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Games Workshop Tries to Crack Down on Internet Sales
heirodule writes "In this messageboard posting internet retailer The warstore says he was contacted by Games Workshop, maker of miniature wargames such as Warhammer 40,000 and the Lord of the Rings Battle Game. GW will be refusing to distribute their product to retailers who sell over the internet after July 1. That's bad enough, but they cited the problem of IP violations (like people posting pictures of their products?) as part of the rationale. The claim is that for GW, this has nothing to do with internet sales offering discounts (yeah, right) but with the 'experience' that GW wants customers to have (of coming into their own stores and getting a hard sell)." The nearest Game Workshop store to me is a 1 hour, 10 minute drive, according to their store locator. The Usenet thread may be of interest.
So if you sell GW stuff on the internet but don't have pictures, just descriptions you should be ok. People can always go to the GW site to see what the stuff looks like, or read White Dwarf.
graspee
I hate this "you have to buy from a local retailer" BS. It's like this with a lot of AV equipment. I can't mailorder the speakers I want...they want me to get ripped off at a local dealer. So, I end up ordering from a grey market dealer for 1/2 MSRP.
The problem isn't with the Internet. If you want to charge more locally do it, but I better get some good service for the extra money. Plus, you better stock the exact model I want and not take 3 weeks to get it.
That's why my friends and I would buy the set, sell the minatures on, and then make cardstock chits for our battles. We just played a 3,000 point Warmaster battle for the total investment of the rules and the 2002 annual (about $50).
Suppose that's a DMCA violation because I made an apparatus to bypass their propriatary miniatures?
If brevity is the soul of wit, then how does one explain Twitter?
When I was in highschool and playing WH and the like there was a big split in Games Workshop that resulted in the creation of Warzone which is basically a WH clone but the cost of the figures was MUCH cheaper and the quality much higher. Games Workshop drove their modelers from their company by making the game too expensive to be played by your average High School student and making the working environment intollerable. Games Workshop seems to think they can do whatever they want and the customers will still buy their overpriced product and up till now they have been correct, maybe this will be the straw that broke the camels back. Question: How does this look on a legal front? How can a distributer say that the location of a store is grounds for not distributing to that store? I don't know anything about the relevent laws and thought someone might.
I'm thinking that if they come after us for playing their games without using their miniatures, the best thing to do would be to invent different rules and keep them under an open content license. After that, companies can compete to sell minis for the new open ruleset.
Finding God in a Dog
I have to wonder if this isn't also part of a larger issue?
Namely, the creators of these fantasy/role-playing games and miniatures attained their initial glory and status in the "pre-Internet" era. (By that, I mean, John Q, Gamer wasn't actively using an Internet browser at home or playing many games online.)
Companies like TSR made oodles of cash selling D&D books at $30 a pop through the local hobby shops, and items like the minitatures were soon to follow.
Nowdays, the prevalence of computers,the net, and online gaming seems like it is eating into their market. I guess some companies adapted better than others. (Look at how TSR went into the computer simulation game business in a *big* way.) In general though, I suspect the changes are somewhat lost on them.
I can easily see how they'd view the web and computer gaming as "the enemy" - since it would seem to be drawing folks away from a world of using one's own imagination to game, while establishing a "concreteness" to the whole thing by the purchase of small figurines. (In the virtual world, you simply look at photos of your favorite characters - perhaps as wallpaper or screen savers? The games provide a multimedia experience so you don't need to imagine what some "dungeon master" is trying to describe to you with just words.)
I started participating in auctions online and collecting an army for roughly half the price of what I was paying at the store. My army grew to more than 120 pieces before GW decided "welp, it's time to change the Chaos rule book and all the minis so we can make more money selling people new versions of what they already have." Fortunately, I only played with friends and not in tournaments since they banned all older minis from the tournaments. I couldn't see any reason to go out and by another Blood Thirster of Khorne when the one I already had was adequate enough.
