Mwongozi was one of many readers to note that "the NY Times is reporting Justin's resignation from Nullsoft, and more details can be found in his weblog. One has to wonder whether this has anything to do with the WASTE fiasco."
Justin Frankel
by
vasqzr
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· Score: 3, Interesting
I remember talking to the guy on IRC years ago when he was working on his old 3D engine, Plush.
Time sure flies!
One doesn't have to wonder...
by
Xerithane
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· Score: 5, Interesting
He's leaving because he doesn't like the "We own everything you write" clause in his employment contract. I'm not sure what the WASTE fiasco is anyway. WASTE is something Nullsoft produced, as long as it's under the GPL (Yes.) he can quit and still work on it, and nobody can (legally) care.
He's probably just pissed that what he works on gets the "Copyright AOL/Time Warner" header on it, and understandably so.
Re:One doesn't have to wonder...
by
LostCluster
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· Score: 4, Interesting
Therefore, it couldn't be produced under the GPL unless AOL said so.
This was discussed to death in the previous WASTE discussion. Justin, as an employee of AOL, tried to put WASTE under the GPL. AOL then came forward and said that Justin had no authority to do so.
However, just because an employee makes a deal outside of their authority doesn't automatically reverse the deal. The test is whether the other party to the deal in good faith believed that the employee had the authority, or should have known that something was amiss. That's a tough question and would likely take a judge to answer completely...
Re:One doesn't have to wonder...
by
pc486
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· Score: 4, Interesting
Last I checked, RSA is in the public domain. Even if WASTE used stolen/imporperly licensed code, opensource coders could simply replace it with a GPL compatible version.
Suprisingly he lasted this long
by
brent_linux
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· Score: 5, Interesting
When AOL bought out Nullsoft, I was sure he would leave. When they took down the gnutella stuff, I was sure he would leave. When they stopped the aimster stuff, I was sure he would leave.
I didn't really have him pegged as a corporate kinda guy from the start. I am really suprised that he could take it this long before he left. Corps are often to stifling to creativity.
Re:Anything to do with Waste...
by
Xerithane
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· Score: 5, Interesting
This has everything to do with WASTE and any other projects that AOL canned.
I think it has everything to do with the lack of independance of coding, not WASTE or any other particular project. Those are just symptoms of the problem.
I've worked for companies before that have draconian contracts, "Anything you think is our property! Hah!"
Question about article
by
tkrotchko
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· Score: 4, Interesting
In the article, it claims Nullsoft is saying there is no valid license for WASTE, yet it looked to me as if WASTE was released under GPL.
I wonder if the GPL license is valid at this point for WASTE? Or did Justin not have the rights to release it under GPL?
-- You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you
Most Winamp coders left already
by
Skuto
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· Score: 5, Interesting
Most of the really good Winamp coders left already. The guy that wrote almost all the core plugins, Peter Pawlowksi, quit because he didn't like Winamp 3 design and thought it was a dead end. Because AOL still owns his code, some of the plugins are 'dead' now, and the code can't be used any more. Bummer.
He wrote his own player instead, which is, eh, quite different from Winamp, Foobar2000.
Anyway, Frankel has little to complain about. Nullsoft was bought out for almost 86M$. For that much money, he'll never have to code, err, express himself ever again.
iTunes for windows anybody???
by
snuffdiddy23
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· Score: 5, Interesting
i am keeping my fingers cross that he can continue with his work. apple is looking for a coder for the iTunes Music store for windows, Justin Frankel would be perfect. only to switch him over to the darkside now.
Really, I figured he would've quit right the second that AOLTW bought Nullsoft, as we've seen happen with countless other small good companies when bought by AOLTW or Microsoft. Winamp 2.92 (2.x branch is still maturing--though probably not after this) is super. Anyway, I'm sure that a talented developer such as himself can get a job most anywhere, or even just work like Linus does at some place that gives him money while he essentially independently develops kickass software.
