[mcdrewski42]

I think you will soon find that your emloyer considers that they factored in 'compensation' into your original package. At least that's what they "normally" do in Australia.

Perhaps the courts aren't your best recourse in this climate.

Re:compensation != (dollars*hours)

[arb]

I think you will soon find that your emloyer considers that they factored in 'compensation' into your original package. At least that's what they "normally" do in Australia.

True - to a point. Packages are normally deemed to include consideration for "a reasonable amount of unpaid overtime". To the best of my knowledge, there have been no real challenges to determine what constitutes reasonable. I know some unions were trying to define it as being no more than 5-10 hours per week for short periods of time. (ie, not 10 hours per week, every week.)

Re:compensation != (dollars*hours)

[ctr2sprt]

The problem with unions trying to do that is they'll end up setting very specific limits: for example, 40-hour work weeks with 5 hours overtime. Net result will be that everyone will have to work that much, all the time. I think most people are willing to work overtime where reasonable; for example, if someone is sick or otherwise unavailable, other people need to step up and pick up the slack. And while we'd obviously prefer to be paid for the overtime, I think most people would be willing to do it "for free." It's only when employers start to take advantage of this willingness that we have problems.

But on the other side of the coin, look at the labor laws in much of Europe where it's impossible to work more than an hour or so of overtime. This is great for lazy slobs like myself who start complaining if they work 40 hours and 1 minute a week, but bad for people who want to pick up a little extra money. In particular, it's bad for those who are... well, not near the poverty line, but certainly on the lower end of middle class. For those people, 5 or 10 hours of regular overtime may mean the difference between eating enough and eating well. And it gives them more free time compared to getting a second job.

I think the moral of the story here is that we need common sense from both unions and management. After all, if management keeps setting up "mandatory overtime," then obviously the unions are going to find some way to effectively eliminate overtime entirely, which hurts both parties. But given the history of unions, and what we see from management right now, I have absolutely zero faith that any sort of compromise, rational or otherwise, will be reached.

Sorry (The link went bad)

[brejc8]

intel is having a few problems with its hire fire stratergy. The ex employees are taking a class action against the company over the "UNPAID OVERTIME" (Sorry but the website goes a little ott on the capitals)

In California

[aaarrrgggh]

In my field, in CA if you make $78k or more you are considered to be in a "management" position, and are not eligible for overtime. I believe the requirement is that a skilled field in a "management" level.

There are two classifications of overtime-- there are "exempt" and "non-exempt" employees.

Before you try and sue someone, check your time cards! If you didn't indicate on the time card that you worked overtime (and signed it), then you have lied... good luck getting any money! If the time is documented, but not paid, you have a chance.

Related article...

[waffle zero]

... altough some could argue repeated.

Are Coders Exempt From California's Overtime Laws?

Are we left to assume you were paid hourly?

[one9nine]

Were you a salaried employee? If so I don't think you stand much of a chance unless you wrote down your hours and had a manager sign them (which very rarely happens if you are on salary).

If you were a contactor and/or paid by the hour, with all due respect, why in the hell did you not bring this up with your employeer immediately. Why did you work 500 hours (over three monts worth) and not say anything until you got fired (excuse me, "left the company")?

Every place I worked where I was paid by the hour made me specify how many regular hours I worked and how many overtime hours I worked with a clear explaination of the overtime policy right above where you sign the time sheet.

I and thousands of us here have been screw over by an employer (or two, or three), but this is unfortunately is your own damn fault.

Use your Tax dollars

[RobertEdwards]

If you'd been paid that overtime, you'd have paid more income taxes, right?

Give the tax collection agencies a call. Most of them have a tips hotline.

Also call the national department of labor, and your state's department of labor.

I will note that based on stories related to me, this sort of fraud seems to be common in the Resterant industry. The stories I've heard were from a waiter who turend in each of his ex-employers to the state, and collected fat back wage checkes each time. Perhaps you should research this on a Waiter oriented web site.

Targeted Advertising

[linuxwrangler]

WOW! /.'s target advertising is brilliant.

As I read this topic on overtime the banner ad has links for:

Time Card/Overtime Calculator Software" to help you track it,

Woodley and McGillivary overtime lawyers and
Edwards and George overtime lawyers to help you sue for it and

Career Builders to help you find a new job when you are done with the lawyers.

Re:AOL!

[Yonder Way]

I'm in the same boat.

Were this a different economy, I'd probably push the issue knowing that if I lost the fight I'd be able to go somewhere that had fair compensation policies.

Preliminary research shows that IT managers can choose to compensate excessive overtime via flat fee bonuses or comp time, but probably should not be paid on an hourly basis. The dilemma for employers who really want to do right by their employees is that overtime compensation for exempt employees can threaten the employee's exempt status, and trigger a retroactive compensation for all overtime worked over the last three years. Though, the threat is usually blown out of proportion by companies who want to hide behind these gotchas in order to get lots of free labor.

Though I haven't been keeping track of my hours worked to date, it might be appropriate considering that the number of weekends that I'm expected to sacrafice to my employer is extending well into the spring, and conflicting badly with my more important responsibility of being a good husband and father.

I think the only way one can reasonably expect to confront their management and seriously expect compensation is if the entirety of the IT department goes in together and acts *gasp* almost like a labor union. This is a very dangerous move, and will definitely trigger threats by the employer and maybe a few token dismissals to drive the point home. But they cannot afford to lose their whole IT department at once and if everyone sticks to their guns, real change can happen.

I need to take my Palm Pilot out of mothballs; I used to have an application on there to break down billing hours for all of my clients, and it did a great job of reporting my hours over a given period of time. That way if anyone gives me crap for going home early on a sunny friday afternoon I have something to point back to. Better yet, I'd rather have official comp time or straight time compensation.

