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Anti-Patriot Act Movement Expands

MFS! writes "Mount Shasta, California has become the latest city where the USA PATRIOT act is creating a controversy. This story at the Record-Searchlight describes petitioning by a local citizens' rights committee to order police to defy the PATRIOT act. To date, 3 states and 130 cities have passed legislation forbidding local authorities from cooperating with federal PATRIOT requests, not to mention the numerous businesses who are taking pains to hamper the Act's coverage."

12 of 671 comments (clear)

  1. federal vs. state. by garcia · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Ok, so three states have passed anti-PA legislation?

    What about California's (and others) medical pot legislations? Do the federal drug agents care when they storm into these people's "gardens" and prosecute them to the full extent of FEDERAL law?

    Hell, do the Federal agents care when they destroy the Native American's HEMP fields (which were allowed under a law in the late 1800s?)

    NO.

    State's rights (which should be more important) aren't shit. Remember that.

    1. Re:federal vs. state. by pla · · Score: 5, Insightful

      State's rights (which should be more important) aren't shit. Remember that.

      You make a good point, but need to also consider what it takes on a local level for the feds to enforce the patriot act.

      By forcing noncompliance, local areas can remove most of the teeth of the Patriot act. Businesses and libraries deliberately getting rid of client information after 24 hours removes most of the privacy-stripping portions of the act. Local police refusing to cooperate with the feds on Patriot-act related investigations leaves the feds with no more power than they had before. Entire states deliberately hindering federal investigations can, in many situations, leave the FBI et al in a worse position than before the Patriot act (when local police would often help as much as possible, even if they didn't need to).

      So yes, this seemingly "only symbolic" protesting by states, cities, and private businesses does have the potential to make the Patriot act all but meaningless.


      What about California's (and others) medical pot legislations?

      If you followed it, you'll notice that Ed Rosenthal received a whopping one-day sentence, of time served. Even the Federal courts have started realizing that they can't sustain a war against their own member states.

    2. Re:federal vs. state. by sebmol · · Score: 5, Insightful

      1: If the constitution doesn't say anything, it's up to congress.

      That's not quite what the constitution says. The founders put rather strict limitations on the power of congress and enumerated its specific ressponsibiliies. It also stated that all powers not enumerated in it would belong to the states.

      In reality, Congress has assumed more power out of the interstate-commerce clause which led to minimum wage and other labor standards, social security, etc.

      --
      "Light is faster than sound." - "Is that why people tend to look bright until you hear them speak?"
    3. Re:federal vs. state. by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Actually Lincoln did alot of bad things during the Civil War.

      Lincoln suspended habeas corpus. Ordered the arrest, jailing and deportation of Congressmen and reporters.

      The Army was sent into New York City during the 1863 draft riots to put them down.

      There were more than 13,000 arrests of Northern civilians during the war after Lincoln had suspended the writ of habeas corpus, including dozens, if not hundreds, of newspaper editors and owners who were critical of the Lincoln administration.

      In 1862 there was fighting between federal soldiers and settlers and the Santee Indians of Minnesota. At the end of the hostilities 303 Indians who were present at the conclusion of the fighting were arrested, imprisoned, and scheduled to be executed after military tribunals that lasted about ten minutes each. Lincoln was fearful that the European powers might be encouraged to be more supportive of the Confederacy if they learned of a mass execution of 303 men whose guilt had not been proven beyond reasonable doubt, so he pared the number down to just 39.

    4. Re:federal vs. state. by rking · · Score: 5, Insightful

      the Native Americans have a treaty to grow hemp. It wasn't a law (although it should have been considered so)...

      I thought that "This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding."

      Saying that treaties aren't laws seems hard to reconcile with them being part of the supreme law of the land.

    5. Re:federal vs. state. by cellocgw · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I am SOOO glad I was born in Canada.
      Why don't you folks hurry up and conquer us? I for one could use a new gov't, not to mention a little more respect for hockey.

      It's either that or my kids'll have to emigrate just to 1) avoid the draft, 2) get access to reproductive health care, 3) escape Ashcroft, 4) marry whomever they want.

      --
      https://app.box.com/WitthoftResume Code: https://github.com/cellocgw
    6. Re:federal vs. state. by IWannaBeAnAC · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Laws (or constitutions, or treaties, or whatever) mean only what the relevant powers interpret them to mean. I didn't quite understand the implications of this when I was younger; I used to think "yeah, the bill of rights, the constitution, these are good things to have, put it all down in writing and make it concrete. No room for ambiguity."

      The opposing situation is countries with no [explicit] bill of rights, rather some form of unwritten convention (even 'ideal'? Is that word too embarrasing to use in the 21st century?). This I think covers most other countries, where the constitution has less prominance (I am Australian, and I can confidently say that *no one* has any more than a vague notion of what it says - for good reason actually, it is a very boring document mostly talking about how Queen Victoria of England agrees to delegate Her power to the Australian Parliament), and there is no explicit "bill of rights" as such, rather the notions are embodied across a much wider scope, and it can't really be pinned down to one place. It is not uncommon to see stories of USA school students complaining to someone (headmaster, school board, whatever) that something that is imposed upon them violates their rights under the constitution[footnote]. The notion of involving the constitution in such a matter is actually quite ludicrous to an Australian (any Aussies out there, please argue the case if you think I am wrong). Not because those rights don't exist, but because they exist at more levels of society. Call it a sense of "fair play" or whatever you will, but it is far more important than the Constitution.

