Of course they do...
by
MosesJones
·
· Score: 3, Interesting
In terms of being "better" at the game than others, but part of the question should be is it cheating, or just another game.
Someone who buys or downloads a cheat that someone else made is a different deal, and clearly some of those people are pretty sad individuals who just want to say "ha ha fragged you", before never ever having sex with anyone.
However the person who creates the cheat, who engages in what can be described as espionage against the game developer is playing a different game of skill, that person is learning things, developing things and playing their own game with their own rules and "winning" by being able to cheat. The challenge here isn't to be better at Quake, but to be able to cheat the best at Quake, that in itself is a game.
How about an open game in which these developers play their cheats off against each other using the best players without cheats as the players in the game. That way you can find out who developed the best cheat.
-- An Eye for an Eye will make the whole world blind - Gandhi
I'm not sure about how the Xbox handles games (how much does it load on the hard disk?), but wouldn't consoles which run the software off of a non-rewritable medium (PS2/Gamecube) be ideal for online gaming since then the distributor can control what software is on everyone's machine?
--
Galium Arsenide is the material of the future, and always will be.
Some Common-Sense Solutions
by
fuzzybunny
·
· Score: 4, Interesting
Note, I'm not a really hard-core gamer or expert, so take this with a grain of salt, but...
Cheating in online games is always going to be a problem. You won't solve it, but can at least reduce it to the point where a server admin can deal with individual accusations.
-Only send each client information it really needs. -Use checksums on binaries and libraries and things. -Try to get more 'mature' gaming crowds together. I have noticed vast difference playing Battlefield 1942 at various times during the day, such as when it's mostly high school kids, or people with jobs who start playing after dinner, whatever. -Make it clear that cheating sucks and won't be tolerated--this can help catch the remaining people with aimbot screen overlays and things that automated means won't take care of.
Netrek used some anti-cheating mechanism, by embedding an RSA key in every "authorized" client, to which only a few developers known to the "RSA guy" and the Netrek community as a whole had access. Imperfect system, but it reduced use of bots to the point where it didn't really matter.
Also, one thing that a lot of people forget is that a lot of 'active' cheats (mainly bots in action games) fall into one of two categories:
a) Fully-automated -- these are predictable. b) Partially automated -- things like aimbots. Their "owners" probably suck otherwise. If they see you, they'll get off a clean shot, but you don't have to confront them directly to smash them.
I am usually sufficiently gratified when I crush someone I suspect strongly of cheating by knowing it's probably some whiny 13 year old staring at his screen in impotent frustration to not really care about the other 9 out of 10 times he's beat me, not by skill but through some technology he most likely didn't create.
I hate cheaters
by
diablobynight
·
· Score: 3, Interesting
Especially in Counterstrike. I took down my counterstrike server because I spent half my time banning cheaters. The key thing I turned off was the ability to see anything after you died, I found players would ghost enimies and then relay this to their teamates sitting in the same room. It really pissed me off, because of an obvious reason, the dead shouldn't be able to talk to the living, (without a medium and a big seance).
I think cheating in one player games, like I did after I went through and beat Hitman 2 the first time, is fun. But people who cheat in online games, how do they even find it enjoyable. Have the fun of the game is the challenge, being able to cheat and win is stupid. Just develop your skills and get better.
All cheaters should have their IP and user name out on a CS ban list, that all CS servers will automatically view and then BAN those people.
The University of Tennessee-Knoxville. Our number one complaint from kids: "Why is Kazaa so slow?" Number two: "Look, I am a professional gamer and I am getting lag to the game server in Fiji that we use. And it is your fault." I had a kid claim that he made $60000 one year. Is this possible?
-- Comparing it to Windows will be a moot point, since El Dorado is going to have a 40% larger code base than XP.
Two kinds of cheating
by
Pejorian
·
· Score: 3, Interesting
Hey, I haven't seen anyone mentioning that there are two kinds of cheating. The Quake-style cheats that involve looking through walls or whatever are relatively harmless, mainly because most people can play Quake online for free, and unless someone is wagering on your performance, there's no cash rewards.
