Who Opposes Open Source Software In Government?

Skapare writes "Linux Journal is doing a story with a roundup of who the players are that are opposing open source in governments. The one I find interesting is the Gates connection to BSA. But I think we all need to become familiar with this round-up of special interest groups not operating in our interests (as taxpayers)."

Comments

Initiative for Software Choice & CompTIA

[angst7]

The ISC supports four principles: software should be procured on its merits, the promotion of government funded research, the promotion of interoperability through platform-neutral standards and the maintenance of strong intellectual property protections.

Whew they really had me going 'huh?' until that last part.

---
Jedimom.com, that "not-so-fresh" feeling.

The world is changing

[mao che minh]

Politicians answer to the almighty dollar. Very few open source advocacy groups and/or companies can compete with Microsoft or UNIX vendors when it comes to lobbying. Therefore, the majority of politicians that even mention technology will often opt for closed source corporations, as they are paid handsomely to do so by closed-source interests.

It's why open source is a grass roots movement. We aim to capture hearts and minds on a fundamental and righteous level. We target the wallet second.

Open source saves the government money. Open source would create more governemnt jobs, by not only keeping existing support personnel, but also by creating openings for developers that would tailor systems to the ever-evolving government technology base and needs. It makes complete sense to switch to open source. Why we don't switch is easy to see: Microsoft gives military politicians plenty of incentive not too.

Britian, France, Japan, Peru, China and Germany are all moving to Linux and open source. Hell, some are even writing up legislation that gives incentives to businesses that do so as well. Why aren't we (the United States)?

Re:The world is changing

[SkArcher]

Why aren't we (the United States)?

You answered your own question. It is because your country has a corrupt and entrenched mass of politicians who have no incentive for doing what is good for the electorate because they don't need to do so to remain in power.

Re:The world is changing

[Anonymous Coward]

A bourgeois democracy is essentially just a tyranny of the rich.

Re:The world is changing

[Guppy06]

Do you really think that European or Asian countries would still be moving to Linux if Microsoft was based in their country instead?

Re:The world is changing

[mao che minh]

We live in a global economy of corporations now. It is irrelevant in what country a corporation resides in. Microsoft exists everywhere, and offers their coin to any government that will listen. Hell, they (MS) offered both Britian and Germany a ton of bucks to stick with MS across the board.

It isn't a question nationalism, but rather a test of common sense.

Re:The world is changing

[Hatta]

It's not money that's important. Even if open source costed more than closed source (which it might in the short run, considering training costs) we must consider the other benefits free software provides. Remember, it's free as in speech, not free as in beer.

Re:The world is changing

[anonymous loser]

Open source would create more governemnt jobs, by not only keeping existing support personnel, but also by creating openings for developers that would tailor systems to the ever-evolving government technology base and needs.

I suppose I need to ask why you think having more government jobs is somehow better than having more private industry jobs. BTW there are already people that do the tailoring you describe. Just because something isn't open source doesn't mean you can't tailor it to suit your needs. Look at the huge number of custom applications developed using excel, for example.

I'm certainly not against OSS; far from it. But, there are also cases where closed-source software can save just as much (or more) money, especially when talking about applications or systems which require a large amount of expertise to produce, and where there is plenty of competition in the market. This atmosphere leads to constant R&D and refinement of the product to the point where millions of dollars have been spent in order to keep the product competitive. Oftentimes the sticker price of such a product is more than justified by its overwhelmingly better usability, functionality, and performance. In a large organization, the number of man-hours saved using such an application over a less-efficient open-source alternative dwarfs the costs of acquisition. The only alternative is to constantly add the same funcionality, performance, and usability enhancements to the open-source version that the closed-source version offers. But, since your guys probably aren't experts in this domain, and there's not a lot of people writing open-source baking software, it is more expensive for you to develop this functionality than it is for ABC corporation. Plus, paying them means you have much fewer maintainence issues to worry about, like answering tech support questions, R&D for new features, etc.

