Do Online Schools Provide A Quality Education?

An anonymous reader asks: "I am attending an online college for the first time and I am starting to get a bad taste in my mouth about the amount of effort that some of my professors are putting forward in my courses. I feel like some of them are 'skating' and all I am paying for is a book, a posted syllabus, and a final exam. Have any of you been to an online school, and what where your experiences like? How did you feel about the quality of education you were getting?" Corrected the charset errors, that appeared in this article. Thanks to all who pointed this out.

"After the dot com 'boom' settled down a bit, and I was no longer required to work 80 hrs a week, I decided that after ten years of being absent I would go back to school and finish up that elusive CS degree. Well, after shopping around a bit I found a very good, well known, University that was offering the degree, online.

'Cool,' I thought, no classes, all on my schedule, save gas, and I could work at 2 am if I wanted. I thought I had found the perfect way to learn.

BUT, after just one semester, I am starting to have my doubts. I am sure this is the way to go in the future, but I'm not so sure that the schools has got all the kinks worked out and I am beginning to believe that the professors, and possible even the schools, see this as a way for them to teach a class with a minimal amount of effort and cost.

You basically have a public conference area (a web based discussion group for comments) that you, the other students, and the professors participate in. This works very well because your assignments are given out on a weekly basis and you have a whole week to post comments and complete your assignments. You are required to participate in the discussions and then post your answers to quizzes in a private portfolio where it is graded by the professor and then returned to you.

Most of the professors participate in the conference like you are in a real classroom; with student asking questions and the professor responding, though, it is not real time.

But some of the professors only want you to post to the public discussion groups and never have you post to the private portfolio, basically this means they don't have to do anything accept scan the conferences and give out more assignments. They don't have to look over your work and give you any feedback. I bet it takes less than an hour a week to do this. Also, this allows other students to see the answers and just repost them.

The only thing this person seems to be doing is sitting on his butt all week; telling the students to just follow the syllabus for reading; and occasionally surfing the discussions groups to see who is there. That sounds like a very good deal for them, but I am not getting much out of this.

I also feel that ALL of the professors are very behind-the-times when it comes to IT. Just today I had a professor tell me she would not allow me to post a PDF file to my portfolio because she was worried about getting a virus when she read it?!

A few questions come to mind: Is this a quality education? Should the professors be required to show what they have done because they don't have a real classroom to attend? How much effort should a professor put forth for an online class? This has always been an issue in a real classroom, but now we have a whole new twist. Shouldn't professors be required to be a little more techno savvy before they give a course like this? Shouldn't the schools be reevaluating the 'new teaching style' and making some adjustments?

I am so angry with the way the school has set this up I will probably return to a normal class environment here at a local college, at least I know the guy is going to show up!

Has anybody else been to an online college? What were your experiences?"

Comments

Is this your first college experience?

[czardonic]

I am starting to get a bad taste in my mouth about the amount of effort that some of my professors are putting forward in my courses. I feel like some of them are "skating" and all I am paying for is a book, a posted syllabus, and a final exam.

Sounds like they are providing a pretty darn authentic college experience.

Education is what you make of it.

Re:Is this your first college experience?

[sasami]

Although teacher feedback is important, teachers' effort and participation in your education is almost unnecessary.

Utterly untrue. Are you asserting that if you took a class with an interested and involved professor, that you would gain zero benefit over the same class taught by an apathetic jerk of otherwise equal qualifications?

All evidence points to the contrary. Graduates of small, high-quality, close-knit colleges outperform graduates of large, impersonal universities in almost all fields including science and engineering. What's more, these small colleges are usually less selective than the big prestige schools, taking B or C high-school students and turning out top performers. In other words, a good education doesn't just teach you stuff, it should literally make you smarter. If all you got out of school was that the book is your "teacher," then your tuition was little more than an expensive library card.