On-line game cheating in role-playing, especially subscription games is FAR more serious, because in some games, the currency or objects of power or weapons are worth real cash and can even be sold on e-bay (see the post with the e-bay link above) and it suddenly matters very much that some people are cheating.
-- - Murphy's Corollary: -
It is impossible to make things foolproof
because fools are so ingenious.
Re:Wallhackers and the honesty of surveillance
by
Moloch666
·
· Score: 4, Interesting
I normally stick to the same servers, usually the crowd on some are better than others. When I get familiar with the other players that are regulars I don't have to worry about playing exceptional. They can tell a cheater, they also have seen me play enough to know I have my good days and bad days.
The other day my favorite servers where full, so I went elsewhere. It was a clan operated server clan name was [CM] I believe. Sadly, people that are in a clan automatically think they are good, these people were not. Their movement was very predictable or nonexistent. Along with another player we were seriously killing these people and they outnumbered us 4:3. It wasn't long before we both were kicked. I immediately reconnected, just to see what the deal was (and make fun of them). They were convinced I was cheating, people act like it is hard to get head shots or something. The damn cheaters out there ruin the game for the good players.
Sorry for my rambling, I just get frustrated. When I come home from work, sometimes I just want to smoke some wacky tobaccy and shoot people in the head.
-- Understanding is a three-edged sword. -- Kosh Naranek
Cheating is a social problem--
by
Cerebus
·
· Score: 5, Interesting
--and therefore requires a social solution.
As long as code executes on fundamentally untrusted platforms and as long as code is imperfect, there is no way to prevent cheating or exploiting in a multiplayer game. That's just the way it is; more technology isn't going to change it a whit, especially for
If we approach the problem socially, however, solutions present themselves.
Many games provide unique identifiers for each installation, like Half-Life/CounterStrike. This is usually an anti-piracy measure-- but we could use it to control cheating. Banning by unique ID is part of the solution, but not everything. Consider a solution modeled on USENET killfiles--
I join a game, and the client downloads the UIDs of the other connected players. The client compares this list against my personal list of people I don't like to play against (cheaters-- or maybe just obnoxious twits) and notifies me if any are in the game. I can then make an informed decision about whether to play there or look elsewhere.
Clients could also collaborate; if a player joins who's on my 'shit list,' I could allow the client to notify the other players. Perhaps even an automated voting scheme could be enabled-- a player UID thats on enough people's shit lists could be automatically banned (assuming the server allows it).
Yes, there would be a market for new UIDs, much as there is a market for CD keys. However, if the client makes it easy enough to maintain the shit list, that in and of itself is only a temporary problem. As a side-effect, if an ID gets widespread my client plonks the whole lot of cheaters with one entry.
The emergent behaviour of such a system would force all the cheaters to play each other on cheater-friendly servers. At that point, who cares? 8) I see this as a win-win scenario; cheaters get to cheat, and the rest of us don't get bothered.
Some games are partway there. Tribes2 and some CS admin mods have voting mechanisms that kick/ban players; but this doesn't carry over between servers, whereas the above scheme would.
A third-party tool would help, but to be really effective it needs to be integrated into the game client so that all players are using it.
-- -- Cerebus
What I do to users that cheat at my online games..
by
mustangdavis
·
· Score: 4, Interesting
Now I know that everyone that administers an online game handles cheaters differently, but here is what we like to do... (depending on how "bad" they have been)
First, deactivate their account(s)
Allow the other players to pick appart their characters, so that the people that "lost" something from these cheaters can enjoy a little revenge...
Rename their characters in a very colorful, but interesting way... example: General Pink Fuzzy Bunny of Candyland
Post in the forums who was caught cheating, what they did, any appropriate amount of proof, and what penalties they suffered from for cheating
Then, finally, sit back and allow the player community to embarass the person that cheated
Now, don't get me wrong... we're not terrible people. When a player in our game finds a bug, we reward them for reporting it to the proper moderator and for not exploiting it (other than to verify that they did, in fact, find a bug).
We only do the above nasty things to people when they ruin the experience for the other players... and if they do it intentionally. We do our best to squash any time of bug or imperfection in game balance as soon as it is located, but no game is perfect... and there will always be people out there that are going to ruin games for an entire gaming community just for a laugh, so we allow the community to retain some sort of dignity by allowing them to have the last laugh....
