Gentoo Reviewed

An anonymous reader writes "Nick Petreley over at LinuxWorld.com gives the uninitiated an excellent view of what the world of Gentoo is like."

Comments

I loved Gentoo

[A Proud American]

Granted, I can't tinker with Linux at work anymore (based on NDA/contract stuff), but I really enjoyed the opportunity to truly learn Linux with Gentoo rather than have my hand held like Mandrake does.

If you're going to spend the time and effort to deal with Linux and try to learn it, you might as well go all-out rather than just learning how to install it.

I personally recommend Debian or Gentoo if you want to learn more about operating systems, and I recommended Mandrake if you just want to use Linux (for price reasons or philosophical reasons).

Gentoo is great, but make sure it's the right flavor of Linux for you. I miss Gentoo some days when I'm stuck in Windows with another blue screen.

Linux is just plain fun. Sure, it's not great if you need to get a lot of work done, but it's an amazing teaching tool if you want to truly learn computers.

Linux is great.

Re:amazingly, the world of gentoo

[HBI]

The docs are just fine for getting the job done. Your grandmother won't be able to use Gentoo, but she shouldn't be, either.

The step by step install docs are easily ten times more understandable than my first install of Slackware back in 1994. I have yet to see any *BSD install docs that rise to that level.

Chaotic? Hardly. Get something like Kportage (there are GNOME manager applications too) and it makes a lot of sense and is easy to throw in new ebuilds which work out of the box, and run well since they are compiled for your arch. It's pretty nice to have multiple versions available of different libraries and applications, which will auto-update based on emerge -u world.

If you hate the GPL that's your own religious issue.

Gentoo advocates drive me nuts

[Anonymous Coward]

In my experience I've found that there exists no Linux problem so small or trivial that someone won't come along and recommend changing your distribution as a "fix".

Why I like gentoo..

[windows]

I'm one of those people who insists on compiling everything myself and not using packages. I do this because I like to have some control over what options are used when compiling and that everything is optimized to run on my machine.

Unfortunately, there's no consistent way to cleanly remove things that I compile. And keeping track of the dependencies is next to impossible to do. I don't like to clutter up my directories with files and directories that aren't needed anymore.

I'm a big fan of the ports collection in any BSD because it solves both of those problems. Everything is compiled on my machine and later it's simple to cleanly remove stuff I'm no longer using.

Gentoo also has a ports collection, which is why I chose it over other Linux distros. Debian is quite nice but I have yet to find a way to use some packages from stable, some from testing, and some from unstable, while still having everything getting along. I like almost everything else about Debian, but that's what frustrates me about it, and why I give Gentoo the nod.

It would be nice, however, to have a more automated install process in Gentoo. I'd like to be able to choose being doing it myself and starting from any stage, or being able to use an automated install program like other distros have. I'm not asking for a lot, but just something as simple as Slackware's install program would be a nice touch.

That being said, I use Gentoo, and I like it a lot. :)

Re:Why I like gentoo..

[KrispyKringle]

"I'm one of those people who insists on compiling everything myself and not using packages. I do this because I like to have some control over what options are used when compiling and that everything is optimized to run on my machine."

Aside from the fact that many big packages (kernel, X11, etc) are available in CPU-optimized versions (i.e. i686, etc), I'm sure the time you spend modifying compile-time optimization flags is quickly regained by the milliseconds faster in which your computer runs.

"Unfortunately, there's no consistent way to cleanly remove things that I compile."

If I'm not mistaken, the SRPM or deb-src style packages both do this. Personally, I save my time and use precompiled binaries.

"I'm a big fan of the ports collection in BSD because it solves both of those problems."

Me, too.

"...I have yet to find a way to use some packages from stable, some from testing, and some from unstable..."

Try adding specific modifications to your /etc/apt/sources.list file, or simply download the .debs and use dpkg to install.

As you can probably tell, I'm a bit Debian-biased, but here are my main concerns with Gentoo:

Compiling from source: Nice, if you want it, but a pain if you don't. While some distros (FreeBSD, Debian, and RedHat, for example) give you the option, Gentoo has no alternatives. And while it may not take a lot of time to compile the gaim source, I just don't care that much about having a few CPU-optimzations in there when I'm chatting online.

Installation: Hell, the Debian installation is nothing pretty, but I haven't heard much good about Gentoo's, either. At least Debian has various derivatives, like Knoppix or Librenix, which can ease the pain.

Speed of updates: This is the biggest issue, by far, with a package-based update system--how fast security updates make it into the package tree. Debian has some issues with this still, compared to the commercial distros like RH, but my perception while reading bugtraq is that Debian tends to beat Gentoo. Gentoo just doesn't have the community and developer base Debian does.

Of course, to each his own, and as long as you are happy, stick with it. I've heard good things about Gentoo and may have to give it a try sometime soon, but until I see some feature I just can't live without, I'll stick with Debian.

Re:Why I like gentoo..

[KrispyKringle]

Hmm, I wasn't aware that RPMs worked with Gentoo. While they still aren't as good as DEBs, there's more of them (assuming Gentoo can use RPMs for all distros equally well).

In response to my "phenomenally stupid argument," well, this really isn't how we like to carry on civil discourse, you know? I can take criticism just fine, but some people might consider something like that an insult, and, hell, might even be annoyed or offended by it. Just a thought.

I don't see anything stupid about the argument, though. People who like to claim they have faster computers or are really elite because they compile themselves often don't know what they're talking about. As I stated before, sure, you will find some optimizations for your kernel or other large, CPU-intensive applications. I make sure to compile my kernel from scratch whenever I install a new system. But doing this for most applications just doesn't make sense. Take my example with gaim. What payoff is there, at even 5%? Could you run gaim, or Mozilla, or any number of simple command line applications like Pine or mutt any faster if you compiled them from source? Is that really the issue? I don't think so.