Re:The world is changing

[The Only Druid]

"Yeah, cause the government really was going to track him down and send him to a camp in siberia."

The reprisal I was speaking of is the same one you fear: people responding to you personally and holding you personally accountable for your words. People like you [both online and in the real world] who are afraid to be known as the source of their own speech are the abusers of free speech. They cripple the worth of it, making a mockery of those who have honest things to fear for their speech.

If you're a woman in Egypt or Iran, and you're speaking out against sexism, then you need anonymity, or you may be scalded with acid, assaulted otherwise or murdered. If you're some petulant brat who wants to make some false-pithy comment about the degradation of American society, then the only purpose in your Anonymity is that which Slashdot already makes clear: that you are a coward.

Stand up for your words and be an adult, or shut the fuck up and sit down at the kiddy table.

Re:The world is changing

[FreeUser]

If you're a woman in Egypt or Iran, and you're speaking out against sexism, then you need anonymity, or you may be scalded with acid, assaulted otherwise or murdered.

I agree with your point, but have a minor nit to pick with one of your examples.

Actually, women in Iran have it comparatively good, for an islamic state anyway. Iranian femenists have managed to make compelling religious arguments based on the Koran that demands, if not full equality, at least a very fair and kind treatment, where fair in many cases not specifically mentioned elsewhere in the Koran amounts to equality before the law. By western standardsn it is still quite lacking, but women are surprisingly far better off in fundamentalist Iran than they are in most of the rest of the islamic world.

OTOH our good friends in Saudi Arabia are the worst offendors. You should read the book "Princess" sometime for a real insite into the dirty secrets of Saudi culture and its treatment of women. Women drowned in the family swimming pool (in front of a family gathering) for sexual misconduct, women stoned to death for having been the victim of a gang rape in her own home after the "gang" united behind a story accusing her of being provactive and her own brother was too cowardly to come forward and tell her parents what really happened. Women locked up in a padded cell, with no light, no converstation, and food slid through a slat in the door, for the rest of their natural lives. The latter is so common they actually have a word for such an appalling facility: "The Women's Room." Women murdered by their families for driving a car in protest of restrictive laws at a time when women from Kuwait were doing so in droves (1991 Gulf War), and this list goes on, ad nauseum.

The damn book should be required reading. The behavior of these cultures is appalling, and our political correctness in trying to whitewash this stuff isn't helpful to anyone. And we in America have supported this disgusting system for over half a century (the American people unwittingly, the American leadership, including the Bush family, quite knowingly), while making enemies of many of the reformers.

Stand up for your words and be an adult, or shut the fuck up and sit down at the kiddy table.

I disagree with this to some degree. Anonymous speech has its place and is important, even here on slashdot. More than once I've read a telling post about an employer posted anonymously to protect the identity of the whistle blower. We would have been poorer for it had the post not been made, or been made non-anonymously resulting in the person losing their job or insider status. However, you are right to decry the abuse of anonymouty, where cowardly children say inane things without having to stand by their words, and I share your irritation with such imbecels.

Let them jabber away, but, as you say, seat them firmly at the kiddy table.

Re:The world is changing

[TFloore]

we must consider the other benefits free software provides. Remember, it's free as in speech, not free as in beer.

Look at what the federal government has been doing since Bush got elected in 2000. You seem to be operating under the incorrect assumption that the Bush administration cares about freedom of speech.

Actually, I don't think the Bush admin really cares either way about freedom of speech, but from his actions, I'd say Ashcroft finds this whole 1st/4st/5th amendment stuff really annoying, and would be happier without them.

Yes, I'm aware this discussion has been primarily centered on state and local government, not federal government, but you have to look at what priorities are for the people in charge. And once you start assuming corrupt politicians are running the game, you have to toss out the notion that they support freedom of speech and other nice things like that.

As a guess...

