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Review: Matrix: Reloaded
PsndCsrV writes:
Due to some fortunate circumstances, I was able to partake of the Matrix goodness ahead of the release. Overall, I thought the movie was excellent, but there were some issues (for me, at least) that kept it from being spectacular. It's definitely worth seeing, and if you're worried about it not being that good, go see a matinee screening and skip the popcorn. ;-) It is a blatant cliffhanger, though, so if that drives you nuts, you better just wait until November. Keep reading for a more in depth look, and I'll try not to let any spoilers slip.
The special effects were great. I personally didn't see anything totally revolutionary in them... it seems like most of it was simply "bullet time", but more refined, utilizing CG where cameras don't make it. Only a couple of times did I feel that the CG wasn't quite right, and even then it wasn't due to the impossibility of the action. It was mostly due to a character's arms/legs/hair/clothes that didn't move 100% naturally during a stunt, which is definitely difficult to get right. There was only a couple instances in 1 scene that come to mind immediately, so the effects people did an excellent job.
One of the main criticisms of the first Matrix was the lack of character development. Well, I won't lie to you... there's not a whole lot of character development in this one either. There was more, but not for any of the main characters really. A little more insight into Morpheus's life, a new take on the Oracle, the introduction of some new characters, and the whole thing going on with Agent Smith. But there are still a lot of gaps in the characters, but Reloaded does make you feel like you're starting to understand things better, and that the next movie will be very enlightening.
One of the best after-effects of the first Matrix was the way it made you question your own take on reality. It really made you wonder what's real, and what's not. What's important to me, and what's not. Or maybe I was just being overly philosophical about it. Reloaded really does a good job of leaving you questioning, but this time, you're speculating about the movie and where it will head... how things will be resolved. Reloaded ends with many loose ends, and many questions unanswered, but at the same time, it's an excellent opportunity to speculate. I definitely want to see Revolutions now, and it's a good thing I only have to wait 6 months.
The movie also flowed well. I didn't ever feel like a scene was put in "just because", except once. I personally felt that the love scene between Neo and Trinity was a little overboard, and that a lot more could have been said with a much more subtle approach. Intermixed with this, were shots of the people of Zion having a wild dance party/orgy. Ok, so the orgy was implied with the whole sexual nature of the dance scene. I couldn't help but relate it to Herbert's Fremen spice orgy in Dune, except without the spice. It struck me as the same type of situation.
To sum it up, I really enjoyed it. My only big complaint was the love scene, but I am a conservative person. Other people will undoubtedly love the movie just for that scene. The rest of the movies was great, and definitely sets up Revolutions as a must see.
of this release is not having Revolutions waiting right there for you to see. They could have lined up 90% of the people from that theatre and herded us into the next theatre emtpying our wallets as we went.
;)
While the ending is not surprising it certainly leaves you wanting to see the rest of the story. I personally didn't notice any cg mistakes, but I usually don't until my second viewing of a film unless they are just glaring mistakes.
The main flaws with the movie are a slow start that really does little to develop the characters. If they wanted to break from the constant action for that purpose they didn't do the best job. I heard several people in the theatre complain about the somewhat technical dialog that takes place in the movie. That was no big deal to me as it all made perfect sense, but I could see how others might not like it or pick up on it. Then again I laughed out loud when I saw the terminal with ssh 10.2.2.2 on it
Spoilers continue, of course...
I agree. I realized that the world where Zion lives isn't real as soon as Agent Smith downloaded himself to it at the beginning.
Which means that the entire war between the men and the machines, the humans as batteries stuff, *all* the backstory set up in the first movie, may be fake. All of it. There may be another real story we're going to find out in the last one.
The thing I found most interesting was learning how the Oracle works. She simulates humans to 99.9%+ accuracy. The entire system is set up to simulate humans, to make available the choices that they are expected to make. Neo is The One because he doesn't make the expected choices. He doesn't choose to simply believe in reaity. Zion is a place for those who don't exactly fit prediction to have a place to "escape" to. Neo's real breakthrough is that he's going to escape Zion.
The interesting thing about all this is that the Oracle decides what she wants you to do, and says what needs to be said to get you to do it, based upon her simulation. No point to this observation, I just thought it was interesting.
So after purchasing tickets weeks in advance, waiting 3 hours in line, myself and two other friends just walked out of the advanced screening of Matrix 2, in utter disgust. After a flashy introduction of what we had come to see (stunning gunfights in bullet time and brilliant martial arts) the film turns into a huge primal orgy in Zion. Granted we were expecting the film to expand on Neo and Trinity's romantic affairs, but did we really need to be exposed to Keano Reeves and Carrie Moss having sex? I feel that in this sequel the Watchowski Brothers abandoned all of the philosophical values that Neo personified in the original Matrix. I therefore ask slashdot: are we alone on this opinion?