It sounds like this worked out very well for you, but that's merely making the best out of a bad situation. Your thoughtful advice should be heeded only by people who attend a school where professors won't -- or can't -- contribute to the improvement of their students. (This includes every online school I know of, although I would love to know if there are any exceptions.)

--
Dum de dum.

Well said...

[ath0mic]

I am starting to get a bad taste in my mouth about the amount of effort that some of my professors are putting forward in my courses. I feel like some of them are "skating" and all I am paying for is a book, a posted syllabus, and a final exam.

I feel that way about my profs. and I don't go to an online school.

Re:Well said...

[swb]

Many meat-space classes are no different than online classes in terms of interaction with the class and instructors. Little or none usually, unless the class is small (less than 40) or breaks down into sessions (lectures MWF, small groups TuTh, which are usually TA led).

I had very few undergrad classes where there was actual classroom interaction with an actual professor and other students (like less than 5), because most had at least 50-75 students.

I don't knock the TA led small groups or even small classes, because often the TAs are more current on the material being taught than the profs can be, especially when its more basic undergrad stuff.

The thing online classes can never have, IMHO, though is the magic that can take place when a talented professor lectures. Not only do you learn stuff, but they can make even tedious sounding material come alive ("Germany During the Reformation"). Reading books and doing online busywork can't compare.

Re:Well said...

[Jack Greenbaum]

I had very few undergrad classes where there was actual classroom interaction with an actual professor and other students (like less than 5), because most had at least 50-75 students.

In my experience this isn't always the professors fault.

I spent waaaay to many years in school (now a decade past) on both sides of the podium, including a teaching award nomination from the faculty senate. The longer I was in school the more surprised I became at the lack of interaction from the undergrads. In most undergrad classes (those I taught, TA'd, or took for credit) 90% of the questions were asked by 1% of the students. Not surprisingly these were the A/A+ students.

Maybe it is just my personality, and that personality fits well with a University education, but if I have a question I ask regardless of the size of the class. That's what the front rows were made for. While some professors revel in making students squirm, and some are so shocked by even getting a question that it takes them a while to answer, the majority are very pleased to have interaction and quickly recognize who the questions are coming from. When an exam is graded (or a dispute arises on a TA graded exam) a professor is much more likely to give an interactive, engaged, student the benefit of the doubt.

So speak up in class!

BTW: Others have mentioned networking as an important part of a college education. It so happens that I am currently employed at a start-up founded by professors who I took classes from as an undergrad and graduate student. They knew me by the name on my resume even seven years after my grad degree because I was interactive in their classes. Keep that in mind when being shy about asking a question because you think it might be stupid, because your paycheck may some day come from that prof!

-- Jack

Just like real school!

[mekkab]

The only thing this person seems to be doing is sitting on his butt all week; telling the students to just follow the syllabus for reading; and occasionally surfing the discussions groups to see who is there. That sounds like a very good deal for them, but I am not getting much out of this.


Yup, that sounds like pretty much every professor I had! Infact, there was one "intro to unix class" where the guy just printed off MAN pages right before class and used those to "teach"!
Couple that with people who have TAs do the grading, and the fact that at research oriented uni's (like mine) the professor is busy trying to get grants, screw the kids!

A lot of university classes are like that- and in those cases you are either paying for a "name" university, or you are paying less for a non-name uni.

Now I just finished my masters from the Part Time Engineering program and I had some friends take the same classes but the on-line versions: its a mixed bag.
If the professor has a set of slides that they teach from and they are top-nothc quality, then you don't even need to go to class! (this was true in undergrad for my CIRCUITS course- the text book blew, but his bound class notes were INCREDIBLE. start studying 6 hours before the final, walk out with an A)

So I'm sorry your professors stink. Its the SAME in person.

not face to face is not education, its research

[visionsofmcskill]

You may as well be in a library reading the books on yur own... your simply spending your time paying bucks to get a "degree". Education is supposed to be a much more immersive experience, in which your entire world is focused upon whatever subjects your learning for certain spans of time. From the chalk-board to the many students to the profesor and all the hands on materials along with real hands on lab projects you can show to your fellow classmates and teachers in TRUE real-time.