[Black Parrot]

> Who Opposes Open Source Software In Government?

To a first approximation I'd guess it as "those who've been paid to do so by companies who view FOSS as competition".

More important thatn OSS in .gov ...

[i.r.id10t]

... is open standard "document" formats. I don't care if Uncle Sam or anyone else chooses to use Microsoft (or any other) software. However, anything and everything that The People have access to must be stored in an open format that The People can read with the software of my choice. PDF, XML, plain text, latex, postscript/ghostscript, PNG images out of a scanner, dead trees, who cares.

And what part of "shall not be infringed" don't they understand?

Changing software is a Big Deal

[AvantLegion]

Britian, France, Japan, Peru, China and Germany are all moving to Linux and open source. Hell, some are even writing up legislation that gives incentives to businesses that do so as well. Why aren't we (the United States)?

I think people greatly underestimate the amount of effort, blood, sweat, and tears it would take to "switch" (so to speak) a government agency (let alone a whole government) to Linux.

The old adage applies: if it ain't broke, don't fix it. While some would no doubt argue that Windows-based systems are "broke", the fact is that government agencies somehow manage to make their computers crunch numbers and store data on Windows machines.

In general, taking down a running, working system in order to replace it with something else is always a risky move. It is never something to be taken lightly.

Hopefully, Linux can work its way into US government agencies, because it has a lot to offer. But acceptance will be necessarily slow, and we should not expect otherwise.

We can praise the nations that throw caution to the wind and roll out Linux rapidly. But we should not be so negative to those that take a more cautious stance. Linux is NOT a perfect beast, and it should surprise no rational person that it is, at this time, treated as "the devil you don't know".

Re:Changing software is a Big Deal

[73939133]

But get this: they're managing to use it! A certain degree of fault tolerance exists within any system, and clearly Windows does not fail often enough to make a change necessary. Perhaps one might be desirable due to potential benefits, but it is not necessary because the work *is* getting done.

Sure, it is "necessary": money spent unneccessarily on one thing is not available for spending on other things.

It may not be "necessary" to overthrow a dictatorship, and it may be easier in the short term not to, but in the long term, it's a good idea, and it's a good idea to do so as soon as possible.

Legislators shouldn't be deciding this... period.

[SirTwitchALot]

The decision of which software to use should not be made by legislators, it should be made by people experienced with the technology. Mandating the use of open source only limits choice. Bills that mandate that open source be considered are less damaging, but pointless, since if an open solution exists that is viable, a smart engineer will consider it. I work with government clients all the time, and as much as I like open source software, some of it just doesn't meet the needs of my client, for open source software that does, I am more than happy to recommend its use. It's about finding the best tool for the job, not the one that best fits my political views.

Open source should be mandated.

[Hatta]

They asserted "no law exists to prevent the state from acquiring open-source software now" and no law is needed to enable them to do so.

Seems reasonable yes? Anything that does the job should be allowed to compete. Certainly. But in the case of government the question is "what exactly is 'the job'?". The government (ostensibly) exists to service the public interest. The public interest demands that our government be independant from corporate influence. Commitment of government to a closed source solution provided by a single vendor gives this vendor undue influence over governmental process. The public interest also demands that our data be accessible now and into the future. Clearly closed data formats cannot provide this. Finally, the public interest demands that government computers be secure. Without access to the source code it cannot be proven that there are not back doors providing access to sensitive government data.

So the question when evaluating a piece of software, say, a database, for governmental use is not just "Is this the best database" but "Is this the best database that ensures data accessability and security without tying us to a single corporation." Only open source software can provide these important considerations.

Note that this is not "discrimination" against closed source vendors. Any company can provide software to the government, as long as it satisfys these requirements.

Re:Welcome to the wonders of "democracy"

[gfody]

word.