Fight or flight its all the same
Live to die another day
--Ryan
!!!!SPOILER warning.......!!
...(oracle))
!!!!SPOILER warning.......!!
the scene where neo was able to stop the sentinel machines.... here's my reasoning
(anyway neo pants and faints - probably showing signs just like the original matrix of him not being ready and "maybe waiting for something"
perhaps, the world is made up of several layers of matricies. the 'real world' as shown in zion is probably another matrix level, since neo was able to control the sentinel machines. the constant comments about 'failsafe' mentioned throughout the movie is one of the biggest hints.
i'm thinking this has to do with the big bang theory that the world started off with one entity (1 matrix). each revision of the matrix is really adding new layers of improvement of matrix, ie, the layers of the matricies are also expanding. (you also see this near the opening 'credits' where they zoom out the code and it looks like as if it's part of a small galaxy.... and also the part where morpheus says "goodnight zion" looking at zion's lights where everything looks like stars filling a night's sky)
so this may have to do with the notion that humans always will continue to fight for freedom (freeing themselves one level highter) while the world will always continue to "expand". (extension of the big bang theory also says the world may eventually collaspe back to it's original exploding source - the end of the world.)
the constant perfecting of the matrix talked by the architect -- 6 previous versions - may have to do with genesis (bible) that the world was created in 6 days... each day being a step towards creating the world that we believe that we are living in today.
lawrence fishburn said in an interview ones that in the 1st movie, morpheus is a leader (or something like that), 2nd movie: general, and 3rd movie: man. maybe he's "unplugged" and reborn in the "REAL-REAL" world? or is that just realizing that the prophecy is just bullshit...?
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You did notice none of this organic life happened to be unfit or over 25 didn't you?
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
About Zion being rebuilt many times without evidence: boy there sure are a lot of tunnels underground, and the machines did of course have to tunnel their way through to zion. The architect mentioned that zion had been destroyed multiple times, and each time this had been done more efficiently. Thus many tunnels would have been created.
If you watch carefully, as the sentinels are flying around, they are flying through a large empty cylindrical cavern with the same crossing walkways as zion had. If that's not the ruins of a previous zion, I dunno what is.
Er, the movie doesn't specifically state that the sentinels are not attacking zion itself when they fly through the "ruins" of another zion. But it also doesn't explicitly state that zion is under attack, something I'm sure they would have mentioned.
Anyhow, yes I think zion has been destroyed and rebuilt 5 times before.. unless of course the "real" world is also an illusion.
Oh one more thing about the reviews: Neo is not a Christ-like figure. He's a Buddha-like figure. The whole point is that Neo should come to understand "why" things happen, that he uses the meta-knowledge from past matrices to reach enlightenment. The children that make offerings to him dress awfully similar to Buddhist monks, although that made things a little to obvious to me.
About 12 people reproducing into 250,000 people so quickly: yes this is possible. if each woman produced as many children as could be done healthily, say 10, you could do it in 4 new generations:
7 women * 10 children = 70 new ppl.
70 * 0.5 (50% girls) * 10 children = 350 new ppl.
350 *0.5 *10 = +1750 ppl.
8750 *0.5*10 = +43750 ppl.
218750 *0.5*10 = +218750 ppl.
12 + 70 + 350 + 1750 + 43750 + 218750
= 273,420 ppl.
Figure the early generation eventually dies off, and some other die off as well, you could get close to 250k easily in 100 years.
Assuming the first 12 are near child-bearing age when they start, and the bulk of the ppl get the reproducing done around age 25, 25*4 = 100 years.
The gratuitous orgy scene was put in there on purpose. They're reproducing as if their survival of the species depended on it.
No one has ever fired for blaming Microsoft.
What's interesting is that people will listen to the Oracle. I thought this was a central point of Reloaded. Neo didn't know, or didn't really care about why he was doing everything. He expected to go to the Oracle, ask her what to do, and get the easy way out. This is how people are wired - we look for leadership, for someone else to tell us what to do.
The machines were counting on this, and it worked all the way up to Neo finding his way to the Source. But after he talked to the Architect, he did something unexpected - he went back to the Matrix instead of choosing to start a new Zion as the previous Neos had done. He didn't do what the Architect suggested because he had Trinity, a variable that the machines weren't expecting and was a particular variation in this instance of the anomaly. Realize that by choosing to go back to the Matrix, Neo's essentially damned the Resistance to war or death since it won't be started again if the Sentinels can destroy Zion this time around.
Then again, it seems like the machines need Zion to exist in order to catch that 1% of humans who won't accept the Matrix. So perhaps it doesn't matter what Neo does. Hmm... 1984 ending anyone?
