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AI Going Nowhere?
jhigh writes "Marvin Minsky, co-founder of the MIT Artificial Intelligence Labratories is displeased with the progress in the development of autonomous intelligent machines. I found this quote more than a little amusing: '"The worst fad has been these stupid little robots," said Minsky. "Graduate students are wasting 3 years of their lives soldering and repairing robots, instead of making them smart. It's really shocking."'"
He has a complete disregard for the question of where the AI engine will run. If an AI is to be of any more use than a curiousity then those "little autonomous robots" must function in a viable manner so that the AI has something to do when it comes to "life".
I understand his frustration in general progress. But, those grad students are building a strong foundation for their later work that may very well meet the goals he is espousing. No need to have design flaws in implementation down the road because the engineer wasn't properly educated in physical design as well as logical design.
-Rusty
The Master (Angelo Rossitto) in Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome, "Not shit, energy!"
Yes, the man is quite brilliant, and possibly the most important voice in the field. That being said, he's also a self-important jerk. Intelligent Systems (what people in the field call AI) aren't where *he* thinks they should be, and he regularly complains about it.
Does it bothers you that AI is going nowhere?
Je t'aime Stéphanie
I don't see NON-ARTIFICIAL intelligence progressing a whole hell of a lot either...
It's not the AI which is going nowhere. It's the traditional approaches to AI such as Minsky's symbolic logic which are not going anywhere. Seach google for Henry Markram, Maass, Tsodyks. Their research seems very promising.
Well...
One could argue that our brains are just synapses firing. Each one on it's own knows absolutely nothing. However, it's the SYNERGISTIC effects of all the synapses working together that creates our brain, which allows us to reason, etc (Note: This is without religion getting in the way, I'd personally not go there...)
Steve
> You'll never have real, true intelligence
:-)
Define "real, true intelligence"
> You can try to simulate that, but so far
> simulation consists of what amounts to a
> gazillion 'if' tests
That's what tradiditonal AI school is doing. Yes, you are correct. It won't go anywhere. On the other hand spiking neural networks are very promising. Search google for "liquid state machine". These researches are making progress novadays, not Minsky.
Humans measure intelligence by gauging replys to questions that have quantified answers. Giving an advanced computer a IQ test is sinply a matter of recalling the appropriate information from memory to answer. The true form of AI isnt about intelligence, its about reason. But how do you teach a computer to respond with an answer to a question that the computer has never encountered before... When we build a machine that can answer a question based on incomplete imput we will have made the first step in creating a machine that can "think"
reply to MYCROFTXXX@lunaauthority.com
Fire in the hands of the village idiot is no tool, but a weapon of mass destruction
How about we more thoroughly study and understand how human intelligence operates before we even presume to design something that imitates or rivals it in depth and complexity.
Come off it, stop making escuses. Robitics and AI are two entirely different branchs. AI is almost pure math and computing, and robotics is an engineering discipline. Why are AI researching building little robots?
Building any form of AI system is not easy, but copping out of it by building toys is not the answer. We already have platforms for AI; they're called line terminals. Things like pattern matching do not require a fully autonomous robot, after all.
Minsky is right; whats new to come out of actual AI research in the last 30 years?
No one has ever been able to satisfactorily create/reproduce one.
:).
My parents had no problem producing a brain; four in fact. Maybe I'll create some myself some day. I could tell you how but I'd need a signed note from your mom
Creating brains isn't hard; creating artificial brains is.
lysergically yours
* One might claim LTP or LTD as some sort of neuronal knowledge. Ok, that's fair, but my point stands if you apply it to the building blocks of neurons. Do ion channels "know"? Do amino acids? It's turtles all the way down.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
"Graduate students are wasting 3 years of their lives soldering and repairing robots, instead of making them smart. It's really shocking."
Yeah, much more shocking than the -- decades -- he (and others in the 'hard AI' camp) have been spending? They've made oh-so-much more progress, haven't they?
Rodney Brookes made more progress with his robots in the early nineties than the whole hard AI camp did in 3 decades. I remember seeing a documentary once comparing this huge robot which used a traditional procedural program to navigate through a boulder-strewn field. It took about 3 HOURS to decide where to put its foot next. Meanwhile, little subsumption architecture-based robots were crawling around like ants, in real-time. (Oh, and some of them had to learn to walk from first principles every time they were turned on -- only took about half an hour!) That's the most damning evidence of the failure of hard AI I can think of.