When your simply posting and returning data from a web-page, and reading material be it online or off... you are not recieving an education, you are paying for the right to research and to attain a degree from it.

There are reasons why test taking is done in a class without access to the net and other such things. It is because you are supposed to test the actual mind and skills of a human without those resources at hand. This enables you to learn what you DONT know and to sharpen those skillsets.

Hence online education is kinda a joke. Ilearned a long time ago, i can learn anything i want without a piece of paper that says i did. So if your gonna go to school... make sure you go to the one with the biggest name.... cause thats all that matters in the end, youll learn what you want to know no matter what.

I don't know

[_avs_007]

The wife is taking UnivOfPhoenix, and I think some of the classes are laid out rediculously. I think too much time is spent "doing" things, and no time is spent actually learning anything.

For example, they have these teams "collobarate" to write a paper. The team lead, gets to write the introduction, each person gets a specific section in the body, and another poor sap gets the conclusion. What a stupid way to write a paper. The team lead is on easy streat writing a one paragraph into, each person writes something so so so so specific, as to not learn/grasp anything, or even learn how to structure an essay, and the schmuch who got stuck with the conclusion, ends up spending hours trying to cohesively tie everything together. In the end, you wind up with a paper that is poorly written, has no logical flow, etc etc. I'm all for group projects, but it seems they like to work in groups for things that don't need to be worked on in groups, and don't work in groups for things that make sense to be worked on in groups, etc.

And all the communication is done by usenet newsgroups? This has got to be one of the poorest mediums for this type of work. I hear people complain how the servers are slow, don't update correctly, lose postings,etc. And people are having a hard time even tracking threads/converstations and such, cause people keep attaching to the wrong thread, etc...

Some of my EE classes in college were also distance learning classes, but we had cameras set up in the class, etc. Then again, I had a special prof. He didn't believe in note taking, cause he said every minute you spend writing notes, is another minute you aren't paying attention. So he had all the notes, guides, tables, etc all written before hand, and organized into a big fat binder, that you had to buy from the bookstore. That and he was very interactive, but now I'm getting off topic...

Anyways, for the money that UofPhoenix charges, I think its a big rip. I think they should've had pre-recorded and/or live lectures in real/windows media/name your favorite format, and you watch those, and the assignments are assigned there, etc. Use instant messaging for live chats/lab sessions/one-one etc etc. Hell, even use email threads for conversations or turning in assignments, using PGP or equivelent.

Anyways, back to our regularly scheduled programming...

Re:I don't know

[nicodaemos]

Even though business documents rarely exhibit the level of quality of open source software, it doesn't have to be that way. Collaborative projects work .... as long as their is a small set (1-3) of highly talented, like minded people to review and approve the changes. Linux is good because of Linus overseeing changes to the kernel. The same can be said of other open source projects.

Ownership, it does a project good.

Re:I don't know

[stephanruby]

Next time, you may want to email this url to your collaborators.

http://www.longleaf.net/ggrow/computerbad.html

[How Computers Cause Bad Writing]

In the past seven years, I have edited the writing of a number of professionals--including instructional designers, engineers, management consultants, environmental planners, biologists, psychologists, Army officers, and journalists--who write with computers. Like most users of word processing, these are not "writers"--they are professionals whose work requires them to write. Few of these have ever heard of "the writing process," and few have had any formal training since freshman English 20 years ago. For them, like millions of others, writing by computer is largely a self-taught enterprise.

Although most of these professionals share the belief that computers help them write, they display specific writing problems that may actually be caused, or accentuated, by the fact that they write on computers.

