Slashdot Mirror
Latest SCO News
SCO has discovered an amendment to their contract with Novell that may clarify that they did purchase the copyright to System V after all. Heise has an interview in German with a former employee. Cringely says SCO probably was responsible for any duplicated code itself, with a theory that is quite plausible. One non-programmer corporate analyst has looked at SCO's alleged evidence. And SCO has another press conference today.
When are these clowns going to figure out what their story is? Coming out of a back room filing cabinet with an amendment that Novell doesn't even have on file sounds like a pretty bizarre circumstance. If this is the piece of evidence upon which their claim stands, then why didn't they roll this out in the first place?
I can't recall a company performing such exquisite hara-kiri in public view before...
Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
Not having the benefit of seeing the code I'll have to assumme these comments are fairly overwhelming evidence wise.
If you knowingly copy code, into a product that can be viewed by potentially millions, wouldn't you at least try to make it not resemble the original work.
Yes, it is easy to catch the lazy cheaters, but if put some effort in it then it should be a little more difficult then running grep.
I'm sure there are bound to be similarities here and there, coders no doubt ran into the same problems working on the same platform, but apparently these grievances were enough to goto court over.
Obviously, we can surmise they understand their work enough to copy kernel code, so we know the individuals were at least someone intelligent.
So, having in mind how code theft works, it doesn't make sense for something as obvious as a comment to stick around unless someone wanted to get caught.
Just my 1/100th of the american dollar.
"You should always go to other people's funerals; otherwise, they won't come to yours." -- Yogi Berra
Big fucking deal. What's a non-programmer going to say about code? That's like going to a farmer and asking him how to fly an airplane, or a pilot, and asking him when the best time is to plant the corn.
From the article:
So Novell agrees that the information in this ammendment appears to be legit, but they can't verify that this ammendment actually occurred because they don't have a copy of it themselves?
Could it be that SCO happened to "create" this ammendment and then convienently "find it in a filing cabinet" ?
In C++, friends can touch each others private parts.
The moral of this story is to never comment your code.
I was not touched there by an angel.
Giga information group rings a bell with me too, old MS yay and Apple/Linux/everything else nay sayers :)
Wow, what an indepth analysis information week reported on. Some "business anaylst" type saying "oh yeah, look at the comments in the code, the are IDENTICAL"
/* open a file */
A comment saying:
is NOT a basis for a lawsuit right??? IANAL... so who knows. If it is, I am in DEEP trouble.
I dunno, I can't wait till the day comes, in the future, when we can all sit around and say "hey remember the SCO days? Boy, wasn't that a trip?"
Ugh, oh well.
sad robot making broken music
-_-
We don't need the play-by-play for this anymore than we needed it for the OJ Simpson trial...
IBM throws the pitch.
SCO swings... pop fly! He broke the bat!
Novell jumps for the catch... ERROR! He dropped it!
SCO makes it to first.. but wait! Is that cork in hs bat?
GeekNights!
Late Night Radio for Geeks!
The teleconference is at 12:00PM (EST). Be sure to join in!
.
Toll Free within North America: 1-800-946-0722
International: 719-457-2647
Password to enter call: 746737
More info here
This time, I won't miss it!
All Hail Discordia. Hail Eris. Fnord.
Scroll down -->
http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache:lGZmsKmjdowJ: www.yankeegroup.com/public/events/conferences/ITF2 003/components/IntegrationTechForumSpeakers.pdf+La ura+DiDio&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
how can you patent 1s and 0s
On the other hand, how can you pattent a bunch of atoms?
Don't take me wrong, I agree with you, but not on the basis of 1s and 0s.
If SCO had this amendment (which Novell apparently doesn't atm) then WHY WERE THEY ASKING NOVELL FOR COPYRIGHT RECENTLY?
Novel and SCO both seem to have forgoten about it, and/or something screwy is going on.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
goto /* Fuck Dijkstra */
is one of my fav's. But I think i saw it in the Linux Kernel first, before copying it just about everywhere I go the chance.
A small thing, (a small mind...)