I think the answer is to provide a dummy option on all ballots designed such that people that don't know better would be more likely to pick it.

take the slashdot polls for example:
"Whats your favorite breakfeast?"
a) cold pizza
b) cold cereal
c) cowboy neil's underpants

lots of people dont understand what cold pizza or cold cereal even are and would rather vote cowboy neil's underpants as their favorite breakfeast because they think its funny.

when using the results to determine which infact is the most popular breakfeast cowboy neil's underpants is discarded and the stupid-vote eliminated.

Level playing field? Why?

[73939133]

Each opponent asserted the playing field was level and open-source legislation would introduce unfairness into the procurement process.

Why should free software and commercial software be treated equally? What does this have to do with "fairness"?

I give my government lots of money. I have a right to expect that they don't buy commerical stuff if there are reasonable free alternatives. If they do go out and buy something commercial, they should be required to document carefully the reasons for their choices.

Even if the free software were to require larger IT staffs (which it doesn't), I'd much rather see my tax dollars go into salaries for local government employees than disappear somewhere in Microsoft's bank account up in Washington state soemwhere.

Re:Open Source software is useless

[commodoresloat]

If everyone would simply get on the same page with the correct FSF interpretation of FREE SOFTWARE, advocacy of FS would be much more effective.

If everyone would simply get on the same page and interpret FREEDOM the way I tell you to, then advocacy of freedom will be so much more effective.

Re:our interest?

[glenebob]

"...it's a security risk beyond measure if people could see the source..."

When will people realize that truly secure software is not compromised in the least when people see the code? In other words, if seeing the source gives a hacker a leg up, that code is either buggy or poorly designed. Period. It's that simple.

Is Linux perfect? No. Is any reasonably complex software perfect? No. But open source does at least as much to help the people trying to secure the code as it does for the people trying to break it.

On a separate note, the government is the last place I want to see closed-source software used. I feel that as a citizen of a democracy, I have the inherent right to see what's being done and how.

Re:in our interests (as taxpayers)?

[dbrown]

Just for the record, I also work professionally with computers. I make shrink-wrapped software for a living.

This is not about politics. This is about ensuring that tax payer money is used as efficiently as possible by requiring that all options have been evaluated. Legislation like this does not force a particular choice. It merely forces that all options have been considered before making a decision.

Commercial software has marketing, sales teams, and slews of paid people backing it up. Open source software has none of this (outside of your local OSS zealot). Open source is often very viable for many situations, but it goes unnoticed because it has no marketing or sales teams. In my mind, legislation like this levels the playing field. It at least gives open source a chance of being noticed.

I don't agree that software costs are "in the noise". This is definitely not the case for public schools. A school district can easily have 1000+ computers. If one piece of software costs $50 per seat, thats nearly two teacher salaries just for that single piece of software. Imagine the cost savings between a full installation of MS Office vs OpenOffice for a school system.

I fully support legislation like this. I don't want my tax money going to a commercial software company just because their sales boy is charismatic. As a tax payer I want the most for my money.

Re:Open Source software is useless

[Feztaa]

What you don't seem to realize is that before the OSI came around, nobody took Free Software seriously. RMS may be a great coder, but he's an awful advocate for his own stuff.

ESR took that same Free Software, slapped the name "Open Source" on it, and started marketing it. If it weren't for that, so called "Free/Open Source Software" wouldn't be anywhere near as prevalent as it currently is.

It's simple, really. RMS appeals to your idealism, and not many businessmen/politicians are idealistic, so they don't buy into it. ESR advertises the advantages and the reduced costs, which is what people are really interested in.

In short, shut up and show them the code.

ah, you are confused.

[twitter]

The Chinese have the source code to Windows. Their having the source code to our most popular OS is a national security risk. In response to this we should move everything to open-source... Hey....are you working for the Chinese?!

First, Microsoft said it believed this was a national secruity risk. Their sale is therefore willful treason, regardless of the facts.