There are two reasons why the writing problems of professionals may be important to teachers of writing. First, students that I have taught (graduate students in instructional development and education, juniors and seniors majoring in communication and journalism) show similar tendencies when they write on computers. Though student writers may not have enough experience to demonstrate all of them, they distinctly gravitate toward the writing problems described here.

Second, many students from writing classes will soon be surrounded by people who have largely taught themselves writing and word processing. These self-taught professionals will become your graduates' next writing instructors--and their bosses. Unless students bring with them enough experience to maintain and defend good writing habits--the kind that make them effective, productive writers--they may be swamped by the kind of writing habits and writing problems common among self-taught professionals.

I will describe the problems I have observed among "real world" users of word processing and suggest some strategies for working with future professionals while they are still your students. What I have to say will apply best to nonfiction writing that is amenable to strong focus and clear organization--functional writing of the kind required of professionals in many fields.

The Editing Trap [Substituting Writing for Thinking]

Computers seem to tempt people to substitute writing for thinking. When they write with a computer, instead of rethinking their drafts for purpose, audience, content, strategy, and effectiveness, most untrained writers just keep editing the words they first wrote down. I have seen reports go through as many as six versions without one important improvement in the thought. In such writing, I find sentences that have had their various parts revised four or five times on four or five different days. Instead of focusing, simplifying, and enlivening the prose, these writers tend to graft on additional phrases, till even the qualifiers are qualified and the whole, lengthening mess slows to a crawl.

Drawn in by the word processor's ability to facilitate small changes, such writers neglect the larger steps in writing. They compose when they need to be planning, edit when they need to be revising.

Problems in Collaboration by Computer

Computers encourage more collaborative writing, and they encourage the collaboration to be far more intense. Before computers, the usual form of collaboration consisted of dividing up the work so that different authors wrote different chapters; then they reviewed one another's work. Writing with computers, though, collaborators can enter into one another's work so readily and revise it so easily that, in effect, co-authors can mutually co-write each sentence.

This kind of collaborative writing can be difficult to read. No two writers have quite the same sense about punctuation, tone, rhythm, headings, sentence variation,

Re:University of Phoenix

[Geopoliticus]

I agree with you. I currently am attending, but plan on getting my MBA when I am finished at a local University... so I hope less attention is paid to my undergraduate education than my masters education.

there is no free lunch

[AragornCG]

There's nothing magical about online education. If the school is good in real life, the school will be good online. My institution, Virginia Tech, offers online courses that are taught by the same professors that teach classroom courses. They use the same materials; the only difference is that lectures are distributed via electronic mail, audio or online conferencing. The neatest courses, like our innovative Engineering Cultures class, are delivered through a tool called CentraOne that offers voiceconferencing that is surprisingly effective.

This actually improved some of my classes. For one technical writing course, my professor was blind and conducted the course through e-mail via a screen reader. It was one of the best classes I've ever taken, and I had no clue he was blind until after the course was over and I talked to a friend (I always wondered why he was so particular about what the subject lines of our e-mails were...)

The key is that all of these professors had prior classroom experience. There is no Free Lunch (tm). If the institution has a good reputation IRL, they will offer good online classes. Online only universities without real life backing are sadly not ready for prime time yet. Maybe initiatives like MIT's OpenCourseWare, and less prestigous initiatives like the VT CS department's online courseware publishing (http://courses.cs.vt.edu/ - great lecture slides on C++ there) will change that someday by providing a basis in quality courseware... until then, though, you're better off at your local brick and mortar educational institution.

Re:Waah

[HanzoSan]

You know, you make a good point.

It does depend on the class as well as the teacher, not the tools. My best teacher used online tools to teach, we used blackboard, she used the internet to assist with her lectures, and our assignments were posted on the internet.

This was best, first if you messed the lecture it means you'll have to put more effort into doing your required readings, if you make your lectures the exams are much easier.

When it comes to writing paper it requires you to do alot of research on your own and you'll need the computer to do it, however its guided research because the teacher tells you what you need to research.