Methinks these layered Matrices that resemble an onion skin could be more of a kind of security system.
Overly philosophically speaking, it may be, that the machines have no possibility to really innovate. (Which is why they just copied the 20th century for the "inner" matrix...) It could be, that because they have no soul, they are unable to get ahead their creators, the humans. (Slightly shown by Morpheus, who told Neo, that he could beat them all because they are restricted by fundamental physics.)
So if the machines have no real chance of keeping the humans captured, IF these humans really want to escape. (Fitting in to the notion of the film, that everything is possible if we believe in it) the layers of the matrix are like a rendundant system. The humans can break out of every matrix if they just try hard enough, so it is only logical to implement a kind of fall-back-option for this 1% escapists. The "next" matrix seems like the real world to those and so you break their will to escape further, just because they think they've already done so. It gives you some time to catch these before they find out the "real" depth of the "rabbit hole".
If each matrix catches 99% of the population, you only need x matrices to catch all and to reduce escape probabilities to near-zero. Plus, it adds the ability to bend the outer matrices in case of an emergency or updates without touching the inner ones much like the layer models of our computer models. (Think of OSI-layers)
This was thought before in one of the famous StarTrek - Next Generation episodes called "Ship in a bottle" where the Enterprise crew creates a virtual Enterprise with a virtual holodeck within another virtual holodeck of another virtual Enterprise (all within the "real" holodeck of course) to fool Moriarty.
And it was reality some centuries ago when cities and castles were surrounded by walls. The biggest ones had multiple walls around them, one to slow attackers down and one to kill the slowed invaders down one by one. Rich castles had then multiple "walled cells" of space within the inner wall, so any attacker had to breach wall after wall to get to the kings chamber or water reservoir. If they did not forget to close the "Kerkaporta", they'd be safe...
In the fight in the playground, where Neo 1st meets the swarm of Agents Smiths, the texture mapping and bluring for the Smiths were just off. Also, their perspective when flying away after being hit by the pole was also lacking somehow.
I think they got the idea right in Star Wars with Yoda, you just can't properly animate CG at high speed.... not with todays rendering capabilities anyway.
Sometimes I wish I was a plumber, then I'd know how to deal with other people's shit.
Congratulations on figuring it out. Everyone I was talking to out of the movie theater didn't seem to get it. Anyway, I suspected that this was the case early in the film, but it was solidified when Neo was in the room with the architect, and it was showing pictures of Neo's life. One of the pictures was of Neo on the ship coming out of being plugged into the matrix... a picture that the architect shouldn't have had unless the "real world" was also part of the matrix. They could take the position that the Universe is simply a computer on a grand scale, but I imagine the "real world" is simply part of the Matrix, and both of which are machine controlled.
I agree. I realized that the world where Zion lives isn't real as soon as Agent Smith downloaded himself to it at the beginning.
Note: I was rather tired when I saw it last night, so forgive me if I'm way off. A few things:
- If you're referring the meeting when Agent Smith gave the note to Neo, I believe that was a virtual world, not "The" Matrix, but "A" Matrix.
- As for Neo stopping the Sentinel, I thought that they were actually stopped by an EPM from the ship that rescued them. I'm not so sure that the "real" world is another layer of the Matrix.
- Zion could have existed several times before. There's no reason why it had to be built in exactly the same location. In fact, given the size of the Earth, it would be highly unlikely they'd build anywhere near the previous Zions.
ich muß mehr Kuhglocke haben
Spoilers, etc.
William Gibson referred to cyberspace as a "consensual hallucination" -- millions of minds agreeing to see that which wasn't there. The Matrix has taken this to another level -- not only is the Matrix a hallucination, but the contents of the hallucination occur under the surface -- a summarization, agglomeration, and representation of the shared expectations of each observer. Can a spoon bend? Of course not, no spoon can bend. But if there is no spoon, then no spoon may bend -- the pathway is opened.
If we are shot, we die. If we attempt to jump a chasm, we will fall. If we fight the superhuman, we shall fall, for we are "Only Human". But it's beyond that. If we walk into a room, and somebody is in the room, we shall see them. If they drop a glass, it will break. If they start talking, we will hear them. The words they say will match the words we hear.
If we die in the Matrix, we die in the "real" world. If we die in the "real" world, we die in the Matrix. If you can't die, because somebody loves you, then there will be a way. There will be...hope.
How did Tank come back just in time to save Neo? All Cypher wanted to know was...did Trinity believe?
And she Did. (It's pretty clear the real world is another Matrix, a la the 13th floor. Sweet!)
The millions of rules, assertions, and consequences of Cyc become not merely descriptive, but prescriptive -- things happen because we have been convinced they already have, not the other way around.
