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Culture Clash: SCO, OpenLinux, Linus And The GPL
hobsonchoice writes "SCO has issued a letter saying SCO Linux customers won't be sued. The same does not seem to apply if using a non-SCO distribution such as RedHat." LightSail points to the SCO letter itself, and raises an interesting point: "If they approve the use of 'their' IP in Linux in a single kernel, then the GPL holds that IP SCO allows to be used by a select few must be freely released to any and all. It appears that all Linux users everywhere were just given a license to continued use of Linux even if SCO would win their suit with IBM." And Haikuu writes "eWeek recently posted an interview conducted by e-mail exchange with Linus Torvalds regarding his recent move to the OSDL and the SCO suit."
If I can be modded down for being a troll, can I be modded up for being an orc, or a balrog?
It continues to seem that most companies simply don't believe that the GPL is a real license. It's as if they think that secretly free software authors "don't really mean it" when they explicitly define rights and restrictions in a license.
It's almost as if the GPL is too "far out" and too liberal for anyone in corporate America to really believe it's real or take it seriously; they seem to think they can just pretend like it isn't there and the courts will wink and understand. As more and more cases end up in court (as the SCO case looks like it will), I wonder if we'll start to see a shift away from "those free software kids don't have a REAL license, this GPL thing is just a toy" to "these are dangerous commies that threaten our entire economy and for that reason the courts must ignore what they're doing and side with us!"
Sort of like the end of segregation and the Vietnam war protests in the US, both things that much of the older generation simply couldn't understand beyond "those silly kids and their silly ideas" and later "those god damned subversive kids and their dangerous ideas..."
if they are allowing Caldera linux users to continue as it is, I'm fairly certain that as a GPL'ed product, if SCO determines they are going to release their linux kernel as a proprietary object with or without open source, they're opening themselves up to hundreds of lawsuits from kernel developers who haven't licensed that action.
In SOVIET RUSSIA... erm...NSA AMERICA, the Internet logs onto YOU!
A couple thoughts spring to mind:
1. What the HELL were you protesters thinking by putting your arms around this guy and turning it into a photo-op for him? I mean, the windows refund day fiasco was bad enough. But are we serious about protesting or not?
2. The more I read, the more I think this is going to come to a legal test of the GPL.
3. As someone has already pointed out, it's a fine line between granting a license and choosing to not enforce copyright violations from their own customers. It's assinine that they could even suggest their own customers are violating a copyright by using software which THEY sold to them, but it will make for a very interesting legal battle.
4. Does anyone have any stories of how Linux customers of other distributions are being damaged? Of how other Linux-derived companies or employees are being harmed? I think it's time to create a mailing list somewhere of people who feel they are being harmed by SCO's actions.
Of course SCO Linux users won't be sued. There are too few to make it worth while.
Sorry about the writing. Robot fingers, you know? Cliff Steele in DOOM PATROL #23
Man, just as soon as SCO shoots itself in both feet during the past couple of weeks, it finds a third foot, and shoots that.... ....oh wait... that's not a foot.... ....ouch....
Interviewer: SCO alleges that you need to focus more on getting clarification as to where the code that goes in the Linux kernel comes from.
Linus:I allege that SCO is full of it.
Call me old fashioned, but I like a dump to be as memorable as it is devastating - Bender
Sideshow Bob: The following neighbourhood residents will not be killed by me: Ned Flanders, Maude Flanders, Homer Simpson, Marge Simpson, Lisa Simpson, that little baby Simpson...that is all.
[Homer runs up to Bart's room]
Homer: Woo-hoo! Did you hear that Bart? Heh--oh...
The anti-GPL crowd likes to talk about how the GPL has this power to "force" people to do things, like some kind of animated chainsaw that turns on its owner. Now the anti-SCO folks are using the same argument? Sorry folks, that's not how it works.
The GPL is simply a means for a copyright holder to grant others the right to copy under certain circumstances. It can't "force" anyone to do anything.
If the Linux kernel is a derivate work of SCO's (or more likely, certain PARTS of the kernel are derivative works), then SCO can simply claim that ALL copies of the Linux kernel are infringing copies, and ALL public distributions of the code are copyright violations.
The GPL was placed on that code by someone who was not the copyright holder. That person would not have the right to license the code at all. So you'd have to just ignore the GPL, and treat the code the same as if you just downloaded the Windows 95 source code from somebody on Kazaa.