What if SCO took some code from Linux and inserted into its own code? Even if there are some similarities between SCO's code and Linux's code how can SCO prove that it was stolen from SCO and not vice versa?
Government cannot make man richer, but it can make him poorer. - Ludwig von Mises
Big f***ing deal. What's a non-programmer going to say about code? That's like going to a farmer and asking him how to fly an airplane, or a pilot, and asking him when the best time is to plant the corn.
I'd say it's more like asking an airplane pilot if two cows look the same.
Even more like asking a farmer if two planes look the same. They're designed to perform the same function (fly) with basically the same equipment (wings) so there will be some similarities and a lot of the differences will be in the technical details (the camber of the wing and the hydraulics that move the control surfaces) that an observer not fluent in airplane design might miss.
Granted, if the comments in question all contain the programmer's initials (something not uncommon where I work), then that would be pretty damning.
Could it be that SCO happened to "create" this ammendment and then convienently "find it in a filing cabinet" ?
Sure. And when found to be a falsified document then Novell would sue the everliving crap out of them. Fraud, forgery, harm to business, and probably a dozen or so other civil and criminal charges would be filed.
Even I don't think SCO is that stupid.
In any case, unless the ammendment was filed with the Copyright office it makes very little difference -- all SCO could do is sue Linux companies and users to cease further infringement, not monetary damages. They couldn't even recoup legal costs for the cases.
"Apparently the most telling evidence is that parts of the SCO code and Linux code include identical annotations made by developers when they wrote the programs, says DiDio, who compares such notes to the signature or fingerprint of a developer's work."
// This section lifted from the BSD networking code...
That would be pretty interesting. If the comments are worded the same, that could be pretty convicing evidence.
Yeah, but it said....
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
I should be able to patent the methods I used to achieve that, as well.
IF (and ONLY if) you (and for this discussion, "you" is any developer, not avalys in particular) actually innovated to do so. Changing from one well-known algorithm or data structure to another well-known one with better average or worst-case performance IS NOT INNOVATION. It's what you (hopefully) learned to do in school.
Yes, if you really, TRULY, come up with some new algorithm that no-one thought of before, yes, you should be *allowed* to patent it.
But there are two very good reasons why you should think long and hard before you do:
1) Chances are, you *didn't* invent it -- you probably just independently arrived at a solution that HAS been done before. So, there's a considerable risk that it's *already* been patented somewhere else (e.g. IBM or Microsoft), or that there's prior art that's clearly NOT patent-encumbered.
2) More importantly to software engineering as a field of practice, a great many true innovators make it a point NOT to protect their innovation, but instead to share it with their collegues, with students, with anyone who's interested.
Yes, that may be bad for business for the short term, but as a field that's still very research oriented, it's better for everyone in the long term.
Imagine where we'd be today if Dijkstra (holy crap, I spelled that right on the first try?) had patented his shortest-path algorithm? If various process-scheduling algorithms were patented, instead of published in textbooks?
If you only care about the here and now and your back pocket, sure, patent a method -- if you can truly convince yourself that you've innovated, and were the FIRST to do so.
But if you're interested in furthering the field, or if you know full well that what you did is neat but not truly new, *innovative*, and *non-obvious* (even after the fact), consider sharing, and letting others build on your work, instead.
Xentax
You shouldn't verb words.
Consider errno.h (or its various "component" (i.e. "#include"-ed files).
Most non-programmers comparing instances of this file from different sources would think "hey, these are almost exact copies!".
On the other hand, most programmers would be quite aware that they almost have to be exact copies: you need the "#define", you need the error name, and you need the error value, and they need to be the same. You could even imagine the comments being the same, or at least very similar. Most programmers would understand that these values are needed for compliance with published POSIX-type standards. Non-programmers would not.
Come to think of it, maybe it's something silly like this that SCO is complaining about.
That there was no followup makes it easier for me to believe anyone who claims this document is a fabrication.
Post anonymously - For when your opinion embarrasses even you!
I haven't posted yet about this story because I couldn't figure out exactly what I wanted to say. I just knew that it made me sick every time I saw SCO vs. Linux or any time I thought about the lawsuit(s) involved.