And while no single one of these applications should take an extraordinary time compiling from source, the added time adds up; the Gentoo installation is, from all accounts, far lengthier than it should be, is, in fact, far lengthier than even the most fertile stallion should be having sex, as you suggest.

This post shows that some people have arguments based on logic and what's best for their needs, and some are just fans for the sake of being fans. As I said, use whatever you like, but just because your distro makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside doesn't mean it does that for everyone. I'd never get as angry as you clearly did if someone insulted my distro of choice. Debian works for me, but may not be right for everyone. I use it on my workstation for the reasons I specified above, but I use other OSes where need be. Hell, I even suggest RedHat to people new to Linux; the installation is just that much better. I'm perfectly willing to admit Debian isn't best for everyone, and even that Gentoo has its advantages. There's a clear line between academic discussion and mindless zealotry. Make sure you don't cross it.

Gentoo Topic Icon

[zerOnIne]

I'd say it's about time for a Gentoo topic icon. We've been seeing a fair bit of press about this distribution lately (on here anyway). It has a very active developer and user community, and doesn't seem to be going away any time soon. I mean, if we've got a bunch of different icons for other distributions (including a bunch that no longer exist), why not Gentoo? For fairness, I'm still a Debian user, but I think they deserve a fair shake here now.

Re:Gentoo Topic Icon

[the_real_tigga]

noooo.

I am a big fan, but the gentoo logo is just plain ugly. Larry the Cow is a bit better, but still no beauty.

Re:amazingly, the world of gentoo

[pillohead]

I have yet to see any *BSD install docs that rise to that level.

Have you even seen the freebsd handbook? That's one of FreeBSD's greatest strengths, its solid documentation.

Re:My experiences with Gentoo

[Anonymous Coward]

iptables and samba? dude, what a lame excuse for config tools :-))

for iptables get something like fwbuilder and stop bitching - the generated rules usually suck anyway (for rh especially, no flexibility there).

and samba??? why would you edit config files? samba-swat, or even webmin will do just fine - and with webmin you're quite off the 'edit-configs' hook for most stuff.

get an education first, get gentoo after that :-D

Re:And now, a translation...

[the_real_tigga]

I don't think a sysadmin in the world could fuck that up.

You, Sir, are an optimist.

Re:amazingly, the world of gentoo

[Anonymous Coward]

... work out of the box, and run well since they are compiled for your arch.

Bahaha, and the myth of Gentoo continues.

I've done solid benchmarking that shows relatively no performance improvement by compiling everything yourself (sure, there's a tiny performance boost for the rare application, but it's not noticable). Everyone who has taken the time to run my benchmarks and compare their specially compiled stuff to off the shelf Debian quickly realises that there is no difference. Any difference they noticed is pretty much the placebo effect.

And you seem to hint at more stability because you compiled it yourself? WTF? It's the same code base.

Re:And now, a translation...

[Gojira Shipi-Taro]

Just as an FYI, the post you responded to is a trollpost that has found its way into every Gentoo thread I've seen for the last month or so. I'm thinking Gentoo makes someone feel "inadequate" and he just has to share with us...

Custom Compilation Issues?

[krmt]

Around Christmas, there was a big thread on the Debian-devel mailing list titled "Are we losing users to Gentoo?". I went back and re-read it last night, and I came across an interesting point. Debian developers were toying with the idea of officially supporting custom compilation options in the various package building tools out there (apt-src, apt-build). One point that came up was that when you're trying to build a stable software platform, you've got to be able to debug. In order to do so, you've got to have reproducible bugs. With all the custom compilation options, how can you hope to reproduce the bugs if everyone is customizing the hell out of their binaries? I see a lot of posts about how great emerge is, but my question to the gentoo users out there is how often do you actually use custom options on your compilations? Do you really pass a lot of specific flags to different compilations, or do you just do a ton of generic emerge's? I can't help but wonder if a lot of the people who say gentoo is really stable just aren't using that much of the real customization options that it offers over apt.

I actually tried to scan the bugzilla database for gentoo last night too, to see if this kind of effect would be prevelant, but I don't know bugzilla well enough to really look through it. Do bugs like this pop up, and if so, do they usually get resolved?

Gentoo vs. Debian

[krmt]

I see gentoo as being very fast moving right now, and still small compared to Debian. Once they reach the peak of their growth curve as Debian seems to have, they're going to run in to the same sorts of problems that Debian has had to face.

Debian spends a lot of time making incremental improvements to the distro. Find bugs and fix them, move on. Find more bugs and fix them. Rewrite the installer because it's buggy. Rework the package classification system because it's gotten unwieldy. These are exciting things that are going on in Debian that might not be innovative or exciting enough for Larry the Cow, but then again, real innovation requires a lot of unglamorous grunt work.

It'll also be interesting to see if the userbase for gentoo remains as friendly as they are reputed to be. Most small projects are friendly because everyone is of like mind, but once it grows beyond a certain bounds, things can get tense. Debian has, unfortunately, suffered from this, although it varies. The debian-user mailing list tends to be very friendly and useful, and the IRC channel can be as well, depending on who is in it at the time. I honestly hope having gentoo get some of the spotlight from Debian will cause some positive change in Debian. Gentoo obviously was heavily inspired by Debian (Social Contract) and it'll be interesting to see how both distros influence each other as they develop.

I'm hoping we wind up with plenty of killer geek distros personally, and I hope I'm not the only one.