It may not be the perfect answer, but most of the people playing my games seem to enjoy it...
Begin Ranting and Raving
My thought on cheating, especially with games, is simple: Why would you spend hours and hours playing a game that doesn't provide a challenge? If you cheat, it takes away the feeling of accomplishment that you have when you're done playing... whether you win or lose... since all you have done is proven that you don't have the skill to win; that you have to cheat in order to feel the "thrill of victory"... and that you are so selfish and self-centered that you don't take into account that there are other people playing against you, people that have invested their time and effort, that have just wasted their time so that you can prove that you suck so bad at a game that you have to cheat...
So again, what is the point of cheating?... to prove that you an untalented, selfish ass???
Slashdot Mirror
Anyone care to add up these total sales?
In terms of being "better" at the game than others, but part of the question should be is it cheating, or just another game.
Someone who buys or downloads a cheat that someone else made is a different deal, and clearly some of those people are pretty sad individuals who just want to say "ha ha fragged you", before never ever having sex with anyone.
However the person who creates the cheat, who engages in what can be described as espionage against the game developer is playing a different game of skill, that person is learning things, developing things and playing their own game with their own rules and "winning" by being able to cheat. The challenge here isn't to be better at Quake, but to be able to cheat the best at Quake, that in itself is a game.
How about an open game in which these developers play their cheats off against each other using the best players without cheats as the players in the game. That way you can find out who developed the best cheat.
An Eye for an Eye will make the whole world blind - Gandhi
I'm not sure about how the Xbox handles games (how much does it load on the hard disk?), but wouldn't consoles which run the software off of a non-rewritable medium (PS2/Gamecube) be ideal for online gaming since then the distributor can control what software is on everyone's machine?
Galium Arsenide is the material of the future, and always will be.
Note, I'm not a really hard-core gamer or expert, so take this with a grain of salt, but...
Cheating in online games is always going to be a problem. You won't solve it, but can at least reduce it to the point where a server admin can deal with individual accusations.
-Only send each client information it really needs.
-Use checksums on binaries and libraries and things.
-Try to get more 'mature' gaming crowds together. I have noticed vast difference playing Battlefield 1942 at various times during the day, such as when it's mostly high school kids, or people with jobs who start playing after dinner, whatever.
-Make it clear that cheating sucks and won't be tolerated--this can help catch the remaining people with aimbot screen overlays and things that automated means won't take care of.
Netrek used some anti-cheating mechanism, by embedding an RSA key in every "authorized" client, to which only a few developers known to the "RSA guy" and the Netrek community as a whole had access. Imperfect system, but it reduced use of bots to the point where it didn't really matter.
Also, one thing that a lot of people forget is that a lot of 'active' cheats (mainly bots in action games) fall into one of two categories:
a) Fully-automated -- these are predictable.
b) Partially automated -- things like aimbots. Their "owners" probably suck otherwise. If they see you, they'll get off a clean shot, but you don't have to confront them directly to smash them.
I am usually sufficiently gratified when I crush someone I suspect strongly of cheating by knowing it's probably some whiny 13 year old staring at his screen in impotent frustration to not really care about the other 9 out of 10 times he's beat me, not by skill but through some technology he most likely didn't create.
Cole's Law: Thinly sliced cabbage
Especially in Counterstrike. I took down my counterstrike server because I spent half my time banning cheaters. The key thing I turned off was the ability to see anything after you died, I found players would ghost enimies and then relay this to their teamates sitting in the same room. It really pissed me off, because of an obvious reason, the dead shouldn't be able to talk to the living, (without a medium and a big seance). I think cheating in one player games, like I did after I went through and beat Hitman 2 the first time, is fun. But people who cheat in online games, how do they even find it enjoyable. Have the fun of the game is the challenge, being able to cheat and win is stupid. Just develop your skills and get better. All cheaters should have their IP and user name out on a CS ban list, that all CS servers will automatically view and then BAN those people.