Nowhere is this more clear than the experience of Persephone, the wife of a philandering man who wishes to experience one moment of true belief. The act is insufficient; the belief is key. "Kiss me as if I were her, expose me to a genuine truth rather than an intentionally manufactured lie." (As an interesting side note, much of love's courtship process can be thought of as a demonstration of addiction -- I _can't_ leave you, it would hurt me too much, I shall be forced to stay even through those times when others would offer something better in the short term.)
It is a peculiar testament to the power of Neo, to control his beliefs so powerfully, that's he's able to expose even that aspect of his self to sheer force of will -- because he believes it's necessary, and that if he does this deed, he will receive assistance. And so it is willed.
Science has, to some extent, been defined as the study of the observable. We may hold opinions, but we may only know what we could possibly see. But this is not the limit of human imagination...we envision realities that are implausible, fantastic, astonishing...
In the Matrix, if we believe hard enough, it becomes so. Vampires are simply another belief, made flesh by a shared architecture that only acts as people believe it must.
I have little respect for those who see the Matrix as little more than a slide show of explosions interspersed with mere yammering without a point. The most important aspect of the Matrix design is that no question is rhetorical; no answers already exist. The machines lie -- they're more than happy to imply that a decision has already been made, because once that belief takes hold, it is made real. The Oracle is astonishing -- she uses the trivialities of candy and a broken jar to to establish her power in the mind of Neo. She has no need to portray herself as a kindly old woman -- but this is precisely the form that Neo might believe to be trustworthy.
And, ironically enough, if he thinks hard enough that she'll tell him the truth, she may cease to have sufficient choice in the matter. Note all the times people tell Neo he doesn't truly understand, he's fast, but they're faster, the machine can peer into his soul and hear the thoughts he considers private. In a very interesting way, we were never given an incomplete view of the way the world worked; we were always given an incomplete view of the way the worl
I think the party/rave scene was also meant to bbe a primal expression of the utter humanity of Zion, a kind of defiant anti-machinism.
Liberal (adj.): Free from bigotry; open to progress; tolerant of others.
I realized that the world where Zion lives isn't real as soon as Agent Smith downloaded himself to it at the beginning.
Which means that the entire war between the men and the machines, the humans as batteries stuff, *all* the backstory set up in the first movie, may be fake. All of it. There may be another real story we're going to find out in the last one.
Good point. Reminds me of The Thirteenth Floor. A Computer Scientist creates a virtual world (into which he can download himself) only to find out in the end that the world he lives in is virtual as well.
I highly recommend everyone really watch the Animatrix episodes, particular, "The Second Renaissance" (2 parts). The insight it sheds on the relationship between humans and the machines is incredible and frightening. When you watch the second half, you will understand exactly what the humans are fighting for. Prepare to be disturbed.
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About 12 people reproducing into 250,000 people so quickly: yes this is possible. if each woman produced as many children as could be done healthily, say 10, you could do it in 4 new generations
I am not a biologist, but if you generated 250,000 descendants from the same twelve people, wouldn't you have rather severe genetic problems from inbreeding?
ASA
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Apologies for being off topic, but consider this.
Instead of having a point system for comment ratings, what if we had the ability to moderate to type. For example, instead of deducting points for being a troll or being off topic, just moderate (not unlike you do now) as troll, off topic, funny, insughtful, whatever. When a comment receives an acceptable number of moderations to a certain type, it becomes that type.
When you read slashdot with this system, you could then choose to read not by threashold, but by type. The default could be to read everything, or to read by everything except flamebait or troll, or whatever the editors want.
Hey slashdot editors, what do you think?
Be quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to anger.
The Architect scene was a mind-boggling scene. And the guy was obviously directed to talk fast and long and generally be confusing as hell (like God, haha)
The whole 'God vs. Devil' imagery in that scene was well done. "God," the Architect/Creator in all white, sitting in His chair, watching down from "heaven." Neo (the Devil) in all black, making a choice against "God," leaving a trail of flames.
Good stuff indeed. I'll be going back for more this weekend.
SPOILER SPOILER: I think your first criticism is ungrounded. No bearing on the plot? Smith obviously plays a huge role in the third film because he copied himself into the body of a "real" human, and has already had an effect on the plot by firing the EMP early and letting the machines win that battle. The fact that he can "copy" himself to "real" bodies is another hint -- perhaps the "real" world isn't quite as real as we thought. If Zion is indeed a matrix itself (a level of control the machines have over the 1% of people who don't "accept" the inner matrix), then Agent smith being able to copy himself out of the inner matrix is very interesting indeed. The are many hints at this, the most obvious being Neo's ability to "feel" the sentinels at the end.
You would be equally correct in assuming that the notion of a virtual reality world created and maintained by a computer-based intelligence reflects actual work done by artificial intelligence researchers. Which is to say, you wouldn't be correct at all.