Second, the fact that our enemies have access to information our own government does not have compete access to really is detrimental to US security. China can and will give that code to all the people they think they have to in order to find weaknesses to exploit. The NSA can only go so far in protecting against those attacks because Microscrew continues with their "fork" and new sofware is being deployed on government desks all day long with windoze updater. It's doubtuf that the NSA or anyone besides Microsoft can keep up with all the different versions of software that gets put on those computers, so any weakenss the Chinese find will have a high probability of sucess. Windoze is fragile enough without help from professionals representing one of the world's most repressive regiems having the source code to understand exactly how random expoits found work.

It should be obvious that free software levels the playing field and alows everyone to help fix the problems. The results are already in because we know that IIS gets broken all the time, but free software is not.

Why is someone called 'Software Choice' against OS

[GrimReality]

One of the groups opposing the use of OSS/FS in government is Initiative for Software Choice & CompTIA of which Microsoft is a member. The guiding principles of this organisation are (from the article):

... software should be procured on its merits, the promotion of government funded research, the promotion of interoperability through platform-neutral standards and the maintenance of strong intellectual property protections.

Firstly: 'the promotion of interoperability through platform-neutral standards'??? I am confused. Microsoft has become the member of a group that advocates 'platform-neutral standards'???

1. Wasn't it Microsoft that has been trying to lock everyone into a specific platform (win32-x86)?
2. Isn't it Microsoft that insists on breaking every standards and RFCs to gain 'platform lock-in' and other benefits --or simply because they didn't care.

Secondly: Isn't the idea to check out open-source too, a way of adding more 'Software Choice', so, why would they be opposed to government adding open-source to their candidates for purchase/use???

Am I reading this wrong, or did someone start the Infinte Improbability Drive (sorry Doug)...

Thank you.
GrimReality

bullshit, in so many ways.

[twitter]

The decision of which software to use should not be made by legislators, it should be made by people experienced with the technology.

The technocrats are the ones pushing the bills, legislators are the ones with doubts.

Mandating the use of open source only limits choice.

No, it does not. Software companies are free to open their code at any time.

Bills that mandate that open source be considered are less damaging, but pointless, since if an open solution exists that is viable, a smart engineer will consider it.

That does not mean that he can use it. Vendors must be aproved in order for state employees to purchase things. The process of aproval is Byzantine at best and one that does not work well for free software that may not have a vendor at all. Bills that free state employees to use software they want to use would be a Godsend.

I work with government clients all the time, and as much as I like open source software, some of it just doesn't meet the needs of my client.

That's hollow. Name one thing that propriatory software does that free software does not besides interoperate with propriatory software. In those rare instances, a purchasing agency can claim "sole source vendor" and make the purchase and those are looked on with susupecion.

It's about finding the best tool for the job, not the one that best fits my political views.

This IS about finding the best tool for the job . Free software is almost always better than it's closed source counterparts. Free software, in part, helps to avoid vendor lock in, a very real goal of state purchasing laws. Legislators have already decided they don't like getting raped by vendors. Vendor lock in always results in a lack of legitimate competition and inferior goods in the end.

The only political view that you need to have is a belief in full disclosure in state afairs. From honest discource, function and trust flow. Indeed, it's the closed source view of the world that requires the most radical assumptions. It requires you to believe that you don't own your computers, that you should be so very greatful that your computer does a few things and you agree to limitations on your use of that computer, that you pay absorbedent fees instead of developing your own solution, even that you will never even attempt to understand how the program works. That kind of nonsense is not accepted in most government purchasing, where complete honesty and accountability through inspection is required. The closed source software companies, which have only existed in their current form since the early 1980s, has a lot of nerve to try to impose these conditions on the public and call it IP rights.

Re:as taxpayers!?

[stoborrobots]

Occassionally american stupidity shows through...

The US is BOTH a republic (because Dubya is an American), and a democracy (because the head of state is elected by the people, loosely speaking)

Don't be confused by the fact that your political parties are the Republicans and the Democrats...