Anonymous Cowards - Oh God, How I hate you
The University of Tennessee-Knoxville. Our number one complaint from kids: "Why is Kazaa so slow?" Number two: "Look, I am a professional gamer and I am getting lag to the game server in Fiji that we use. And it is your fault." I had a kid claim that he made $60000 one year. Is this possible?
Comparing it to Windows will be a moot point, since El Dorado is going to have a 40% larger code base than XP.
Hey, I haven't seen anyone mentioning that there are two kinds of cheating. The Quake-style cheats that involve looking through walls or whatever are relatively harmless, mainly because most people can play Quake online for free, and unless someone is wagering on your performance, there's no cash rewards.
On-line game cheating in role-playing, especially subscription games is FAR more serious, because in some games, the currency or objects of power or weapons are worth real cash and can even be sold on e-bay (see the post with the e-bay link above) and it suddenly matters very much that some people are cheating.
- Murphy's Corollary: - It is impossible to make things foolproof because fools are so ingenious.
I normally stick to the same servers, usually the crowd on some are better than others. When I get familiar with the other players that are regulars I don't have to worry about playing exceptional. They can tell a cheater, they also have seen me play enough to know I have my good days and bad days.
The other day my favorite servers where full, so I went elsewhere. It was a clan operated server clan name was [CM] I believe. Sadly, people that are in a clan automatically think they are good, these people were not. Their movement was very predictable or nonexistent. Along with another player we were seriously killing these people and they outnumbered us 4:3. It wasn't long before we both were kicked. I immediately reconnected, just to see what the deal was (and make fun of them). They were convinced I was cheating, people act like it is hard to get head shots or something. The damn cheaters out there ruin the game for the good players.
Sorry for my rambling, I just get frustrated. When I come home from work, sometimes I just want to smoke some wacky tobaccy and shoot people in the head.
Understanding is a three-edged sword. -- Kosh Naranek
--and therefore requires a social solution.
As long as code executes on fundamentally untrusted platforms and as long as code is imperfect, there is no way to prevent cheating or exploiting in a multiplayer game. That's just the way it is; more technology isn't going to change it a whit, especially for
If we approach the problem socially, however, solutions present themselves.
Many games provide unique identifiers for each installation, like Half-Life/CounterStrike. This is usually an anti-piracy measure-- but we could use it to control cheating. Banning by unique ID is part of the solution, but not everything. Consider a solution modeled on USENET killfiles--
I join a game, and the client downloads the UIDs of the other connected players. The client compares this list against my personal list of people I don't like to play against (cheaters-- or maybe just obnoxious twits) and notifies me if any are in the game. I can then make an informed decision about whether to play there or look elsewhere.
Clients could also collaborate; if a player joins who's on my 'shit list,' I could allow the client to notify the other players. Perhaps even an automated voting scheme could be enabled-- a player UID thats on enough people's shit lists could be automatically banned (assuming the server allows it).
Yes, there would be a market for new UIDs, much as there is a market for CD keys. However, if the client makes it easy enough to maintain the shit list, that in and of itself is only a temporary problem. As a side-effect, if an ID gets widespread my client plonks the whole lot of cheaters with one entry.
The emergent behaviour of such a system would force all the cheaters to play each other on cheater-friendly servers. At that point, who cares? 8) I see this as a win-win scenario; cheaters get to cheat, and the rest of us don't get bothered.
Some games are partway there. Tribes2 and some CS admin mods have voting mechanisms that kick/ban players; but this doesn't carry over between servers, whereas the above scheme would.
A third-party tool would help, but to be really effective it needs to be integrated into the game client so that all players are using it.
-- Cerebus
I run several massively multiplayer, free, web based online games (WWII - War of Supremacy - war.coldfirestudios.com and Space - Glory Through Conquest - space.coldfirestudios.com to name a couple)
Now I know that everyone that administers an online game handles cheaters differently, but here is what we like to do
Now, don't get me wrong
We only do the above nasty things to people when they ruin the experience for the other players
It may not be the perfect answer, but most of the people playing my games seem to enjoy it
Begin Ranting and Raving
My thought on cheating, especially with games, is simple: Why would you spend hours and hours playing a game that doesn't provide a challenge? If you cheat, it takes away the feeling of accomplishment that you have when you're done playing
So again, what is the point of cheating?
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