-- I'm on a road shaped like a figure eight; I'm going nowhere but I'm guaranteed to be late.
Not much of a surprise...
by
Blic
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· Score: 5, Interesting
It'd be curious to find out exactly what happened at Nullsoft. I mean, things seemed good for a while after the acquisition. Then it seems like they brought in a lot of new people and came out with the bloated beast that is WinAmp 3. How much involvement did Justin have in that fiasco?
Then recently they brought out WinAmp 2.9X which sort of undercut WinAmp 3, but in a good way.
Gnutella, and then WASTE which was such a perfect name for the program, hehe, as long as you've read Pynchon's The Crying of Lot 49.
Well, as long as Justin diversified and didn't have all his money tied up in AOL stock he's probably doing pretty well and shouldn't have to put up with the headaches if he doesn't want to.
you're free not to work for them.
by
Artifex
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· Score: 4, Interesting
I've worked for companies before that have draconian contracts, "Anything you think is our property! Hah!"
If you take the contract, you shouldn't complain about the conditions later. I don't mean just you, Xerithane, personally, but anyone in general, and him especially. If he really agreed to this kind of contract, he's given AOL the high road in this matter.
Besides that, even if he worked on it completely independently, without Nullsoft resources, and without a contract giving all IP developed during employment to AOL, they're still free to refuse to let it sit on corporate servers, where it generates legal liability and bandwidth costs for them.
-- Get off my launchpad!
Re:you're free not to work for them.
by
MunchMunch
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· Score: 5, Interesting
"If you take the contract, you shouldn't complain about the conditions later. I don't mean just you, Xerithane, personally, but anyone in general, and him especially. If he really agreed to this kind of contract, he's given AOL the high road in this matter."
Not to sound trite, but I think this is maybe oversimplified. Contracts are compromises, and compromises always leave room for either side to get an advantage over the other. As with many corporations, the power dynamic is such that a contractee may in effect be forced to agree to less than fair provisions because they have become 'standard,' or the job market is tough, or the company is exerting monopoly power, etc. That agreement doesn't make draconian clauses or terms any less draconian, and the "free-market, free choice" ideal shouldn't be an absolute argument when there are such exceptions.
That said, I think it looks like Frankel more or less agrees with you, and that's why he's resigning instead of filing a frivolous lawsuit.
Why did he have to release it at nullsoft.com?
by
Fefe
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· Score: 3, Interesting
Has has a perfectly fine other web page, and he certainly has enough money to buy a few hundred other domains and servers.
I don't get his complaining about freedom and oppression and stuff. Why can't he just publish his software on some other web page, maybe even under a pseudonym or something.
Re:Assignment of copyright and the GPL
by
gmhowell
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· Score: 3, Interesting
Justin was/is the CEO of the company (Nullsoft) that released the software. It can be as legal as any other contract, thanks to the doctrine of 'apparent authority'. If the other party (someone dl'ing WASTE) has good reason to believe the other person (Justin) has authority to speak for the company (as CEO of Nullsoft, he has at least the appearance of authority) then the contract can be upheld.
The janitor couldn't release this software. Well, he could, but it's unlikely that a reasonable person would think that a janitor could speak for a company. Not so the CEO. Similarly, Justin is not CEO at AOL, so could not change pricing there. However, whoever replaced Steve Case could do something like that.
The car salesman probably couldn't give away fifty free cars. The owner could. Further, if there was a sales manager, he could probably give away the cars.
-- Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
In Frankel's Defense
by
qortra
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· Score: 4, Interesting
I don't know very much about the business end of corporate buyouts or corporate software licensing, but I'll assume that you are accurate with your facts and your speculation. Furthermore, I do totally respect your opinion about Frankel, under certain circumstances, I would probably agree with you; I just want him to get a fair defense.