Federal Law?

[DeComposer]

There are an awful lot of salaried, non-manangement people who've been working bazillions of hours of unpaid overtime.

AFAIK, this is fully permitted by law; overtime pay is specified in the terms of their employment contracts.

If you know of a specific federal law that mandates pay, regardless of exempt status, I (and 60 million other salary-slaves) would certainly appreciate a link to the relevant law.

oh, these post-ironic times

[Jamie Zawinski]

Currently the top two articles on "Ask Slashdot" are:

• Suing for Overtime?
• Improving Company Morale?

That's funny, that is.

Re:IT jobs

[LinuxXPHybrid]

I've been working as a software developer, but I never had chance to meet and speak with customers, end-users in my previous jobs. Now that I meet and speak with these people, I find that they have practically no clue whatsoever how much we work to accomplish a certain task. Even though the work I do raises productivity greatly and/or cuts operation cost greatly, they do not see how our digital work equates to their analog work.

I am guessing that law makers are also thinking like this; they don't get. People like Al Gore are very few. Probably people in mass media are, if not the same, similar.

Our (IT workers) overtime is somehow not considered overtime like miners work overtime and our cow-workers work overtime. It is unfortunate, but it may take a while for the general society to realize that IT workers' overtime is same as coal miners' overtime.

My advice

[inflexion]

My advice is this: quit being such a whiney gayhole. Did you have a contract with the company saying you would get paid overtime? No. You worked the extra hours to get the job done and that's what everyone in interesting professional jobs does. If you were a garbage man then I might be able to see your point...you would expect to be paid per hour worked. But a software position is more task oriented. By that, I mean instead of being expected to work 40 hour/week, you're expected to finish 1 project per quarter (or whatever arbitrary number your manager decides someone in your position should be capable of). If you can't complete the number of required projects in the time given then there's no question: you MUST work overtime and not expect to be compensated for it!

Re:My advice

[dubl-u]

Did you have a contract with the company saying you would get paid overtime? No. You worked the extra hours to get the job done and that's what everyone in interesting professional jobs does.

True, but there's generally an implicit quid pro quo. I used to work for financial traders, where 50-hour weeks were considered normal, and a few times I ended up working 50-hour days. But I never fretted about it; it was the deal I signed up for, and I knew that they'd take care of me, especially at bonus time.

Another fine way to tackle this is through profit-sharing or ownership. I love working for startups; everybody is committed to making things go. That's mainly because they like doing it, but the fact that they own a piece of it sure doesn't hurt.

But there are certainly companies out there that don't get this. Their notion is that they are playing a zero-sum game with their workers, where their goal is to maximize hours worked and minimize dollars given to workers. And they aren't up front about it, either; nobody tells you in advance that you've signed up for a death march.

This is, of course, foolishness; in the long run, it works about as well as Iraqi motivational techniques. Smart companies know that to get more, they give more. And since business is a positive-sum game, it generally works out for everybody involved.

Not really...

[NoMoreNicksLeft]

Just one more example of CmdrTaco and his crew reposting the same article. Happens all the time...

Here is the law

[DanAnderson26]

California also has some of their own additions, if you live there look into them.

http://www.dol.gov/dol/allcfr/ESA/Title_29/Part_54 1/29CFR541.3.htm

Not many people outside of operations environments are non-exempt in IT. As such, they are paid for their skill, and not their time.

Dan

Yes you can with a little luck

[monkeyboy87]

a group of employees including myself got such a case settled about 10 years ago. But you will need some luck on your side. You will need your time sheets documenting your overtime. And now the luck part. typically, an employer will have rules (like a behaviour guidelines/holiday leave policy etc) and will spell things out for non-professional staff such as secretaries, admin support staff etc and a set of guideliness for professional employees etc. if you have proof that they ever changed your employment class ie treated you like an hourly employee when you are on a salary they are toast. In our case the employer did two stupid things: the company docked one programmer 1 days worth of pay for taking a two hour lunch and wrote a memo demanding that professional employees should routinely work 15-20 hours of overtime a week.

Call em up..

[technos]

.. Say 'Listen, [insert expletive or name. I suggest 'Jackhole'], I've got 502.75 hours of unpaid overtime. Documented. You raked my ass over the coals with a [layoff/firing/downsizing], and the way State law figures, you owe me $5.71 million in cash and valuable prizes.

Do you want to continue being a [expletive/jackhole], and pay a bloodsucking shark so I can just wring it out of your dying corporate corpse with interest anyway, or do you want to simply pay me 4.67 million and toss in a used Maserati so I won't open a can off class action whoopass on you?

I know Bob in Networking had 747.14 hours of overtime last year, and I'm sure he could use a quality used Lotus instead of putting a new alternator in his Camry. Do you want me to call Bob? Or Gina, in Support?

Or Alfie, the whacko that peed in the punch bowl and groped the VP after four vodka tonics at the company party? He's just gotten out of the rubber room the layoff put him in, I'm sure he'll consult with his friend Old Kentucky Shark and drop by looking to have a good time in his old cubicle after I tell him you owe him three Porsche and a Mercedes, plus whatever is behind door number three in Today's Showcase.. I think he left a back door in the accounting system..

Oh, no.. You [expletives/jackholes, perhaps now is a time to throw in 'asshats'] shouldn't take this as a threat. I'm not threatening anything! How do I know if I'll push some of your psychotic disgruntled ex-employees over the edge? How am I an expert on what the courts will do when Lisa, who wrote your new property management system in her free time, and I'm sure would love to know she still owns it because you dumbasses never made her sign the IP agreement, sues you?

We're all reasonable people here.. Just give me what you owe me, before I beat it out of your cold, lifeless body with a pitchfork wielding lawyer, and then set the pack of dogs on you.