Overall a teacher is supposed to be like aa coach or guide, they show you the right way to do something, then you go do it.

Sometimes they dont show you the right way, such as with writing papers, here you have to figure out yourself the right way and your graded on how well you do it.

Like I said a teacher is just a coach, they guide you, its your job to teach yourself using the materials they give you and the tools you have as your disposal.

A better way to write a group term paper

[gentlewizard]

... would be for each student to write the entire paper, then meet together for the equivalent of a "code review", then take the best ideas and phrasing from all the papers to create a finished effort.

Re:A better way to write a group term paper

[hazem]

That can be a big waste of time. Suppose you have 6 people - you have now have six people writing complete papers. The whole point of group work is to learn how to distribute a work load so that as a group, you can get the work done with less individual effort.

What I find works well for group projects (papers, particularly) is to appoint a group "editor". They will actually do the writing. As a group, you all get together and determine the outline and form of the document, and what you want to accomplish. Then, divide up the portions of the outline and assign the specific research to each person - but keeping it lighter on the editor - they'll work harder in the end.

As research is completed, the parts are sent to everyone for review and comment - but these parts aren't fully written, but again, more like an outline.

Once everyone is happy with the content that will be included, the "editor" then takes the outlines of everything and writes the paper based on that. That draft then goes out to everyone and people comment, revise, correct, etc... but the writing is done through one person.

This way, everyone contributes to the work, and knows where it is going before they start. The paper has "one voice" and sounds coherent.

If you think of a product assembly process, it's stilly to have each person do every step of the process. It's better to have people focus on what they are good at - some at editing, some at researching, etc.

As a former online instructor...

[jkinney3]

I have been a college Physics and Astronomy teacher for 10 years. I decided to look into the online schools as way of expanding my teaching coverage.

The entire process of "teaching" in that environment is only suitable for subjects that allow lots of "round table" style discussion. A liturature class where the plot motives are hashed out online in a forum would be a good example.

Math and science is next to impossible.

I would argue that the instructors are working in an unsuitable environment more than I would argue that the instructors are slack. It is a system that encourages a very hands off approach.

I would also argue that the degree obtained from those online schools is exactly what was purchased, a piece of paper. It has no academic merit. Like many private, for profit "schools", they exist to make money, not educated graduates. The one I was with even had incentives like those of a dot-com (stock options!).

In short, if you want an education that will move you ahead in life, go to the best traditional school in your interest area that you can get in.

If you want an impressive piece of paper that verifies you (or your parents) paid enough classes to qualify for a graduation ticket, go to a big name traditional private school.

If you want to wast several years online to "earn" a "diploma" doing the barest minimum for a big bucket of cash, go to an online school. It won't advance your career unless you dig ditches or hang off the back of a garbage truck (an completely horrid job that I am very gratefull that those people do. I always thank them when I'm out and the truck shows up.)

Re:University of Phoenix

[pizzicar]

The whole idea is that you apply what you learn. I received an online MBA (Global Management) through the UoP last year. A significant number of my assignments revolved around issues in my workplace. Not only was it possible to utilize resources in my workplace, but I was able to apply what I learned - showing mastery of the subject matter to my professor and helping my own career. Without real-world examples of the problems and issues you are learning about, it is much more difficult (however - if your MBA is all case study based, then working while attending school is less important).

Lazy Professor may really be Busy Professor

[malfunct]

It might not be the professor thats the problem so much as the department being vastly understaffed. The professor was probably told at the beginning of the year "hey you have an online section of this class, it shouldn't be bad you can do it in your time between classes". Then the professor is left trying to figure out what will work as an online curriculum, teaching the students, grading papers, and not cut into his real life class. It sux.

So I'm saying the problem you see is probably fairly widespread and definitely real but will take a while to fix. The universities will need to put a priority on the online classes and hire staff that focuses on them. When that happens you will see better content/participation.