[D]oes attending one or more philosophy classes always turn a person into an elitist asshole, or only some?
Well, curiously enough, it does make you think you know more about philosophy. I don't mean to be an "elitist asshole" here, but if you pick up even a short history of Western philosophy (e.g., the books by Kenny or Magee), you'll see that people have been thinking really hard about philosophical questions for a very long time, and that "The Matrix" doesn't address those questions in anything other than a superficial way. That's not to say that it's a bad film, or that popular films in general should entirely avoid addressing complicated subjects. (I don't know anything about medieval linguistics, but I thought it was pretty cool when the characters in "The Two Towers" started talking in subtitled Elvish.) But in the end, "The Matrix" is about philosophy to about the same extent that "Raiders Of The Lost Ark" is about archaeology, which is to say not very much at all.
I majored in philosophy and I can honestly say I didn't learn a damn thing in college. The university structure is in general stiffling to learning, but much moreso for philosophy. Many of the most important philosophers clearly articulated how teachers are a threat to knowledge. You can imagine how difficult it is to discuss such a subject in philosophy class.
Most philosophy professors are also way out there, completely detached from reality. Since philosophy is primarily about life, most of these people just didn't seem to get it. They either were obsessed with the academic favorites (Descartes, Marx, Kant) or with the new ethical philosophers (peter singer, animal rights). I always leaned much more towards Plato, Aristotle, and Nietzsche but I had to read most of their works on my own time.
University study of philosophy CAN make people elitist however, because certain works by certain philosophers are simply too complex to study without devoting months of your time. Kant's Critique of Pure Reason is a behemoth, Marx's Das Capital has still never been completely read by any man alive today. Both books are bigger than all of Plato's writings combined. Das Capital is easily longer than all of Nietzsche's writings combined.
In most cases, I don't believe a man's self esteem will allow him to read a book for a year and say afterwards "That was a load of crap". They inherently begin to believe what they are reading not only has value, but only someone who spends their life reading it can understand it.
Anyway, that is a rambling theory...
I don't read or respond to AC posts
I don't blame you at all for being annoyed about Matrix fan-worship...I agree with you, and your point was already clear. My question was rhetorical, but benzapp submitted a thought-provoking response...maybe I only think it's thought provoking because I haven't read Plato and I'm a pus-nuts dumbshit? It's not your opinion that makes you elitist, it's your attitude, and your choice of words that makes you ass.
You would be equally correct in assuming that the notion of a virtual reality world created and maintained by a computer-based intelligence reflects actual work done by artificial intelligence researchers. Which is to say, you wouldn't be correct at all.
... these people are walking into a story about a place where reality is a construct and led to think about it.
:)
Basic questions about "What is real?" which form one backdrop of the matrix, are much, much older. Oracular paradoxes -- "What's really going to bake your noodle later is if you would have done it if I hadn't have said anything" -- are part of greek mythology. "Know thyself" -- beleive it's on a plaque on the wall in the Oracle's house. Then there's the whole "on one hand... on the other hand..." thing, which I was assured by a philosophy major friend is very greek. I think it's safe to say there are nods/borrowings from real philosophical traditions.
Well, curiously enough, it does make you think you know more about philosophy. I don't mean to be an "elitist asshole" here, but if you pick up even a short history of Western philosophy (e.g., the books by Kenny or Magee), you'll see that people have been thinking really hard about philosophical questions for a very long time, and that "The Matrix" doesn't address those questions in anything other than a superficial way.
But curiously enough, the same philosophy major friend I mentioned above -- who could digest continental philosophers, which I've always found completely obtuse -- actually found a fair bit of pleasure in the above touches/nods to philosophy, despite the fact that they weren't necessarily complete treatments.
But in the end, "The Matrix" is about philosophy to about the same extent that "Raiders Of The Lost Ark" is about archaeology, which is to say not very much at all.
And yet the interesting thing is, if you pay attention, you can actually pick up a thing or two about actual history. Neither is a formal treatment of the subject matter they use as a vehicle, it's a story. But story, in turn, can be an effective vehicle for an awful lot of good things. Including basic questions about what is real. Thousands if not millions of people who would have looked at you like you were in need of some time with a mental health professional if you were to talk about brains in jars and evil demons and shadows on the wall
Of course, that's the frustrating part. Where someone encounters knowledge you've had for a while, well-treaded ground, and they think it's sacred and deep. But the longer you go through this world, the more that experience becomes commonplace, so it's good to learn to handle it gracefully.
Tweet, tweet.
During that scene, did anyone else start to think of Morpheus as Stilgar? Trinity as Chani? Zion as Sietch Tabr? Neo as Mua'dib?