I think it's a deeper, more disturbed form of the same sensation that I get when we discuss intellectual property laws on Slashdot.
What it all comes down to is this: I don't care if there are six or ten minor chunks of SCO code in Linux. I don't care where the Linux code came from. SCO is not good for humanity; SCO is a product. Linux, on the other hand, is good for humanity on a fundamental level.
It brings computing services to people across the world who otherwise couldn't afford it or who otherwise would be sending money to multi-billionaire Bill Gates instead of buying food. Thanks to Linux, these people can spend their money on real things that they need, while still participating in the global exchange of ideas and perhaps getting a toe-hold in the "modern" western world that.
Linux provides nonprofits like churches and community centers the ability to provide 'net access and document services to underpriveleged communities who otherwise wouldn't have access to these things or would have to depend on meager government funding to buy licenses (again while lining the pockets of the rich).
Linux provides some of the best hands-on education to young aspiring programmers and scientists that can be found anywhere, and it does so using best-of-breed tools, and at no charge.
Linux has fostered a community of international understanding between research organizations, governments, communities and even small groups of programmers and individuals. There are no borders in Linux, only individuals working together, smiling and one another and breaking barrier after barrier together.
Some look at this list and say "hmm... makes national borders irrelevent... helps the poor and not the rich... does not pay for labor in currency, but in the rewards of the product itself... is not strongly managed from the top down by anyone with fiscal authority, but is instead contributed to by a vast egalitarian labor pool..." and then they call Linux a form of communism and say that it needs to be eliminated, or at least that it is unethical to support Linux instead of for-profit companies.
Are these people insane? Linux is a boon to humanity. Anyone who can't see that is blind. If Linux is communism, it's time to take another look at communism, because it looks to me like a beautiful thing.
And in the meantime, I don't care where the code of Linux comes from. The fact is, SCO's never done thing one to help the human race, here they are busily exploiting it, rich and poor, young and old a like, just like so many other companies out there greedily trying to harm all our lives on the basis of "IP", and now they seem to think they can kill Linux off in the interest of making a buck, and that this would be a good, "moral" thing... and many mainstream analysts seem to make the basic assumption that if Linux did "steal" SCO's code, then this is indeed the case. Well, I disagree. Linux helps people at no charge. SCO makes a profit by exploiting people.
It's just wrong. It's backward. It makes me sick. I don't care where Linux's code comes from. SCO is no Linux and never will be, and if we end up with a nice, profitable SCO and a damaged (or defunct) Linux movement, I think the world will be a much worse place, not a much better one, no matter how much people harp about the "right" thing to do or the "rights" of copyright holders.
I almost feel like some kind of neo-flower-child. Screw the establishment. Help the people. If that's communism or if that's bad for business, so fscking what?
It's not wise to get in a bind over the comments of one analyst. Remember, analysts of this same sort said .com's would continue their rise. It may very well be in this analyst's interest to assert similarities in commenting style. Interestingly enough, there was no talk in the article about actual code being reproduced, only comments.
SCO's claim was that source code had been cut directly from "their" Unix code and added to Linux. This does not preclude someone from working on both projects. All this analyst's statements show is that the same people may have worked on both systems. This doesn't show a wholesale heist of intellectual property.
SCO may be taking a page from the M$ playbook by intentially pushing "evidence from experts" to the public. Will this analysts comments be mailed to Linux users? It wouldn't surprise me in the least. If SCO can drive FUD to the hearts of corporate types, they can all but force an IBM buyout.
So far Novell has played their cards right. They have documentation to back up every claim they've made, and they haven't given me one reason to doubt them. The fact that SCO has a document that no one else does, and the fact that they just suddenly discovered it makes me point fingers at SCO before pointing at Novell.
There is no reasonable defense against an idiot with an agenda
:wq
This is great stuff for tech geeks, but publications that your boss is reading such as this article over as business week are what your boss(you know, the guy who pays your salary) are reading. I would say this whole debacle is having quite the intended effect.
mp3's are only for those with bad memories
My thought on all this is that that won't be known until such time as the code in question is actually released. At which point the Linux kernel admins will look at their records, hunt down the people who submitted those patches, and *ask them*, and probably call them as witnesses.