You say that, of him, that "yamering on in public about [his] former employer is at best pretty immature." While this is true, he isn't guilty of this particular thing (at least in the links that slashdot provided; i would welcome others if you have them). In fact, he says (of AOLTW), "I have nothing but respect for the company". All he claims is that the company owns his code, and it seem to me that you agree with that statement.
If there was financial timing involved, its possible that he came to his conclusion about leaving a while ago (perhaps after gnutella got ganked), and just postponed his departure until after he was financially secure. This too, to me, is totally valid; its a lot easier to practice your art (whatever that may be) if you don't have to worry about money. Four years of compromise might mean, for Frankel, a lifetime of doing just what he's wanted.
Which brings us to WASTE. First of all, I need to plead ignorance here; perhaps you can explain to me why Mozilla folk can release GPL code while still working for AOLTW, and Frankel can't. Is it a difference in their contracts? If so, do you have access to their contracts to show me the differences? But alas, I promised to assume that your factual information is accurate. So, he did something wrong and illegal by claiming to release GPLed code under Nullsoft. However, I'd like to think that this is another part of self-expression, perhaps similar to graffiti (which, although it is wrong, and ought to be wrong, is still sometimes beautiful/powerful art, and a real form of self expression). Sometimes, the method of communicating your art (in his case, as his last act of working for Nullsoft) is as important as the art itself. It sounds illogical, and grounded more in romantic ideals than in fact, but I can imagine that being important to Frankel.
Thanks for your comment, and please respond or email me if I've misrepresented your opinion in any way.
Slashdot Mirror
I remember talking to the guy on IRC years ago when he was working on his old 3D engine, Plush.
Time sure flies!
He's leaving because he doesn't like the "We own everything you write" clause in his employment contract. I'm not sure what the WASTE fiasco is anyway. WASTE is something Nullsoft produced, as long as it's under the GPL (Yes.) he can quit and still work on it, and nobody can (legally) care.
He's probably just pissed that what he works on gets the "Copyright AOL/Time Warner" header on it, and understandably so.
Dacels Jewelers can't be trusted.
When AOL bought out Nullsoft, I was sure he would leave. When they took down the gnutella stuff, I was sure he would leave. When they stopped the aimster stuff, I was sure he would leave.
I didn't really have him pegged as a corporate kinda guy from the start. I am really suprised that he could take it this long before he left. Corps are often to stifling to creativity.
This has everything to do with WASTE and any other projects that AOL canned.
I think it has everything to do with the lack of independance of coding, not WASTE or any other particular project. Those are just symptoms of the problem.
I've worked for companies before that have draconian contracts, "Anything you think is our property! Hah!"
Dacels Jewelers can't be trusted.
In the article, it claims Nullsoft is saying there is no valid license for WASTE, yet it looked to me as if WASTE was released under GPL.
I wonder if the GPL license is valid at this point for WASTE? Or did Justin not have the rights to release it under GPL?
You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you
Most of the really good Winamp coders left already. The guy that wrote almost all the core plugins, Peter Pawlowksi, quit because he didn't like Winamp 3 design and thought it was a dead end. Because AOL still owns his code, some of the plugins are 'dead' now, and the code can't be used any more. Bummer.
He wrote his own player instead, which is, eh, quite different from Winamp, Foobar2000.
Anyway, Frankel has little to complain about. Nullsoft was bought out for almost 86M$. For that much money, he'll never have to code, err, express himself ever again.
i am keeping my fingers cross that he can continue with his work. apple is looking for a coder for the iTunes Music store for windows, Justin Frankel would be perfect. only to switch him over to the darkside now.
Really, I figured he would've quit right the second that AOLTW bought Nullsoft, as we've seen happen with countless other small good companies when bought by AOLTW or Microsoft. Winamp 2.92 (2.x branch is still maturing--though probably not after this) is super. Anyway, I'm sure that a talented developer such as himself can get a job most anywhere, or even just work like Linus does at some place that gives him money while he essentially independently develops kickass software.