      The point is this (and maybe this is even irony - until the last week I thought I had a fair idea what that meant, but I don't think so anymore): Having an explicit, legally intepretable document only allows the lawyers the excuse "we were only following the law" when they come up with some narrow interpretation that flies against the popular notion of what the spirit meant.

      On the other hand, if there is no such written document, there is no room for argument over the interpretation, the only guide is the *spirit*.

      The real question is, which system is more open to long-term abuse? Unfortunately I cannot predict the answer to that. The answer to the question of which system suffers more short/medium term abuse is, I think, obvious.

      [footnote] (and I think this is *real* irony) Undoubtably, Australian minors have more actual rights than US minors.

  2. Re:Why hasn't this been shot down in the by sebmol · · Score: 5, Insightful

    One word: standing. The Supreme Court only hear cases where the parties have standing. That means, some damage has to be done to you as a result of the Patriot Act. The Supreme Court does not test laws for constitutionality without a plaintiff who has standing.

    Here's the trick though: if you fall victim to the Patriot Act, you may not have access to the judicial system. That means, you will never get a chance to challenge it in court.

    This is considerably different from many other republican systems where the highest court can often test laws for constitutionality based on a single complaint of a citizen or a branch/agency of the government.

    --
    "Light is faster than sound." - "Is that why people tend to look bright until you hear them speak?"
  3. How about the librarians? by SuperBanana · · Score: 5, Insightful

    To date, 3 states and 130 cities have passed legislation forbidding local authorities from cooperating with federal PATRIOT requests, not to mention the numerous businesses who are taking pains to hamper the Act's coverage

    How about mentioning some of the loudest critics- librarians. Most are madder than hell about the Patriot Act, and politicians are finding that going up against librarians(which are seen as by the public as incredibly smart, among other things) isn't very popular. From some of our youngest years, librarians have earned a place of respect as wise, intelligent, helpful, kind people.

    Most libraries now display signs at checkout desks and computer workstations warning you they can be forced to turn over information about what you check out etc....and most also now destroy those records on a daily basis, paper or electronic.

    And, as Peter Jennings pointed out with a smile on his face, your local library is a great place to sit down and read a copy of the Patriot Act. The librarians will be more than happy to assist.

    Folks- libraries across the country are suffering from budget cutbacks just like everyone else. If you think it's awesome that librarians are on your side against the Patriot Act, might I suggest helping them back by volunteering? Think outside the (computer) box too- help reshelf books, read to kids in the children's library, etc...

  4. Re:Nice Legislation system you have there! by rajafarian · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "We" don't make the laws. "They" do with the assumption we actually want them to. Do they ask us? no.

    While I think that may be true sometimes, I think many times they make laws because

    1. Corporations asked ($$) for them.
    2. It makes them sound like they're actually doing something for us so they can get re-elected. ("I passed a new law to protect our children.")

  5. Constitutional Conundrum by Dukeofshadows · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Civil liberties in the US are under fire now than perhaps any point since the McCarthy era. The Patriot Act serves as a frightening visage of what power-hungry legislators may serve up to placate scared populations. What frightens me more, and what I have not seen mentioned here yet, is the precedent such an act sets. This precedent is carried into this new Domestic Security Enhancement Act which would allow for government-controlled wiretapping, secret arrests, and DNA bank construction on ordinary US citizens without our permission!

    The balance between security and freedom is a tenuous one, with increased freedom permitting greater criminal activity and increased security quashing intellectual exploration and constructive criticism. Any criticism of our government is branded un-patriotic in many places (and even unofficially in the press) and may cause arguments or fights. Would the Patriot Act II, or DSEA, allow for political opposition to become targets of investigation by the ruling party? Our intellectual freedom is one of our strengths but what will happen to American society if we start to strangle it?

    There are even those who get incensed about questioning the leadership of respective parties, whether G W Bush or H R Clinton is concerned. The actions of our government of late have divided this nation moreso than any I can ever remember. We have factionalized over new attempts of the current leadership in the federal government to expand their powers to those normally resevred for wartime status. However, without a Congressional declaration of war, can these be justified? Would US citizens be forced to turn to military courts under the new DSEA legislation where appeals may not exist and due process is a formality at best?

    The first Patriot Act nearly bankrupted several states and forced reductions in education, law enforcement, education, and other areas. Another one may well bankrupt these states and damage the financial strength behind many others. Kentucky released 600 prisoners, while other states have taken more drastic measures. Thus, financially, socially, legally, and intellectually, we can ill afford this new legislation.

    If the federal government is going to continue to impose on the rights of the people and states behind them, it sets up some of the same fears and mentality that lead to the Civil War. Any government that instills fear in its own people while being unable to properly manage its resources inevitably collapses, like the USSR. We appear to be on track to a similar fate if we enact these bills so blindly. Even the original Patriot Act divides local governments to the points that the police chiefs are willing to buck the local government to answer to the federal one. There must be better ways to protect the people of the US from the (rare) terrorist event without subjecting us to such loss of liberty and rights.

    --
    As long as there is a Second Amendment, there will always be a First Amendment.
  6. Re:Nice Legislation system you have there! by Fuzzle · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Just as you would have been then. Don't make a mistake, our founding fathers were England's anarchists.