No

[cybercrap]

No, this has got to be a pretty stupid question. The point of college is not to just learn facts and how to problem solve. It is about social interaction, and lab work. Maybe I am just wierd, but I got a whole lot more from my lab classes than I got from classes that were like goto class listen to prof, go home read book, take test.

Re:Waah

[Kid Brother of St. A]

Calculus - yeah, read the book, do the assignments, complete the exam. Hooray, you know calculus - you pass.

I frankly doubt that a person who makes it through Calculus this way really knows Calculus. Really all this approach does for you is put a notch in your transcript. To really understand the subject you have to learn the mechanics but also come to grips with the theory and concepts, learn how to apply what you've learned into new situations, learn how to see it in everyday things... Just punching the clock in the classroom ain't gonna do it. You can get a passing grade that way but you haven't really learned anything that you'll remember.

Whoever said that the prof should be like a guide rather than a talking head was right. If your profs at your school can't find it in their hearts to help you really learn, vote with your feet and go find another college! There are plenty of schools out where teaching matters AND who can give you a state of the art education.

Incidentally, notice we're talking about the human element of a college class making all the difference... these online schools are worthwhile only insofar as they leave that human element in their pedagogy. Just emailing in downloaded homework sets doesn't qualify as a legitimate education, IMHO.

Re:University of Phoenix

[ChemicalSpider]

"Traditional classroom: Instructor works through some problems during class, talks about theory, etc. Assigns homework. You turn it in. Little to no conversation with your fellow students on these assignments, as it's considered to be cheating."

Quite the opposite at my college. Our lectures do consist of the professor going through the theory and presenting a few examples, but it doesn't stop there. Our homework assignments are challenging, but we are encouraged to work together - otherwise it would be near impossible to complete on time. That is to say, copying is frowned upon, but it helps immensely to work with someone who is performing the same operations and catches any simple errors you may make.

Also, the professors hold office hours in which you are encouraged to utilize to get help on homework. They give you one-on-one attention to make sure you understand the subject material. There are also tutors available in the evenings.

Now, like you I'm no math whiz, but at my college we're all required to take "core" math courses in order to graduate. This includes a half-semester courses in calculus and prob/stat as well as semester courses in linear algebra, differential equations, and vector calculus. I would never be able to complete these subjects without the resources available at a college.

Although the public forums are a valuable resource for you, I'm curious how much time it took to answer (or even ask) your questions. I know if I'm stuck on a problem it would take me 20 minutes or more to explain my question over instant messenger and another 20 minutes to receive a reply - much less understand it, whereas it would take 5 minutes to walk down the hall and visit the nearest math major.

I'm also curious what format the forums use, for submitting homework assignments as well as discussion. Do you all have to learn LaTeX to take advantage of integral signs, as well as all the superscripts/subscripts and greek characters that are useful in math? Or do you just spent a lot of time playing with the useless equation editor in MS Word, or do they provide software for editing equations?

Re:in the real world, yes, but not in school

[hazem]

That depends on the point of the exercise.

It has been my MBA class experience that these group projects are designed more to get people to function as groups - and not to see if each person can do the whole project. It's trying to prepare you for the "real world".

Most of the projects I've worked on are bigger than one person can normally do - so you are forced to learn how to organize as a group and work together and complete the project. It's in your best interest to distribute the work in accordance with each person's skill.

In the "real world", the accountant does the accounting, the graphics designer does the graphics, and the coder writes the programs. This is usually the best way to get things done. If you want the accountant to learn graphics design, send him to a graphics design class - but at work, you have him do the accounting, because he can do it better than the coder and the graphics designer.

Consider a class where there are 3 groups doing a presentation. The teacher says each group will grade the others, and the grades will be given: A for the best, B for the next, and C for the worst.

How will you organize your group? Will you force people to work on area where they are weakest just for an educational experience? Or will you assign tasks according to skill and try to beat the other groups - that's how the "real world" should work - if you want to stay in business.

