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Ageism in IT?
Embedded Geek writes "It's hardly a new topic, but BBC is running a story about ageism hitting Gen-X, especially in IT. As a 34 year old coder, I was horrified to hear a quote from a *hiring manager*: 'In the IT sector (and coding in particular) younger minds generally work faster -- I would rather employ a keen teenager who code programs computers quickly than an older person.' It didn't help that the person is 32 years old. My kneejerk reaction, the same one anyone else over 30 would have, is that the guy is a buffoon (I'll withhold my preferred, spectacularly vulgar, term). The problem is that I do not believe his idiocy is unique - I have definitely felt the vibe when interviewing. It's frustrating, since Gen-X is finally shedding the media hyped 'slacker' stereotype only to run headlong into this garbage. Have any other Slashdot readers seen this? What is the youngest you can be before some PHB declares you fit for the scrap-heap? Other than stocking up on hair dye and botox, what steps can I take to prepare for the future? Share your war stories here." Ask Slashdot handled this topic over two years ago. Of course, this behavior could be explained away as economic concerns, as the decision to hire younger (and typically cheaper) employees can directly affect the bottom line. However, one has to wonder if the decision to go with less experienced programmers also affects software quality, in the long run. What are your thoughts on this subject?
Or a new bunch of people becoming old enough to experience it. I'd feel worse about it if the people who are starting to experience age-based discrimination weren't the ones benefitting from it a few years ago.
'I ain't a liar, baby, and I ain't proud I just want what I'm not allowed.' -- Violent Femmes, 36-24-36
Give me a seasoned vet who has the depth and breadth of experience to have learned all of those "only happens once every x years" type of lessons over some young, fast coder who has yet to learn these lessons.
"I'd rather be a lightning rod than a seismometer." -Ken Kesey
Its easier to sqeeze 80+ hrs out of someone with out kids, house and a wife.
Managers look at ages 18 - 25 as people they can abuse. They are inexperienced so they won't stand up for themselves, and usually aren't married so they can work them 60 hours a week for low pay.
Religion is a gateway psychosis. -- Dave Foley
There are two sides to every coin. I'm a manager of five developers and six support staff.
In my experience, younger people tend to work like dogs until it stops being fun for them. They will pull all nighters all week when you're trying to launch a product, won't need to leave early for soccer and little league games, and won't get in trouble from their non-existant wife for leaving a few minutes late.
On the other hand, older coders tend to work at a more steady pace, have fewer errors, and spend their time thinking about something before they start jamming out code. They also are more reliable at showing up on time, not burning through vacation and sick time the second it becomes available, and following through with their committments.
It isn't really fair what that manager said, but I think they might have experienced some of what I just mentioned above. Although things like that generally aren't to be said "out loud" behind closed doors you'll hear many people talking about things they have observed managing people.
What's the best solution? A balance of both, in my experience. You need an effective mix, an although young people can be great coders and older people can be off sick, those are the general trends I've seen in seven years being a manager.
You have to remember that you are there to solve your employer's problems. If he's looking at someone to produce 1,000 lines of code per hour then you wouldn't be interested in the job anyway. You want to work somewhere focused on quality over quantity, and that is probably more biased to older more experienced developers in many cases than younger folks.
Case
While it may be true that people that learn the piano at a younger age are better that one who picks it up later in life, it is also true that a person who has been playing the piano all their life is better that a young person just starting out. I think the same holds true of software. In all the jobs I've worked at recently, the younger programmers are quick to take advantage of my experience, even if they are quite good themselves. I've been programming for 30 years and I've learned a thing or two in that period. Of course, old age and cunning will overcome youth and skill.
Today is an ephemeron, doomed to the crypt of yesterday.
Other than are you at least 18, employers shouldn't be allowed to ask my age. They can't ask about my sex, race, religion or ancestry except on an anonymous affirmitive action survey. Age should be no different.
How ya like dat?
When I was fresh out of college (a little while back) I ran into something related. My boss definitely preferred me for the fact I was youngest and he probably perceived my general energy as also being faster at programming. But I also ran into another problem. Here's an example:
It's a late Friday afternoon and we've got plenty to do, but with plenty of time. The boss tells me he wants the work done for Monday morning instead of the extra week we were originally told we had. The older developers with families told him they weren't staying late Friday, they were going home. I told him the same, but he replies, "Why? You don't have anything better to do." Apparently since I was young and didn't have any family I had no reason not to work more. I was fuming and I didn't work late. He tried to pull that crap a few more times after that.
So not only are younger minds quicker, but apparently they're also easier to manipulate and take advantage of.
Developers: We can use your help.
I'm a piano teacher, and a computer scientist.
For the most part younger kids learn piano better simply because they put in the time and are willing try new things. My adult students often progress much faster than my younger students. Its only that most adults also have complex lifes already and can't put in the time a little kid can. My adult students that have trouble tend to do so because they are afraid of the piano. I must admit, however, that some young minds can simply make unbelivable progress for no single reason other than natural talent.
I think the same thing transfers to Computer Science. For the most part if you have used computers for years you are not afraid to try things. Many adults are very afraid of computers. Kids simply explore and enjoy them.
I think Gen X'ers get the rotten deal in all of this. The generation before them WAS worse at computers at an old age. This is no longer true since many Gen X'ers have had computers since Commodore 64 or earlier. It will take another generation before this is ammended.
And for all of you programming divas just realize that programming isn't a "god given talent" and neither is piano. You simply put in the work, do what you love, and good things come from it. Don't think you are special for it, because no matter how good you are there will always be an 11 year old asian girl who is better than you'll ever be.