Even back in those days, GW was trying to strong arm online retailers and auctioners into not giving discount prices. If anything, those prices made it easier for GW to clear out their old stock to bring in the new line. I certainly never would have as many minis as I do now if I had to pay full retail on all of them. Seems like they only want to shoot themselves in the foot. I wonder what they would think about how I created molds and copied some of the minis I had bought for my own use ($6 a pop for infantry level guys gets rather rough).
Don't leave your mind so open that your brain falls out. Don't close it so much that you cut off the blood.
Seriously, pardon my ignorance, but why exactly do you need to consult with a salesperson about buying miniatures? What value do they add? Consulting a salesperson on a computer if you don't know much about them? I can buy that. But purchasing miniatures for a game? I don't get it.
I have actually been in a GameWorks, I went to lunch with a couple of friends who were into it and they went in to buy some stuff. To tell you the truth, the place kind of creeped me out. And I didn't see anyone working too hard in there either.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
I have a close friend who owns a Hobby Store which is the local Games Workshop re-seller. It is hard for them to make a living with the availability of cheep online stuff. Most sell at a 10-20 percent discont, which is the REAL problem.
You can always buy online from GamesWorkshop web site it self. There is no dicount however.
I hope the Hobby Store can stay in business, they offer tables to play and gather. I lecture the kids at the store all the time when they brag about buying this and that online for 50-75% off. You should support the hobby store or not play there.
Eventually the trend will be one source for these things, and no local places selling. This is bad for the economy.
Think globally, shop locally.
-Richard
Come the revolution, the Bourgeois, Capitalistic, "A PARKING STICKER HOLDERS", will be first against the wall!
okay, so i used to work for GW (I actually did the casting of the miniatures at their baltimore site - mind that i said casting and not sculpting). a friend of mine headed up the north american mail order dept. he showed me some numbers one day and explained the how-and-why of gw.
basically, they give crap-all about retail stores (their own or the indy's the push into being chapter approved). it's all just exposure. as he explained it to me, 80% of their revenue came in through mail-order (this was '95). 80% in north american, 80% asia/australia, and 80% in europe. at the time (and most likely now) they were the largest mail-order gaming company in the world. period.
so what's changed? nothing. you can buy online and i'm quite sure that gw isn't interested in anyone else profitting off their very lucractive mail/online-order business without shelling out some serious cash to become "chapter approved". it's just their business strategy - plain and simple.
that said, i used to be able to buy the miniatures by weight. that means an eight dollar item normally cost me about six cents. models were 50% off. but i left the company after being told that i needed to paint the "games workshop" way or not field an army. which pissed me off because i paint very well, just not their way. gw is the most ridiculously overpriced gaming company ever. this part of my rant is going nowhere fast...
to summarize: gw + mail/online-order = profit.
that's really all there is to it. honest.
The problem is that brick & moarter stores cost a lot more to run than your average Internet shop. A low traffic location will cost you upwards of $200/month. Then you have to worry about keeping the store manned. (Remember, minimum wage means minimum quality) Also, all that equipment being demonstrated sucks up electricity. Even when it's "off." (It's really in standby) Then add shoplifting to your list of costs. There's probably a few things I'm missing here.
You can get managed hosting at Rackspace and a self-storage unit(for use as a warehouse) in your local area for much less than that, and you can do all of the work on your own time, at your own hours, at your own wage.
What's this Submit thingy do?
If there's a copyright violation, my guess is that it's either due to all the stores all using the same images that the manufacturer actually made, or they're using the manufacturer's trademark logos, as opposed to simply using the name as part of an item's description. The stuff about copyright violation is probably either bullshit, or it's something easy to avoid infringing. A seller can just get a $200 digital camera and take pictures of the merchandise themselves, and that's that. Use the manufacturer's name to describe who made the product, rather than using their logo or possibly confusing customers about whether you represent that manufacturer or not.