At this point things will probably get interesting, as there are open, public records that show bit by bit in pretty close detail every step of the development of the linux kernel, and who submitted what, and when, and why it was accepted-- and these records have been publicly available on the internet for years, and archives exist in various places, which would make these records impossible to change after the fact. SCO, meanwhile, if they have records at all of when and by who code was added to their materials, has no particular proof that those records are real and not faked (either by their lawyers or a malicious employee years previous trying to pass off open source code as his own work). Just a thought..
Of course had SCO simply begun all this by publicly saying "hey, these parts of the linux kernel are copied from code we own the copyright to", the linux kernel admins would have just about certainly simply checked out those sections of code and the people who wrote them, and, if there was an apparent infringement, removed and replaced the offending sections. I'm really really hoping that this fact will not escape the judge at trial.
(I'm assuming the linux kernel people wouldn't do something stupid like allow an anonymous patch into the kernel.)
Irritable, left-wing and possibly humorous bumper stickers and t-shirts
Interresting. I suppose SCO is doing a good job. Before we were arguing this whole thing is BS, and they side stepped our arguments.
/.
The steps;
1. SCO is off their rocker and their is likely no stolen code.
2. Novell interjects: Not only that but SCO does not even have the copyright to the code they claim is stolen.
3. SCO rebuts: Yes we do.
4. Well IBM should settle since the code is obviously stolen.
I do not know what 2 and 3 have to do with getting from 1 to 4, but this is the strange path which seems to have been taken on
Currently the arguments circulated by SCO about Linux and the code transfer from Unix read like the film script of an IT variant of Dallas.
Daily, new companies and experts announce their opinions.
Some, like Novell, have serious points, others like Lindows spread hot air.
Both IBM and SCO, in their billion dollar suit, have ordered their technicians to maintain strict silence, as have Novell.
There, even the lawyers involved with the SCO contract refer to a statement from their legal department prohibiting them from discussing the matter.
There is also some deeper gossip. Many developers have quietly expressed their surprise, that the code and technical information generated for the Monterey project, supplied by SCO to IBM, could be at all rewarding for Linux:
Disbelief faces the suppliers. Any real proof over the Cut & Paste allegations by SCO is missing, until the code is revealed.
Now Christoph Hellwig has unexpectedly become an in demand figure.
The German software developer worked at Caldera (the old name for SCO) as a code maintainer and was part of the team, concerned with patches and bugfixes for the Linux Kernel.
Later they developed the Linux ABI Project further, which allowed implementation of unmodified Unix programs, making it possible to run software written for UnixWare and Open Server, under Caldera's Linux.
At present Hellwig is busy with SGI.
While Hellwig worked at Caldera, he commented on the relationship of SCO Unixware and Linux.
Hellwig explained at that time, copying from Unix code to Linux and vice versa were impractical:
"the Internals of the Kernels are so different that one would need a big glue compatibility layer. And that will promptly, with the next kernel review, be ripped apart."
Now that Hellwig's comments are widely discussed. We have reason enough to ask about their relation to this case.heise on-line: Do you stand by these comments?
Hellwig : Naturally.
heise on-line: SCO compared the condition of Linux with that of a bicycle, until IBM came along and then the project became a car.
Hellwig : The comparison may sound beautiful for people without any specialized knowledge, however it has purely nothing to do with reality.
Linux existed before the commitment of IBM, before the participation of large enterprises in it's development for which, in most areas of application, it was substantially more useful than UnixWare or Open Server ever were.
I see the participation of large enterprises in Linux development as a very positive move.
I do not consider it meaningful however, to place the desires of these enterprises ahead of the development of the official Linux releases.
Large enterprises tend to be inclined to be satisfied with technical solutions which are suboptimal, and to neglect areas of application which do not offer sufficient sales opportunities.
heise on-line: Will SCOs actions be successful?
Hellwig : I doubt that SCO will succeed in the legal sense with this action.