Three things:
First, I was far from the first person to laugh, yell, crap, or shout comments, and the audience was having a good time.
Second, their was a loud roar of laughter and approving comments from the wide majority of viewers around me, 99% of which were teenage boys.
Third, I'm not exactly scrawny. You may have disapproved, but I'm reasonably certain that you would not have "roundly kicked [my] hind end."
If I were in a deathly silent theater where everyone was really into the movie and not the surrounding experience, I would've been as absorbed as everyone else. I wasn't, and I wasn't.
Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
I disagree strongly. Certanly Neo gets his amazing kung-fu skills, he gets to fly about and his spider-sence in the matrix, but ultimatly it gets him nothing. Using all his powers, during the entire film he has achieved NOTHING, save for surviving a fight or saving a friend. He hasn't even killed a single agent. In fact everything his did, save for last 5 minutes of the movie, is perfectly in line with what the machines expected and allowed him to do. The only thing that will bring him power is the understanding of the choices he must make. In essence his must out-smart the machine who created the Matrix. In that is the risk and the challange of the movie and not in meaningless, but very entertaining, fights.
"Well, curiously enough, it does make you think you know more about philosophy. I don't mean to be an "elitist asshole" here, but if you pick up even a short history of Western philosophy (e.g., the books by Kenny or Magee)"
You know, I think I'd rather pick up "The Matrix". I don't think even you would be interested in a movie version of any particular history of Western philosophy. (Unless there's a good nude scene with Wollstonecraft of course...)
But really, I think the "elitist asshole" thing comes from your looking down on people who dare to discuss philosophy in a context ("The Matrix") that a lot of other people are familiar with. I think you've spent a lot of time studying the subject, and don't want to admit to yourself that the time was wasted because there aren't really any answers, and the questions can be fairly clearly presented, even to lay people, by a movie that spends most of its time on Kung-Fu.
Philosophy is a whole bunch of speculating about answerless questions. Anyone can do it. Some people don't like that, so they pretend the important part is not the speculation, but familiarity with the speculations of others. Which turns things on it's head. Rather than responding to someones mention of Plato's cave by saying "No, no, this Descartes quotation is more on point", a good philosopher should be able talk about the ideas in "The Matrix" intelligently.
So:
Descartes is more on point because he imagined being deceived by a malevolent entity rather than by the nature of perception itself. e.g. Even if you assume you are capable of perceiveing reality, you cannot be sure you actually are. This is an interesting idea, which you can think about for as long as you want, and even write big, hard to understand books about (despite the fact that it's not very hard to understand), but eventually you should get on with your life, because unless someone offers you the red and blue pills, it just doesn't matter.
I read the Descartes a long while ago now, so perhaps you can point out some other interesting ideas of his. If you can cast the relevant thought experiments in Matrix terms, I'll think you might have promise as a philosopher. If you insist they can only be grasped by someone who has studied the original Descartes, I'll think your an elitist asshole. (And then I'll point out that you undoubtably read it in translation, which really isn't acceptable if you expect me to deign to discuss it with you...)
Was the kiss so pointless? The kiss is the key to the whole story else...Bellucci would not be in the third movie. This KISS is what set Neo on his way to either breaking free of the "second level" matrix or induced his brain to somehow channel/feel the sentinels in the "real world." Everything is sealed with a kiss....this movie takes heavily from Scripture and Jesus' fate was sealed with a kiss. In this film...it began Neo's true awakening...
I'm sorry that sex, mostly tastefully done i think was a disturbance to you, but it was an R rated movie...and since violence no longer matters (anyone notice Wolverine's kill count in X2? and that was PG-13)- the Matrix series is by no means lighter on violence than others.
Mind you, I was perplexed when the future became Rave nation party central- but I understand it thematically. The preceding speech by Morpheus emphasized the fact that Zion was about being human, and the joy of life. Now, they could've had happy people holding hands, but instead they show an orgy of people ecstatic intercut with Neo and Trinity. Its humanity in more primal aspect- but clean and natural. These are two people in love making love, the phsyciality of enjoying life that no machine can ever mimic, even if it manages to mimic impulses. you missed the bit with chocolate, but that could be more about the basic impulses that programs can influence, but not control.
T&A? Sure, but that reaction has more to do with movie prudishness with nudity (and the assumption that naked means humping on the ground)- in women in general and god forbid men.
There was a time when sex was still considered a sacred act, and not dirty. It is a temple that they dance in after all. There is a difference sexuality as sensuality and sexuality as something that amounts to pronography. I take the former as the intent... Salon has a pretty good review with this take on it.
I don't think they pulled all this off, but I do think the W bros intended the movie as more than sensationalism and spectacle. I do distinctly prefer this to juvenile takes on sexuality.