Setting heinous terms of sale, though, is probably do-able. If you want to buy a bunch of stuff from the manufacturer at below list price (so that you can resell it at a profit), then they can get you to agree to whatever terms they want to try to get from you, in exchange for that lower price. If you don't like the terms (which might say that selling over the net is prohibited) then you don't have to buy the items. I suspect they'll get away with that. But as everyone else is pointing out, the thing that they'll "get away with" will probably not really be to their advantage. (Just as if I were to put an ad in the paper saying I'm selling a Honda Civic, Honda can't do a damned thing about it.)
I don't see why this is a big deal or how "EVERY INTERNET BUSINESS" is threatened. And I can't imagine there are any serious barriers to someone else opening a manufacturing business that does the same thing and competes and blows these guys to hell It's not like there are patents on pouring molten pewter (or whatever these things use) into a mold, are there? (If there were, they would have expired centuries ago, no?) I bet this is a craft where the playing field is very level. (Now someone will shoot me down for my ignorance. Fine, show me.)
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
Thought I'd take the opportunity to put my (british) 2p in. I used to play Warhammer 40k, dabbled with Adeptus Titanicus (think Mechwarrior but bigger and darker), and a number of the other GW games. Collected White Dwarf until about issue 130, with back issues down to about #20.
I gave up wargaming altogether at about age 13 when a blister of overscale lead minatures went from GBP 3 to GBP 4 overnight. I still think Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay has one of the richest and most interesting backgrounds of any RPG (renaissance fantasy with Lovecraftian undertones would be the best description I can think of).
I do know a fair bit of the history of GW, both gleaned from the trade press and from conversations I've had with people who've met Steve Jackson and Ian Livingstone (not the Steve Jackson of Illuminati:NWO, Car Wars, GURPS, etc fame). I've also met people who've applied for jobs with GW, both retail and creative. (I live in Birmingham, about an hour or so from GW's headquarters and design studios in Nottingham, UK.)
It would probably be fair to say that GW started the Apple of the gaming world, before morphing into the Microsoft-equivalent. It was started by a pair of hippies in a flat in London, making wooden chess and backgammon boards. I'm not too sure about the early years, but by the mid 1980's White Dwarf magazine was probably the best general roleplaying magazine available in the world, it covered AD&D, Call of Cthulhu, Runequest and many others large and small. The GW chain of shops stocked roleplaying games from a range of publishers, and minatures from Citadel (GW's subsidiary), and others. At some point Warhammer Battle appeared, as did a few other gems like UK editions of Call of Cthulhu, and Runequest; the Judge Dredd roleplaying game; and wonderful boardgames like Fury of Dracula, Curse of the Mummy's Tomb, and Blockmania. At this point in time they were seriously good roleplaying/wargaming shops, with a bloody good design studio turning out a range of quality product.
The aforementioned pair of hippies, Steve Jackson and Iain Livingstone got themselves a new hobby: writing Fighting Fantasy choose your own adventure books. This proved to be a fair bit more lucrative than running Games Workshop, so at some point in the mid to late 80's they sold up and over three or four years GW became the company you see today.
The basic marketing idea GW use these days is to catch'em young, preferably before the age of 10, and try to convince these kids that GW comprise the the known gaming universe. Hence the attempt to restrict distribution to sites that they control, to prevent impressionable young minds from realising that companies and people other than Games Workshop make cool and interesting games and minatures.
Even after switching all of their production over to lead-free metal a few years ago, which was a major re-tooling effort, the mark-up on minatures is pretty huge, especially when you have that much market share (kids pocket money is big business these days) and control over what minatures are fielded in competition/leagues, which are admittedly a good way to chill and meet people when you're a young geek. The move to more plastic minatures was mainly a cost-saving issue, as well as a way to break into a slightly younger market.
Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay was licensed to Hogshead publishing, which was the best thing that ever happened to it (I was one of the people who waited 15 years for a supplement described in the first edition of the rulebook as 'in progress').
Anyway, I hope that gives you a little more insight into GW, personally I got back into minatures when I saw Flintloque, dammn good fun and easy to get started (between 6-12 minatures a side is a good skirmish, the rules work well with more players, each person controls their own squad of minatures. Plus, the minatures are way cool, Orc redcoats and Elven Voltigeurs, wargaming was meant to be this way.