Restrictive Sales Practices on the Web?

Ed Almos asks: "I don't know about other Slashdot readers, who happen to live outside the US, but I'm in Hungary, and am finding it more and more difficult to purchase goods and services over the web. The sites are there, the money is in my account, but the sites won't sell me anything! Can someone come up with a logical reason for these policies? Last time I checked I was using the WORLD Wide Web, and there seems little point wasting bandwidth to post your website to the world when only those living in the USA can buy and/or use the product. Then again, is this yet another example of the Internet and the rest of the world becoming more and more centered on the continental USA? The final irony? I'm originally from Maine. These folk won't even sell to one of their own!"

"Here are a few examples:

IBM, Apple and Dell operate web stores that sell almost their entire range of kit, they only ship to the USA. Power Notebooks have the same policy but cite different reasons (see below). Some manufacturers have local country websites but these offer a restricted range compared to the main site.

Apple has their new iTunes system. As I am outside the USA they will not let me logon to the system.

Amazon.com are willing to sell me books but nothing else.

The reasons for this policy range from the (almost) reasonable to the downright silly. Amazon cite difficulties with warranty returns as their reason and while most of the rest won't tell me why they don't want my business Power Notebooks told me that recent anti-terrorist legislation stops them from exporting equipment. Quite why they cannot export a notebook originally manufactured in the Far East is beyond me.

Getting the kit to me in Hungary is no problem either. FedEx and UPS have local offices and if that fails there is always the Hungarian Postal Service. Shipping time from the USA can be as short as two working days, I know this because my company obtains spares from the USA for our products."

Comments

"Can't be bothered..."

[Speare]

It costs money and time and expertise to establish a world-wide shipping channel. You have to know a lot more about international trade law, and liabilities in cases of returns/exchanges/credits are much more complex.

Most small companies can't be bothered to grow that kind of capability, as the short-sighted shareholders (public or private) won't accept the large up-front cost in that kind of expansion.

Re:"Can't be bothered..."

[RALE007]

The original article cites:

...IBM, Apple and Dell operate web stores that sell almost their entire range of kit, they only ship to the USA....

IBM, Apple, and Dell are hardly small businesses, and I think the original question of "why don't they ship international?" is still valid. I also do not buy "(small) companies can't be bothered to grow that kind of capability..."

What capabilities are necessary to grow? Purchaser still pays shipping, and you create seperate national and international warranty/exchange programs. The national program is the standard warranty, international terms can be whatever you deem, eg:

"Warranty only good in the US."

"International purchasers are liable to shipping costs for returned/exchanged items..."

et cetera. It doesn't seem like much capability growth to me. Perhaps I'm missing something.

To answer the original question of "why won't they ship international" has more of a simple direct response. The poster of the original article was looking at the wrong places to buy. As stated in his original post, companies usually have a local (national, within the US) website, and an international one. If you ask the American division of Dell to sell you a computer, they will not (and should refer you to the correct division of the company that handles purchases for the location of the purchaser). Sadly many of those within a national division are unaware of their own corporations international offices.

For example, IBM (International Business Machines) allows you to select the country of your location on their webpage. To solve the authors ordering difficulties, he should visit IBM's Hungarian Website.

If he wishes to buy direct from Dell, he should see Dell's Hungarian Website.

Lastly, he said he couldn't buy Apple. I am not finding an Apple Hungarian website, but from Apple's main page I see they do have a european website, and also a site for neighboring Austria. I think if he inquired with Apple's european offices, as oppossed to inquiring the American, he could find how to have products shipped to him in Hungary.

This is not a troll, but I don't think the author of the original article has much merit to claim he cannot buy products internationally. I think he's a guy originally from Maine who doesn't speak Hungarian so he can't order of off the Hungarian website.

I think the companies listed in his example have uninformed or undertrained representatives who do not even know to refer a customer such as the original author to the Hungarian/European offices instead of simply telling him "we don't sell to anyone who isn't in the United States".

So, in closing, it's easy for companies to operate internationally, there isn't much of a "process growth" involved. Our original article poster doesn't really have a problem, he just doesn't know where to go to order his equipment. When he inquired at the wrong place to see if he could purchase, whomever he communicated with was unaware of where to direct an international customer and misinformed him that international customers are not desired.

Re:"Can't be bothered..."

[dbrutus]

What he can't get is goods that have not been released for the respective country. For instance, Apple puts out a new version of their OS but they haven't got around to updating the Magyar language strings. Well, should they delay release? No, they just don't release the product to Hungary and release it later when they've finished localizing it. Buying goods in other markets and then importing it is called grey market purchasing and is perfectly legal, if frowned upon by the manufacturer. That's what this fellow wants to do. he doesn't want to wait for the new Hungarian language instructions on the new iPod to be ready, he wants his iPod now and screw the fact he'll have to read the directions in English.

There's a real need for an expat friendly cross shipping service that will allow you to have a virtual US presence, e-mail you your postal mail, and ship your stuff further on, once it has arrived at your US address. If you can have a credit card issued to you with a US billing address nobody gives a damn that the check is drawn on a Hungarian bank when you pay your bills.