SCO can also say, well, since we don't want you to have to go to all the trouble of deleting your OS, we'll sell you an end-user license and so forth, for $50. Otherwise we'll sue you. Aren't we nice and friendly? And we'll pick and choose who we want to sell licenses to, and who we want to give them to for free.
They certainly wouldn't allow distribution by anyone under the GPL.
The GPL simply falls by the wayside, since the copyright holder (SCO) NEVER INTENDED to distribute the code. It doesn't matter that they were already distributing it, they can argue that they were duped into distributing it because they didn't know what was in it.
The GPL does not have any magical power to bestow freedom on anything it touches. Especially someone ELSE'S code.
(This is assuming all the bullshit SCO is putting out is actually true.)
must be freely released to any and all. It appears that all Linux users everywhere were just given a license to continued use of Linux even if SCO would win their suit with IBM.
That's not what it means. Nobody can unintentionally make their software GPL through 'infection'. Instead, it means that SCO has just formally violated the GPL and should now be sued for copyright infringement by anybody and everybody who owns copyrights to any part of the Linux kernel. In particular, Linus could generate lots of press by suing SCO for copyright infringement. He might get some good coin out of it too; $3.1-billion ought to do it.
No, emphatically not.
GPL applies to copyright'ed materials only. If SCO have other form of IP protection (such as patent, or, as they in fact claim, trade secret) the the GPL does not even interact with it. And see below.
Further, it is possible for SCO to liscence their copyrighted code such that all thier customers may use it. That does not make it GPL'd.
The GPL only applies upon redistribution - it is quite valid for me to link in code written under any sort of liscence to the Linux kernel. However, I may not freely redistribute it unless I can meet all the restrictions on it. From the GPl, section 7:
Granted, it is talking principly in terms of patent liscencing, but that's inconsequential.
As a case in point, conside the NVIDIA binary drivers. If you have an NVIDIA card, you have a liscence to use that copyrighted code. You do not have a liscence to re-distribute NVIDIA's code. Yet you may link the two systems together, just fine, provided you don't try to redistribute the combined work.
Now, SCO redistributing binaries from their ftp site, _after_ they make claims about thier code being in Linux is a whole different kettle of fish. That's a different issue however.
How much suffering would you have to endure before you'd use Caldera on all your servers to make it stop?
At this point, I think it would take me and my loved ones being flogged with bundles of stinging nettles that have been dipped in hot sauce and rolled in salt, while listening to Celine Dion sing that Titanic song accompanied by an orchestra of bagpipes. In Hell.
There are two kinds of sysadmins: paranoids and losers. I'm both kinds.
To 'hold harmless' is far different than a grant of license. Although the analogy in the parent is somewhat misleading, the point is absolutely valid. Eseentially, SCO is agreeing to exclude customers of it's own linux distribution from any future legal action.
The big question is, what constitutes a SCO customer? Must I have purchased SCO services with my download of the SCO linux distro, or can I simply make use of their distro to avoid the threat of legal action? How much of the SCO distro must I use?
Perhaps I should install a few packages on each of my Linux boxes, so as to avoid the the threat of lawsuits.
As I re-read this, it appears the letter is only directed to current and ongoing SCO partners. This suggests that possibly, not only would I have had to have purchase SCO services but I would have to continue to pay for SCO service contracts indefinately into the future. Then again, IANAL, so perhaps I have misinterpreted the legal implications of this letter.
--CTH
--Got Lists? | Top 95 Star Wars Line
Same deal with GNU software. I rely on the GPL to know that my code is going into the public pool. I do it as a hobby and I don't get paid for my time, so my one recompense is knowing that some jerks can't steal my hours of labor. I give them as a gift for all the world and that is good enough for me.
When these "SCO" big-shots start attacking the GPL I take it personal, and so does anybody else who has written for Linux and GNU. I'm certainly not writing code to make SCO rich. They don't pay me, they don't like my "philosophy", well they can go piss up a rope because I'm getting tired of them walking all over the GPL like it somehow doesn't apply to them because they are "big-shots." Bullshit! They are a bunch of crack-heads if they think they can pull this swindle off. They got big balls, I'll give them that, but their big balls are gonna get kicked hard.
Clickety Click
Ha, I pity SCO with their static IP!
I have dynamic IP.
Yesterday I owned the rights to Wireless Toasters, and the day before it was me who invented a certain sort of plastic sheathing suitable for undersea cables, tomorrow it may be me who invented tcp/ip!