Get off your high horse, buddy. It gets awfully lonely up there after a while.
I posted these things before, and as much as I love karma, I'm doing it again 'cause I'm genuinely interested if anyone had this take:
I think its strange in a movie with so many takes at the fallibility of perception and versimilitude that people don't take seriously the possiblity that Neo has gained powers outside the Matrix, and insist that what he emerges in must be a second matrix. If he is the 6th iteration of an anomaly that gets stranger every time, why not? (I do take the 6 as a reference to the Mayan world epoch calender, any version number will do honestly). He has a connection to Agent Smith- another anomalous intelligence (artificial or otherwise) with insight to the system as a whole.
If we grudgenly accept the human as batteries thing, why can't Neo take his connection to machines wireless in the "real" world? Part of him still jacked into the matrix and therefore the system, and therefore the machines. Before you know it he can take them over...
Agent Smith can just as easily take over someone by taking over their code- the brain wiring. People are jacked in as brains, not bodies. When he envelopes the person in the matrix, he's refashioning their entire minds to fit his own. And when they wake up, they're agent smith. He should theoretically be disoriented in non-matrix real world, but if he maintains a kind of hive consciouness trhough a connect to the system (which he senses better than Neo, per their covnersations- a connection Smith acknowledges but Neo just likes to answer "I know" to everything. I don't think he does know.) perhaps he copes together as a Hive mind.
Considering the prophecy notions- taking the Melvigian (sp?) take on human behavior as pure human impulse through causality- you'd figure a lot of what anyone is planning ought to be able to be statistically predicted by the an architect, or any massive computer. Esp. if- more than being programs, as the Archtiect mentioned, even your checmical reactions in the body (DNA as source code) could be influenced. Its a fundamental paradox in the idea of an all-knowing Creator/God. What's the difference between an ineffable plan and predestination. And if there is a plan, which will always play out since God is an expert-what is the pt?
How it all pans out- choice vs. being controlled, is up to a personal view or the W bros. Considering the they're alive hopefulness of the Morpheus speeechs, I lean away from the Matrix within a Matrix/ Prisoner "Who is number one" take - though I admit its possibly. I just don't feel they'ed end it with a box inside a box endless loop of questioning.
neo is the first fully unpredictable person who manipulates the choices as well as the architect program. The no-win of the two doors turned into a win- or delay fo the endgame in the "real world."
You actually do sound elitist. I can appreciate the works of Kant, Descartes or Pascal, yet I still think the Matrix (the first movie) was brilliant in depicting a fundamental phylosophical problem. But you, you don't even support your dismissal with arguments, just spout off like, well, an elitist asshole.
Sigged!
Speaking of which, the only thing that takes away from Reloaded in my opinion is the orgy scene, if I may call it that. I think it was much too long and allowed to much attention to be diverted away from Neo and Trinity. That scene needed to focus on those two and leave most (if not all) of the rest of it out and been about three minutes shorter. Let Neo and Trinity have their moment, let Neo have his dream, and get it over with... I could tell upon first viewing that I would probably be skipping that scene when I watch it on DVD months down the road.
Otherwise, the movie absolutely kicked ass. The Agent Smith teaser footage from the trailers was only the tip of the iceberg, and... well, it's a modern epic, bypassing the classic medium (literature) and jumping onto the big screen. I wouldn't compare the Wachowskis to Homer, Dante, or even Tolkien (not much, anyway), but they've put together quite a masterpiece for our time.
Great movie. 9.7/10.
(The Matrix still gets a perfect 10; Reloaded loses fractions of a point for the orgy scene and for slight cheesiness and predictability -- nothing to worry about. This movie rocked, and only Lord of the Rings films, Office Space, The Shawshank Redemption, and American Beauty otherwise get 9's on my scale...)
"That's not an unreasonable argument. Ludwig Wittgenstein wrote a book called "On Certainty" making a very similar argument against Cartesian philosophy. You might like to read it; it's probably at your local Barnes & Noble."
See, this is my point. I have read it. It's boring as hell, and it doesn't add anything to the response to Descartes I though of right off the bat.
"You might also like to read what other people have had to say about in response to that argument, or about what the implications of that argument might be. But I don't think 'The Matrix', entertaining as it is, moves the discussion forward at all."
Or I might want to think for myself. I don't think "The Matrix" moves the discussion forward amonst people who are already familiar with the ideas, but it certainly does amongst those who aren't. And I don't think being familiar with twenty peoples writings about each others writings moves anything forward for anyone. It just lets you think you look smart while you actually look like an elitist asshole. I too took a bunch of philosophy in college, until I decided it was fun, but basically pointless. I can sum up what you'll learn from Descarte, Wittgenstein, and the whole philosophy of mind bunch in a quick Socratic dialog:
"You know, you can't really know anything, because even when you're sure, you can't be sure you're sure."