On the other hand SCO is already now successful in the sense that the share price rose and they have received other financial injections (for example the Microsoft Deal).
As long as SCO does not possess the rights to SVR4, SCO can only sue IBM for for publishing trade secrets.
Proving this will be very difficult, I don't need to say any more on that.
Something which is continuously forgotten in the debate:
Contrary to SCO, I do not refer explicitly to Unix.
Unix a registered trade mark of the OpenGroup, which any certified operating system may use, it is common use of language for any UNIX95/98 to be referred to by the term, and never, specifically to designate SCOs operating systems, Open server and Unixware. Which, as opposed to AIX, are not UNIX98 certified.
Economic Left/Right: -0.62
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.69
"To Novell's knowledge, this amendment is not present in Novell's files"
l
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/030606/sff034_1.htm
Apparently the most telling evidence is that parts of the SCO code and Linux code include identical annotations made by developers when they wrote the programs, says DiDio, who compares such notes to the signature or fingerprint of a developer's work. "The fact that these appear to be transposed from Unix System V into Linux I find to be very damaging."
Now, who in the hell at IBM would be stupid enough to include identical source code 'annotations' (which I'm assuming are comments) when stealing code?
Similar annotations, maybe, but come on - even Joe Dumbass wouldn't be so fucking stupid so as to copy-and-paste proprietary source code from one to the other, comments and all.
Further, does SCO have proof that the infringing Linux code is indeed the egg? (i.e. was SCO's code even written first?) Who's to say this case should be about a GPL violation?
To imply that IBM's developers are so stupid as to copy and paste code simply begs the question, from their own logic: Who's to say that SCO's developers who weren't so bright and pulled the copy-paste job from Linux? Who's to say that SCO didn't put the source code in there themselves, intentionally. I mean, that scenario seems more likely to me: Linux source code is freely available. Nobody outside of SCO will have seen SCO source - and if they have, they're tied and raped with NDAs.
Anyway, that's enough. Here's to SCO choking on its own arrogance.
...
After reviewing the affidavits of Plaintiff's and Defendants, experts, a great deal of uncertainty remains as to what trade secrets Net2 might contain. One fact does seem clear: the header files, filenames, and function names used by Defendants are not trade secrets. Defendants could have printed these off of any of the thousands of unrestricted copies of Plaintiff's binary object code. (Kashtan Aff. at 9-11.) Moreover, the nonfunctional elements of the code, such as comments, cannot be trade secrets because these elements are minimal and confer no competitive advantage on Defendants. The copied elements that contain instructions, such as BREAD and CPIO, might perhaps be trade secrets, but Defendants' experts have argued persuasively that these instructions are either in the public domain or otherwise exempt. As Defendants have repeatedly emphasized, much of 32V seems to be publicly available
-- @rjamestaylor on Ello
If the free software has to survive, it will have to do one thing - cut off the damn software patent tree. It is the root of all problem. The companies are now going to the extent of patenting *problems*... without giving a single solution to them (see the european software patent hall of horror).
.
Today its linux kernel... with probably a couple of infringements (if at all)... have you thought of softwares like mplayer ? FYI, mplayer infringes on countless patents, copyrights and EULAs. Thats why it is based in hungary and not US or some other EU country. And you won't be able to do a single thing if its developers are sued. No amount of crying will help because copyright/patent/EULA vilation is a crime in the eyes of court
If you just worry about branches, you won't succeed. If we have to get over this hell, fight the software patent regime not the companies that are using it as a tool to strangle the freedom of people!
- mritunjai
XXX 12:04 est 2003-06-06
Blake Stowell says that Darl McBride and Chris Sontag will be talking today.
XXX 12:05
Darl McBride talks about the Novell announcement of May 28, 2003. "In fact, Novell does not own the copyrights." "SCO is the only rightful owner of the Unix System 5 source code and copyrights." "Portions of the Unix System 5 code were found in Linux." "Linux users need to obtain opinions from their own legal counsel."
XXX 12:07 Question and Answer session
[question #1] Peter Gally, eWeek magazine
Q: share price was up 29% today ahead of announcements of news. What do you attribute that to? A: "I can't really comment on that." Q: "Did you or any SCO executives buy or sell any shares yesterday?" A: "I personally didn't" ... not aware of any who did.