Oh the excitement of dynamic IP...
graspee
Like a lot of people around here, I've been watching intently as I perceive something that seems to represent freedom to be under assault from a bunch of greedy and self-serving corp-lawyers. Taking a step back, I've begun seeing this as a good thing because this is exactly the kind of threat that the GPL has been begging for over the years: a battle for legitimacy. Did you think that testing the GPL was going to be a small potatoes deal? The way it's playing out is perfect: a single-minded company wants to pull itself out of a GPL-induced (I'd say, given their Caldera competence) downturn, and an opponent who can well afford the time, money, and expertise to fight this without weaseling out into a settlement. Well, I hope for that last part, but you know what I mean.
Counterintuitively - and not a little bit idealistic about the legal system's ability to judge without outside influence - perhaps the thing to do is to root for SCO a little bit. Egg them on with false love! Give them a hand up the hubris ladder! Kneel down as they fawn over their petards! Make this the fight that covers many bases as possible so that these things we seem to share an attachment with are the stronger for it.
When I was a kid, we only had one Darth.
What have you got to say for yourselves now, dumbasses? This may not contain the exact stuff that they're all worked up about (although it sounds like they want to claim RCU entirely), but it is a patch for source that does contain the offending material and therefore a derivative work.
Well, what SCO Products might be affected by the GPL and IPL?
If you, like me, are running Linux *anywhere* (and I'm running it nearly *everywhere* I can) SUE THEM for $10,000 in your local small claims court. They won't show up, they won't defend themselves for such a small, nuisance suit, so they won't lose.
But can you imagine the impact of 5,000 of these kinds of suits?
I'd be willing to provide the hosting space for a site that instructs and coordinates this kind of effort.
I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
The source is still on the server, only its location is obfuscated a bit. It seems to me that the move to remove the kernel is just an issue of trying to appear that they've been irreparably damaged. I'd offer to diff from the mainstream kernel myself, but I'm on my laptop which has a tiny, tiny amount of storage space.
Marxism is the opiate of dumbasses
Redhat can make the same claim that SCO is making about distributing Linux code. "We didn't know that code was in there." If not even SCO knew the code was in there when SCO was distributing Linux, how could Redhat be held liable?
If they attempt to sue a Linux company or a linux user for using Linux, they will have to reveal in court, in public, all duplicated code in question. Once that happens (if this duplicated code actually exists), you can bet your $$ that code will be gone from Linux in less that 12 hours.
SCO continues to shoot itself in the foot with its public statements. let's review two sections of the GPL:
"b) You must cause any work that you distribute or publish, that in whole or in part contains or is derived from the Program or any part thereof, to be licensed as a whole at no charge to all third parties under the terms of this License."
"4. You may not copy, modify, sublicense, or distribute the Program except as expressly provided under this License. Any attempt otherwise to copy, modify, sublicense or distribute the Program is void, and will automatically terminate your rights under this License. However, parties who have received copies, or rights, from you under this License will not have their licenses terminated so long as such parties remain in full compliance."
SCO could have claimed that since they did not know of the alleged code, that they have not granted rights to that piece of code by distributing it. however, they have stated that they knew months in advance of the lawsuit of the alleged code, and continued to sell and distribute their Linux distribution. They have also continued to distribute their Linux distribution via FTP, and now, they prove in this letter that they know they have distributed the alleged code to their customers, and are planning to hold them harmless instead of removing it from their distributions.
So, we have two cases:
1. That SCO has granted rights to the code in question under the GPL by knowingly distributing it. In this case, they have no case against anyone but the original infringer.
2. That SCO has not granted rights to the code in question under the GPL. In this case, they have voided the license to distribute the kernel under the GPL, and have been knowingly stealing Linux, as they have no other rights to distribute it under. Their announced plan for the future is to continue stealing it for benefit of their customers. They could be sued by everyone who has contributed to the kernel for stealing their IP.
So, SCO is simply doomed regardless of the validity of their case.
However, if you've been reading the daily SCO articles and interviews, the whole stolen code thing is just misdirection and FUD. What they are really claiming is that anyone who has touched an invention to System V has not only given SCO rights to that invention, but has given up their own rights to that invention. This is simply madness, but this is their claim. This is their basis for claiming non-SCO technologies like IBM's JFS, and claiming that hundreds of thousands of lines of code in Linux are infringing. The sheer audacity of this claim, that they exclusively own 20 years worth of other people's inventions, is probably why they have avoided seeking a temporary injunction, because they would have to make this argument in court immediately, and it would never hold up. They want this to drag on as long as possible in hopes their slander and libel against Linux pays off on its own.