"What the fuck are you talking about?"
"Well, when you think you know something, it's only because you think you know about knowing things, but you could be wrong about the whole deal."
"Okay, I can see that. What's the point?"
"Uh, nothing really, but it's kind of weird."
"Yeah I guess. Listen, I gotta go..."
"But wait! Kripke's reformulation of Wittgensteins third assertion has significant impact on the challenge of the neo-Cartesian... Well, you're probably not familiar with Kripke, are you?" <now he thinks I'm smart>
"No, not really." <elitist asshole>
But you have to incorporate all the crap from the Oracle and the French guy. "Choice is an illusion created by those in power for those without." (or whatever). Accepting that concept, means that Neo didn't really have a choice of doors, he was expected to choose one of them, while believing that he had a choice. Not having a choice made the humans wake up from the Matrix, so they created scenarios in which the humans believed they had a choice, when really they always did what they were expected to do.
By Neo making the choice that was unexpected of him, he rejects the scenario that was placed before him, and thereby starts to "wake up" from the Matrix even more.... and ends up realizing that the "real world" (the world of Zion and eating oatmeal, etc.) is actually another Matrix. What everyone thinks of as "The Matrix" is actually a Matrix within a Matrix, which is why once Neo 'wakes up' a second time, he can start to use his powers in "the real world" too.
The same programming flaws that allowed the 1% of people to 'wake up' and reject the First Matrix, would also allow 1% of THOSE people to eventually wake up and reject the Second Matrix. Which is why every 100 years the robots come in and wipe out everyone in Zion, to keep the chances of that 1% of 1% from growing to a whole number. Only this time, the "Messiah" was stronger than they had allowed for...
If Neo had chosen the other door, he would not have destroyed "The Matrix", he would have only destroyed the First Matrix, and believing he had done so, would have started Zion again believing that it was "the real world", and not tried to "wake up" any more. The architect told him that the machines would continue to survive even if he chose to destroy the Matrix ("we are prepared to accept some level of" existence(?)), so it could have been a reasonable ploy to convince the descendents of those 23 people that the machines were still alive and came back to capture them and put them back in the Matrix, or something.
Sometimes the best solution to morale problems is just to fire all the unhappy people.
--LOL; I agree that IPV6 is largely overcomplex and unnecessary, but here's some food for thought: it's a 10-series Class A network - which means it's INTERNAL. You don't need IPV6 for internal LANs. ;-)
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== WolfriderV6 == I'm willing to admit that *I just might* be wrong... Are you??
The architect says that after Neo finishes, he will then pick 23 people (23 right?) to be the next round of hopefuls (potential Neos) when the Matrix is reset for another iteration. This is simply evolution. The only way man can create the next form of life is to evolve it. Many programs try to solve the problem, the one that best solves it will become part of the next generation, and I'm assuming he would pass on some part of himself to every one of them (probably all of his evolved code and memory).
It makes you ask, "well, if the Matrix were only a big simulation meant to evolve a free thinking intelligence, then why the elaborate story of the war and zion and all the human stuff? Why not use some abstract simulation that could go exponentially beyond what humans can imagine?" The answer is that the (human) creators want their new life form to be created in their own image. They had to create a complete mirror of human life so that human emotions such as love could evolve.
The best way for them to evolve free thinking was to create the most intense human experience of choice possible. One where the decision is impossible - a no-win situation like that presented by the 2 doors in the architect's room. He picks one door to save Trinity and damn human kind, or picks another to fulfill his role as "the one" to save humanity.
Every "human" in the matrix is a program. They were programmed to see hear and feel everything as a human. But only a small percentage are able to evolve beyond the first matrix, because they "knew their whole life that something was not right". They go on to the "war for Zion" matrix to see who makes it beyond that test. Then the one that makes it to the "architect's choice" will either seed the next round of evolution, or, as I hope we will see in Revolutions, will be the breakthrough that achieves conscious free will (because he CHOSE the door back to Trinity, instead of following the predetermined scenario).
By the end of the Revolutions, I think that Neo will "awaken" and realize that he is a program, and he will understand that he has just become truly conscious because he is no longer following the path that was laid out for him in the matrix. Hopefully, he will communicate with God (being the Humans that created him). This will be both a very humbling experience and a very intense one (whatever the opposite of humbling is), to find out that he is not "the one" to save the human race, but is "the one" beginning of a new form of life created by humans.
1) Turn off ship.
2) Fire EMP based on systems that aren't needed after the EMP gets fired.
3) Turn ship back on.
4) Pick up crew of Nebuchadnezzar.
5) ???
6) Profit!!!!!!
The world can be wrong today for once.