Re:University of Phoenix

[Pooua]

If that has been your college experience, then the institution you selected was quite weak. College is never about busy work but about teaching how to think about things. I am currently a PhD student and an instructor for classes and I never assign my students busy work. I assign problems that will make them think about how to apply the information they should have gathered from lecture to a problem.

Hurray for you, and I mean that. I've attended several conventional colleges, and it is not unusual for me to think I could do just as well buying the textbooks and hardware and learning on my own. Supposedly, the instructor in such classes is teaching me to think on my own. Fine; I can think on my own without going into hock to some school. This is particularly true of programming, which I am beginning to suspect is never actually taught anywhere, because everyone has theories about programming, but no one has any science. All that exists in the programming world are fads and baseless dogmatic assertions.

Re:Waah

[Kid Brother of St. A]

What exactly is the magic bit that you learn in a lecture that can't be learned by reading the text and learning to do the problems? ...Nothing... Believe it or not, with the right book and some practice you can learn darn near anything. Heck, I even learned to Juggle from "Juggling for the Complete Klutz." A book can be a guide in exactly the same way that a professor can be a guide.

There is an excellent point here -- lectures (and, by extension, all classes) are educational only insofar as they compel the people in the audience to go out and try things on their own. A lecture teaches nothing. It's the doing things on your own (like picking up the beanbags and tossing them in the air) that really causes learning to happen. The best lecturers know this and aim their lecturing accordingly. And this kind of "lecturing" could very well take place in written form or online.

At the same time, there really is something to interacting with people at a level beyond just being in a physical room with others listening to one of them talk. Learning seems to be reinforced by interacting with others. For instance, I was at a 3-day course on Java programming recently and I was amazed at how important the interaction -- the verbal back-and-forth between us students and between the instructor and the students -- really was. I'd been trying to teach myself Java out of a book for months and had gotten nowhere (dammit Jim, I'm a mathematician, not a programmer!) but once I was able to talk through my difficulties with other people it makes perfect sense. I left that course thinking that there would be no way I'd have gotten that from an online course, or at least not as efficiently. I'm willing to give online courses the benefit of the doubt (in fact I'm doing a week-long workshop online in July to learn a software package) but humans are inherently social creatures and learning is an inherently social activity, and it takes a pretty clever design (ala slahsdot!) to reproduce authentic social interaction at the digital level.

Re:University of Phoenix

[saden1]

Some things are hard to learn on your own. I mean take the idea of threads for example. Threads are not intuitive. I know quite a lot of professional programmers who have no clue what a thread is. Then you have statistics which is definitely not something one can learn on their own. At some point you will need someone with experience to explain things to you because you will undoubtedly get lost. Then you also have operating system concepts that aren't easy to learn on your own.

Just because you can read doesn't mean you can understand everything you have read. There are times when an instructor who has done work before comes in handy and if you think otherwise you are either a genius or full of shit.

Re:University of Phoenix

[raju1kabir]

I already know how to think. The reason I left the UMass system was because they were shoving Leftist totalitarianism down my throat. Logic and objectivity were definitenly not covered topics.

If you already know how to think, why weren't you honing your skills by using your amazing logic-fu on them? Surely someone as smart as you could have had them all watching Fox News within a matter of days.

Sounds to me like you're afraid to think, afraid of head-on confrontation with perspectives that differ from your own.

There's no better way to figure out what you really believe than by being surrounded by people you think are wrong. That is, if you're up to the challenge.

Re:Not just online colleges

[Moofie]

The reason schools are willing to just sell degrees, is because a lot of employers only want to hire degreed people, even for jobs that by no reasonable standard would require the critical thinking skills that one would ostensibly learn at a university.

How many people do you know who are stupendously competent, but have little in the way of formal certifications? How many people do you know who have a list of letters after their name, but couldn't find their ass with a flashlight and a GPS?

Now, for extra credit, which one gets promoted?

Such is life, unfortunately.