I've informally done this kind of work for a Romanian firm who needed to buy a copy of some specific variant of Fortran but couldn't get anybody to take their money. No, you can't patent it as I claim prior art but feel free to open a formal business on this plan.

Re:"Can't be bothered..."

[anonymous loser]

I also do not buy "(small) companies can't be bothered to grow that kind of capability..."

What capabilities are necessary to grow? Purchaser still pays shipping, and you create seperate national and international warranty/exchange programs. The national program is the standard warranty, international terms can be whatever you deem, eg:

"Warranty only good in the US."

"International purchasers are liable to shipping costs for returned/exchanged items..."

et cetera. It doesn't seem like much capability growth to me. Perhaps I'm missing something.

Speaking as the manager of an international sales channel, I can hopefully fill you in on the big picture.

• Here's a few items off the top of my head:
• Infrastructure. There's a lot of little things that you have to do to enable international sales. You need targeted sales and marketing materials. You have to know how much it costs to ship stuff to that country. You need access to people who speak the native language that can help you out with all the business and legal issues that crop up, etc.
• Payment. Suppose you ship off an order of widgets to another country, and the credit card turns out to be stolen, or the Purchase Order is reneged, or a myriad of other things that could go wrong with payment happens. You've basically just lost that money, with very little way to recover it. Thanks to the fact that it is an international payment, it might very well cost you much more to attempt to recover the money than the value of the sale. Of course there are steps you can take to mitigate this problem. I had an associate tell me that if I ever sell something to country XYZ, be sure that I have all the money in my bank and accounted for before I even ship anything. This works, but it's a bad solution for other reasons. As the RIAA has shown, there's nothing like treating your customers like criminals to win their loyalty.
• Warranties are not necessarily whatever you put on the box. There are laws that state minimum warranties for products, and those laws vary country-to-country and sometimes state-to-state.
• Like warranty claims, liability can be a big issue. If the product breaks and causes financial or other damages, the laws of that country take over and determine the liability of the seller. It is very difficult and expensive to sort out these legal issues and establish policies for every country in the world. If you think lawyers are already expensive, you should try hiring a specialist like those that handle international contract law. It is a major bank-buster just to do the proper groundwork and establish a beachhead in a new country.
• Customer support is a big issue. It is expensive and difficult to provide adequate customer support to the international community, especially when there are language issues involved. In this particular case the guy happens to be a native English speaker, but I can certainly see why a company would establish a general policy of not selling to some countries. Generally speaking, it's a major pain in the ass. I dunno about Dell, IBM, etc. but I want my company to provide the best customer support possible, and just the language barrier by itself is a detriment to providing a level of support I am comfortable with. Add to that issues with time zones covering reasonable business hours in the country you're selling to, shipping expenses for returns, etc. and customer support can quickly get out of control.

Sounds like a market opportunity to me

[El]

If US companies are too silly to ship to your country, why not start your own e-commerce site? Lease a warehouse in the US, have them ship to that, and then fly it over daily and fulfill your own orders...

tarrifs, trade restrictions, VAT, etc

[Vellmont]

I'd imagine that a lot of small companies don't want to deal with this sort of thing. Why a larger company wouldn't, I don't know.

BECOMING more US Centric?

[Gojira Shipi-Taro]

You do know that the US is where DARPAnet began, right? that little network that was the precursor of the internet?

Do you propose that companies that aren't prepared to undertake the expense and risk involved in doing business with every last country on the planet not be able to do business on the web?

I'm sorry but I don't see the basis for complaint in the original poster's musings. It costs MONEY to, for instance do business in Hungary, handle transactions and currancy conversions, and deal with fraud. If a particular market doesn't offer enough profit to justify the expense, that market simply isn't worth doing business with.

I'm a little suprised that Hungary is on the list of "not worth it", but perhaps that's not universal.

The web is planet wide. Not every company on the planet is obligated to do planet wide business to participate.

Word Wide Web != Word Wide Shopping

[mjhans]

Why does it mean that just because a site is on the web it must provide all its services to the entire world? The web is worldwide, not the services of each specific site.

That's like complaining that the front page of the New York Times on the web isn't world-centric (hint: it's not even US-centric, it focuses on New York)

Personal insight...

[silverhalide]

Having been in a small mail order business for quite a while, I can tell you why US companies hate shipping internationally:

It's a pain in the ass.

An international package takes at least 3 times the paperwork to fulfill. There's a 4-part customs form, customs declarations, and not to mention ungodly postage. It also screws up shipping calculations. In the US, you can safely charge a flat rate fee for shipping and that's that. You can even run actual shipping rates through the current USPS And FedEx rate tables. Now, bump it up to international shipping. You HAVE To insure everything that goes international, since the package is handed off between organizations many times if you use the US Post Office. UPS and FedEx are ungodly expensive internationally and hardly pay to use. Not to mention that many international customers don't have English as their first language making correspondance that much more difficult.