[question #2] Hiawatha Bray, Boston Globe
Q: "When Friday the 13th rolls around ... what are you going to do?" (regarding AIX license revocation)
A: "We have a number of options at our disposal."
[question #3] Stephen Shankland, CNET
Q: Copyright office does not have an assignment on file [for the Unix copyrights from Novell]. "Is it your understanding that the copyrights have not been registered yet?" A: "Stephen is correct ... [if we need] we will change the assignment of copyright ..." [we can do that at any time].
[question #4] "George Weiss", "Gartner Group" [Note: caller #4 was later exposed as an imposter]
Q: "How long can you continue to deceive investors ... if you're not trying to get bought out, what are you trying to do?"
A: "We're trying to protect our IP rights."
[question #5] Todd Weiss, Computer World
Q: "Where can we see the Asset Purchase Agreement?" A: "We have a lot of documents ... 30,000 contracts ... in the case of the Asset Purchase Agreement ... SEC filings on the Internet."
[question #6] Herbert Jackson, Renaissance Ventures
Q: "Were patents addressed?" [in the Novell-SCO asset purchase agreement] A: "Ownership of the patents was not something that SCO has ever claimed."
[question #7] Lenny Brecken, Brecken Capital
Q: "Why wasn't amendment [amendment 2 to Novell Asset Purchase Agreement] immediately available?" A: "[It was available ...] inside of four business days."
Q: "[Patent question] ... is that relevant?"
A: "This isn't a patent case."
A: "30,000 contracts .. methods, concepts, know-how ..." [that is, their 30,000 sub-licensing agreements contain contract language restricting those things]
[question #8] Roger Howerth, IP Week
Q: "Why will you not provide details [of the offending source code]?" A: "Source code is a little bit different ..." [long answer about how revealing source code would damage the trade secret status of their claims] ... "confidentiality protection"
[question #9] George Weiss, Gartner Group [Unlike question #4, this time it's the REAL George Weiss]
Statement: "I didn't ask the earlier question." A: "We already knew that" ... "I appreciate you clarifying that." ... suggestion to the fake George Weiss to drop off the call.
Q: "Are you aware of any organized movement ... to settle the claims with SCO?"
A: "I can't comment" ... "discussions with large players."
[question #10] Lenny Brecken, Brecken Capital
Q: [AIX license revocation] "Are you going to hold a CC on that date [June 13]?" A: "... on the 16th, we will take the appropriate steps ..."
XXX 12:22 Blake Stowell, closing statement
[If you want a replay, or want to followup, contact us
If there is an exact copy of some comment from Sys V and Linux can't we build a database of comments in Sys V (someones got to have the code) and a database of comments in Linux and check simularities?
Couldn't this be done with a few simple grep or sed commands?
Sure there would be alot of trivial differences, but if SCO is right and there is a complex alogrithm inside Linux copied for SysV then the comments for that code should be fairly obvious.
The RSA patents and Unisys's LZW patents both were valid from my point of view. I don't know if there were patents on Diffie-Hellman key exchange (if yes, they have expired), but that also would have been a worthy software patent. Yes, Unisys mishandled the patent badly, but the original algorithm definitely was non-obvious and innovative.
Borderline cases (that, as far as I know have not been patented): Splay trees, A* algorithm.
Of course nowadays you can get a patent on "Doing X with a computer" and "Doing X with the Internet", where X can be anything from selling candy to taking a dump.
As far as I can tell, while there are some worthy software patents, the vast majority is crap. And even the few valid patents cover algorithms that would have been developed either way, so the patent system is not "promoting science and the useful arts" in the softeware field.
Stephan
No. It's not. You're acting like the guy in "1984" who just couldn't wait to cut words out of the English language. We have perfectly good words to describe various forms of intellectual dishonesty or unauthorized duplication of works without conflating something like copying an mp3 with grand theft auto.
We don't need to resort to pretending that copying something is the same as stealing something for copying something to be wrong.
I do not have a signature