-Rob
Senior members are far more respected in the field of law, because it is understood that the older a lawyer gets, the more experience they have; concordantly, the more experience they have, the better a lawyer they are.
What does a lawyer do? Pretty much the same thing as a programmer. A good, experienced lawyer will have a specialty area of law, but be able to learn about new legal arenas as the need arises; likewise, an experienced lawyer will know the ins-and-outs of a specific arena in the legal system, including exceptions and loopholes a younger, less experienced lawyer might miss.
Same goes for programmers. An older programmer, generally speaking, will be more sensitive to over-using resources, will have a better grasp of programming methodologies, and will know about many more former bugs and programming mishaps than a fresh-out-of-college CS grad.
--
I Hit the Karma Cap, and All I Got Was This Lousy
Why hire young?
Younger IT workers will often put in absurd unpaid overtime, where most older workers won't.
Younger workers just out of college will often take a job at a low salary for the experience. Older workers won't.
Younger workers are often have more exposure to cutting edge tech than older workers who cut their teeth on cobol, jcl and basic.
Younger workers have lower expectations about benefits, perks, salary, etc than older workers who can remember the 'good old days' of 5 years ago.
Older workers are more likely to have children, families, in short lives. Younger workers are more likely to drop everything and fix that server at 3:00 AM.
Older workers have seen many managers pull many tricks, know how to spot them and how to deal with them. Younger workers are generally more pliable.
=brian
Younger minds work faster but older minds work smarter. I have both working for me and the young folks may be holding larger and more diverse constructs in their minds, but the older ones are holding well-tuned, more efficient constructs in theirs.
Programmers with experience in applied programming (multi-user online systems as opposed to single-user applications) have learned lessons and developed tricks that young minds haven't. Both types have their advantages, but there's no reason to discriminate against the 30-year Cobol vet just because he's not going to pick up Java as quick as the 2-year web-slinger. He'll show you a thing or two about efficient data processing once he figures out how to apply his knowledge to the new syntax.
They should be teamed together, if you really want to get anywhere -- the older players will want to retire eventually, and the young pups need to have a model and mentor to get their lessons in
Pianos haven't progressed to 2,000 1mm-wide keys, or introduced three-dimensional keyboards, or decided to have little-endian keyboards with the low notes beneath your right hand fingers, or added green keys above the white keys, or added a Dvorak mechanism placing the most commonly played notes beneath your fingers.
Composers haven't introduced new semi-tone notes, located between B and B-flat, or decided to portray their music to the pianist in XML format. They aren't asking pianists to play notes in 2400MHz tempo, or even to get those albums cranked out before they go home for the weekend.
My point is that computer technology has changed dramatically from the time I started learning it (1973.) And I mean really, truly changed. Yes, there are certainly technological advances in pianos, keyboards, music and notation, and I don't mean to slight the skills of any pianist regardless of whether or not they have learned new technologies. But very few of those changes really alter how a pianist plays. The changes in programming have been fundamental. Everything I learned back in the '70s has been almost completely thrown out or changed (except for one thing -- the keyboard.) If I never learned more than what I knew back then, if I didn't keep up with new technologies and new development methodologies and instead kept writing assembler code filled with GOTOs, I'd be almost useless. It's more likely that I'd be mopping floors for a living.
Younger minds may or may not absorb information quicker, but that's not really the point. If people don't keep learning in this business they quickly become irrelevant, regardless of age.
John
With all due respect to Andy Hertzfeld, he probably didn't have nearly as much to think about when he was younger. By the mid-40's, the average programmer probably has a family (with birthdays, soccer games, tuitions, recitals, etc.), 1 or more mortgages, a stock portfolio of some sort that's only now getting the attention it really deserves, some insights on those political issues that were so unimportant before, some project management and perhaps budgeting, a health condition or two just starting to require some real attention, etc.
What the average 40-something has to make up for all of that is some perspective on what makes the most efficient code and use of his/her time, a deliberate pace of work, 20 years of experience, less emotional drama, maturity, stability, etc.
I'm a flight instructor, and it's easy to see where the illusion that young people learn better/faster comes from. Despite the popular notion of today's youth, they're not as cynical or as questioning/probing of your instruction as adults are. As an example, if I tell a 16 year-old kid that when you bank the airplane to the right, there is an initial yaw to the left because of a phenomenon we call "adverse yaw," he'll probably say "OK" and correct for it on the controls. If I state it so simply to a 40 year-old student, he'll ask why. So who has learned it better? The kid is immediately compensating for its effects, and is flying the airplane properly a bit sooner; but does he know why he's doing so? The adult understands the reasons behind the correction; but has delayed implementing the knowledge because of the time spent questioning.
Over the course of learning any complex task, these moments add up to a perception that the adult isn't learning as fast or as well as the younger person. In fact, they are. You simply have to tailor your training and your expectations for the difference in approach.
Hot Damn! It's the Soggy Bottom Boys!
We're still working with Von Newman machines, with (roughly) the same architecture that Charles Babbage described around 1850.
I've been programming since I was 8 years old (I'm 26 now, that's 18 years of experience), and I feel confident that I can program in any language, paradigm, or technology. And not because I know every technology out there, but because I finally grasped that programming has nothing to do with computers at all!
Programming is not about knowledge of a particular technology or set of algorithms. It has more to do with a particular form of abstractions you build in your mind.
Learning how to do that took me a long time (almost my whole life), and I still have lots to learn.
What you must find in a programmer is that ability to create an abstract representation of a complex problem.
A younger programmer might find it easier to write the code immediately, but probably he will produce twice the ammount of code necessary for the task, with at least twice as many bugs.
An experienced programmer foresees problems that lie ahead, that might pass unnoticed to the novice.
So, bottom-line, the secret of success lies in experience...