I'm on a road shaped like a figure eight; I'm going nowhere but I'm guaranteed to be late.
It'd be curious to find out exactly what happened at Nullsoft. I mean, things seemed good for a while after the acquisition. Then it seems like they brought in a lot of new people and came out with the bloated beast that is WinAmp 3. How much involvement did Justin have in that fiasco? Then recently they brought out WinAmp 2.9X which sort of undercut WinAmp 3, but in a good way. Gnutella, and then WASTE which was such a perfect name for the program, hehe, as long as you've read Pynchon's The Crying of Lot 49. Well, as long as Justin diversified and didn't have all his money tied up in AOL stock he's probably doing pretty well and shouldn't have to put up with the headaches if he doesn't want to.
If you take the contract, you shouldn't complain about the conditions later. I don't mean just you, Xerithane, personally, but anyone in general, and him especially. If he really agreed to this kind of contract, he's given AOL the high road in this matter.
Besides that, even if he worked on it completely independently, without Nullsoft resources, and without a contract giving all IP developed during employment to AOL, they're still free to refuse to let it sit on corporate servers, where it generates legal liability and bandwidth costs for them.
Get off my launchpad!
Has has a perfectly fine other web page, and he certainly has enough money to buy a few hundred other domains and servers.
I don't get his complaining about freedom and oppression and stuff. Why can't he just publish his software on some other web page, maybe even under a pseudonym or something.
Justin was/is the CEO of the company (Nullsoft) that released the software. It can be as legal as any other contract, thanks to the doctrine of 'apparent authority'. If the other party (someone dl'ing WASTE) has good reason to believe the other person (Justin) has authority to speak for the company (as CEO of Nullsoft, he has at least the appearance of authority) then the contract can be upheld.
The janitor couldn't release this software. Well, he could, but it's unlikely that a reasonable person would think that a janitor could speak for a company. Not so the CEO. Similarly, Justin is not CEO at AOL, so could not change pricing there. However, whoever replaced Steve Case could do something like that.
The car salesman probably couldn't give away fifty free cars. The owner could. Further, if there was a sales manager, he could probably give away the cars.
Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
I don't know very much about the business end of corporate buyouts or corporate software licensing, but I'll assume that you are accurate with your facts and your speculation. Furthermore, I do totally respect your opinion about Frankel, under certain circumstances, I would probably agree with you; I just want him to get a fair defense.
You say that, of him, that "yamering on in public about [his] former employer is at best pretty immature." While this is true, he isn't guilty of this particular thing (at least in the links that slashdot provided; i would welcome others if you have them). In fact, he says (of AOLTW), "I have nothing but respect for the company". All he claims is that the company owns his code, and it seem to me that you agree with that statement.
If there was financial timing involved, its possible that he came to his conclusion about leaving a while ago (perhaps after gnutella got ganked), and just postponed his departure until after he was financially secure. This too, to me, is totally valid; its a lot easier to practice your art (whatever that may be) if you don't have to worry about money. Four years of compromise might mean, for Frankel, a lifetime of doing just what he's wanted.
Which brings us to WASTE. First of all, I need to plead ignorance here; perhaps you can explain to me why Mozilla folk can release GPL code while still working for AOLTW, and Frankel can't. Is it a difference in their contracts? If so, do you have access to their contracts to show me the differences? But alas, I promised to assume that your factual information is accurate. So, he did something wrong and illegal by claiming to release GPLed code under Nullsoft. However, I'd like to think that this is another part of self-expression, perhaps similar to graffiti (which, although it is wrong, and ought to be wrong, is still sometimes beautiful/powerful art, and a real form of self expression). Sometimes, the method of communicating your art (in his case, as his last act of working for Nullsoft) is as important as the art itself. It sounds illogical, and grounded more in romantic ideals than in fact, but I can imagine that being important to Frankel.
Thanks for your comment, and please respond or email me if I've misrepresented your opinion in any way.