Now what about your return policy? I sure as hell don't want to be sending a call tag for $100 to get a computer shipped back to me because they didn't like it and it's broken. It's just impossible to provide the same level of customer service to someone not in the same country as you.

So if you were wondering, that's why US Companies hate shipping abroad. Canada and Mexico are a little easier since they have more relaxed borders, but still a pain in the butt.

Re:The real reason

[dJCL]

The parent is modded funny, and the best part is that the comment could be true. How many out there can find Hungary on a map? Do you have much of an idea of where it is? I've gotten the impression in the past that many in the US do not have an impression of the rest of the world(Just watch "Talking to Americans" on CBC some time, if you get the jokes )

So... Do you know where Hungary is? Can you find it on a map? Without Google?

I had a general idea when I started reading the story, and when I thought of this comment I was able to place it exactly in my head, and could even tell you nearby countries...(no hints for you!)

Enjoy!

Re:Can't buy G4 and G5 based Macs....

[Baumi]

It used to be like that when the G4 came out, but the policy has long since been revised.

To get this back on topic: AFAIK, all of Apple's online stores (it has them for various countries) only sell to people living in the respective countries, and I'm afraid the feeling in Cupertino is that the Mac market share in Hungary is too small to warrant a localized online store with all the additional costs. (Call center, etc.)
And the ITMS is, as you probably know, all tangled up in complicated European licensing issues - there's no European equivalent for the RIAA and even within single countries, the labels can't seem to agree on a common policy.

Will Amazon.com sell you DVDs? They should - there isn't that much of a warranty issue with them and I can get them overe here in Germany without any problem.

(BTW, if you're in the market for US-DVDs and Amazon won't sell them to you, try play.com or dvdboxoffice.com )

As for the earlier post that mentioned Hungary's countryside: I sure hope it's beautiful; I'll be visting Budapest a month from now. :-)

Welcome to the real world

[Anonymous Coward]

Believe it or not there actually are differences between the differnt countries in the world. Companies that don't sell to a foreign market usually do so because they have either found it to be more costly than profitable or they haven't found a reason to expand into that market. Comapnies are usually trying to make money and if it costs more to setup your company to do business in some foreign company then more than likely you aren't going to. Its not as simple as just telling UPS to ship to some country. There are lots of hurdles to doing business in a foreign country. Logistically, financially, and legally. And if anything the amount of small business transactions has improved tremendously. 10 years ago the average consumer wouldn't have bought a damn thing from some other country, even with mail order. The fact that we dont have universal commerce between all countries shouldn't surprise anyone.

I can find it

[lpret]

But I think you've hit on something that is much deeper. Many times Americans will say "So what? Who cares about country X?" (See reply at same level) but as an American who has lived overseas most of my life, I have to say that it has helped a lot. It helps you understand where everyone else is coming from, especially in regards to their view of the US. It's similar to finding out who your neighbours are down the street. It may seem trivial, but it will help you understand your neighbourhood better and also understand what they think of you (and if you're a different race, what they think in general). Knowledge is always a good thing, and once we start to understand where people are coming from, we are better equipped to communicate and create solutions instead of blunders.
/soapbox

Re:your point?

[MillionthMonkey]

Yeah but that isn't relevant. His point went straight over your head.

Just because I am visible to you over a network doesn't mean I am obligated to do business with you. The nationality independence of the web means Turkish people can buy things off Turkish sites, Japanese people can do business on Japanese sites, etc. and it works well for everybody. It doesn't imply that everyone doing business on the Internet is responsible for servicing customers from anywhere in the rest of the world.

People might have a whole bunch of reasons for limiting service to locations closer to themselves. There could be all sorts of paperwork and infrastructure that might not be properly set up to handle the transaction, or the associated overhead may overwhelm the profits from an extended market.

I don't understand where people come up with some of these strange beliefs about the Internet that they seem to have. How is it in principle any different from the global telephone network? For some reason, nobody has any common sense regarding the web, but phones don't seem to confuse people.

If I have a pizzeria in New York City and I install a phone, and you call me from Los Angeles trying to order a pepperoni pizza, I'm going to hang up on you. Having a phone number that is accessible to you doesn't mean I owe you my business. Even though you can dial my number and easily get in touch with me, there might be other problems, like the difficulty in getting a physical object like a pizza to you. The ease of the phone call hardly enters into it. "Why aren't you calling pizzerias in Los Angeles?" I'd ask, before hanging up. And that would be a reasonable response. How is having a web site any different? It isn't.

Re:The reason is

[Junior J. Junior III]

Those other guys who ship straight from the U.S to the U.K must be getting suckered all the time! Oh wait, CC fraud is about the same in the U.K as it is in the U.S.

The rate of fraud might be about the same, but have you tried looking at the legal burden of arresting someone overseas in a foreign sovereign nation vs. arresting someone a few states away? We might have extradition treaties with the UK, but to invoke it for a few hundred or even a few thousand dollars worth of fraud, every time such a crime is committed, would completely overrun law enforcement offices, making it impossible for them to deal with more serious matters.