As others here have said, what good is a brain until we get a useful BODY working? Manueverability and acute senses are a must before an artificial intelligence can do anything useful, or learn from its environment effectively.
ERROR 144 - REBOOT ?
I took Minsky's class last year, and let me tell you, the article couldn't print 75% of the irate stuff he has to say about AI, MIT, and life in general. We once spent an hour class session listening to Misky rant about modern science fiction and random things he didn't like about his Powerbook. In fact, most of his classes were extended rants about something or other (you zealots will be happy to know that he too, hates the Microsoft).
He comes across as affable but bitter. I found it strange that though he cointually complains about the leadership of the AI lab, he and his protege Winston were in control of it for some ~30 years without making any groundbreaking progress. In fact, Minsky's latest work "The Emotion Engine" is simply a retread of his decades-old "Society of Mind." I suspect that now that Brooks and the new guard are moving in, the old guard is looking for someone blame its lack of results on.
Please mod the parent up.
:-(
I am an AI researcher and the parent poster is speaking truthfully.
The main challenges in AI at the moment do not concern building the physical robots -- e.g. a piece of kit on wheels with IR sensors or such things.
The main challenges in AI concern applying some very complicated math to solve problems like pattern recognition, density estimation and other forms of machine learning.
It seems to me that a large number of AI PhD students spend their lives tinkering with the mechanics and electronics of the robots that will ultimately be used to test their algorithms. This is wasted time; a good electronics graduate should be able to do the tinkering, it shouldn't require a prospective AI PhD student to do it.
I can see the point in the PhD student learning a little about the hardware that they want to run their algorithms on (so that they know the limitations and common problems with real hardware), but they should not spend all their time doing that and wasting the opportunity to spend their time contributing to their field (i.e. AI, not mechanics or electronics).
That said, many AI labs do not have the funding to be able to pay full time hardware technicians, so in many cases the PhD student *has* to do the tinkering
"The noble art of losing face will one day save the human race"---Hans Blix
(Bits On Our Mind, an exhibition of some undergrad and graduate computer science work) ...and I headed STRAIGHT for the nematode booth. You see, I had heard that some clever Cornellian had created a simulation of the entire neural network of a nematode. The way I saw it, there was nothing else there that could possibly be more interesting than that.
:P
So I found myself standing in front of a computer screen. It was a worm swimming through water! In 3D! In real time! After I pushed my jaw shut, I began to ask the genius student some questions...
"Is that real-time?" "Well, actually, no, that is a 10 second looping clip that took a week to calculate."
"Well, I see a neural map there. Is that complete?" "Well, actually, no, that is a simplified version of the real nematode nervous system, on the order of about 1 simulated neuron to 10 actual neurons."
"So you simulate neurons! That's awesome. Let's see the code." (He proceeds to flip through 4-5 pages of very sophisticated-looking mathematical equations to describe the behavior of ONE neuron.)
What a let-down! No wonder Minsky is pissed, real AI is HARD!
"Al Going Nowhere?"
well duh!
what idiot made the lowercase L and uppercase I look the same?
but, since we're on the subject, did you know Al Gore invented the field of AI?
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
You're making the same leap of faith that most people make (and I now think is incorrect): The human (or Dog) mind is a biological computer therefore an IBM with the right software is also a mind in the same sense.
It doesn't work this way, and yes, there is a difference. Having an outward appearance of intelligence is not enough to show intelligence. Read Searle and Block's discussions on the Chinese Room argument -- it's a fascinating and eye opening read (I think it was Block that -- quite convincingly, IMHO -- makes the case that most of our intelligence is innately biological, and "strong AI" not even possible with what we know today).
IMHO one of the problems with AI is that we don't even know what human intelligence is, and until there is a fundamental advance (not technological but in our understanding of our human/biological mind) then it seems to me the most we can hope for are machines that mindlessly ape intelligent behavior, but are not intelligent in any but very superficial ways or by very loose definitions.
Something that mimics the outward appearance of intelligence is a far cry from what, hopefully we'll be capable of in the (probably still distant?) future.