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Human Head's Paper Gaming Secrets

Posted by simoniker on from the not-who-you-think-they-are dept.

Although some of you probably know Human Head as the videogame developers behind Rune, as well as the forthcoming Unreal-engined Dead Man's Hand and an as-yet unannounced Doom 3 engine title, but thanks to OgreCave for pointing out the company is diversifying back into board and paper-gaming with Human Head Games. This intriguing step includes "The Redhurst Academy of Magic, a new setting sourcebook designed for use in d20 System world settings and compatible with the new 3.5 edition of the Dungeons & Dragons rules", as well as a new boardgame title, which OgreCave reveal as being "Gothica: Dracula's Revenge, a two-player game set a few years after Bram Stoker's Dracula novel, where Dracula and his forces face off against Van Helsing and his allies in the streets of London." What other videogame companies would you like to see doing board/paper games?

17 comments

  1. P'n'P Rules in Computer Games Suck by code-e255 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I really dislike video games which are based on pen and paper rules, such as D&D. D&D is good as a pen and paper game, but it sucks in computer games. It's too slow, overly complicated (complexity is good, but complication isn't), and just too old.

    Most p'n'p rules are way too unfocused. They give you tons of useless spells which you don't need, skills which you probably will never use, and they provide you with lots of absolutely insignificant statistics. This doesn't really matter in real role playing games, because humans can use their imaginations to put all those things to use, but video games are more limited, so they need focus.

    What makes a good RPG system in my opinion? *Simple*, but *significant* statistics and *clearly* defined classes (if applicable), skills and spells which are *all* useful and *fun* to use.

    To be honest, I don't know many games which achieve this. I can only think of Diablo II (which is only half-way there - some stats/skills in DII are still a little useless [although the upcoming patch will probably improve on this]) and WarCraft III (that's right... I think this game whichh is mainly a RTS game, has the best RPG system). In WarCraft III, all the stats (armour strength/type, hit/manapoints, strength, agility, intelligence, damage (bonus) etc.) are significant and simple to understand. Same with the special skills/spells. There are few, but they all rock - they are useful and unique, they are fun and they look cool! Unlike many p'n'p games, the stats/skills/spells are clearly defined. The developers of this don't try to hide any facts and want the players to find out what everything does and how it works. All the player needs to learn is when to use the skills/spells - when they are most effective. I think the MMORPG EverQuest also has a decent RPG system, although definitely not perfect.

    The Baldur's Gate games and Neverwinter Nights (recent games I've played based on p'n'p rules) could have been a lot better if the developers would have created their own RPG systems, imho. Even very heavy modifications to the p'n'p rules which a game is based on is OK, I think, but very strict conversions of p'n'p rules into computer games result in failure

    1. Re:P'n'P Rules in Computer Games Suck by PainKilleR-CE · · Score: 1

      To be honest, I don't know many games which achieve this. I can only think of Diablo II (which is only half-way there - some stats/skills in DII are still a little useless [although the upcoming patch will probably improve on this])

      IMO, Diablo 2 fails more in not showing you all of the stats that are actually used by the game, and how each item effects them. As far as the skills go, well, that's more of a design issue, and I really dislike the fact that Blizzard changed the game to make some of their useless skills neccessary, rather than making the skills more useful.

      No, I don't think it's good when everyone's playing a certain class the same way when the way the game is played is based so highly on what skills you pick, but if they had beta tested out to lvl 30 or so they would've been able to balance some of those things before the game launched.

      --
      -PainKilleR-[CE]
    2. Re:P'n'P Rules in Computer Games Suck by lafiel · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Although I agree with you that D&D is slow, complex and overly complicated (especially for computer gaming), I don't think that's the reason why pen and paper doesn't seem to succeed as well in computer gaming... or that people dislike computer games based on it.

      Remember that D&D is based on character and the ability to role-play, not roll-play. Four hours in D&D could go by without any players ever rolling a single dice. It's not a combat orientated game (although it's certainly important), but a game of imagination and ingenuity. Nowhere else but pen and paper could you decide to suddenly drop a ton of water on the Golem in front of you, run up, freeze it, and then hoist it back to town and let it loose.

      Computer games simply can't keep it with something like that. You're right, computer games need to be focused... that's why games like Neverwinter and Baldur's probably would've been a lot better based on their own system. Pen and paper is simply freeform role playing...

      Pen and paper will remain where it is... a type of game that simply won't be programmed perfectly because of it's incredible diversity.

    3. Re:P'n'P Rules in Computer Games Suck by spongebob · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I disagree with your point. Those systems work perfectly fine and they are open. That similariy makes it easy for people to transition back and forth without major problem.

      If we are talking strictly RPG, what better system could be devised than a heavily playtested ruleset from the most popular RPG of all time?

      The focus you speak about is really what I see as a cutting weakness in most game designs. We try to focus the player far too much and don't encourage exploration. One of the things that makes GTA3 such a cool game is that you can play however you want. Roleplaying from a paper perspective is all about imagination, but those focuses systems like Diablo using glowing rollovers for items makes it just a "follow the glowing stuff". There is no searching just a bunch of mouse clicking. That's a cutting weakness imo.

    4. Re:P'n'P Rules in Computer Games Suck by code-e255 · · Score: 1

      Well, DII might not tell you absolutely everything, but spells/skills are definitely far more documented/easy to understand than in D&D.

      As for everyone playing classes in the same way - well, I'm not a DII expert, but I do think that there are a few different specialisations each class can go for and be effective at it. Maybe this isn't as developed as in Dark Age of Camelot (some classes have up to 3 totally different specialisation paths they can choose) or in Star Wars Galaxies (where you basically choose your own skills), but still, it's available to an extent.

      I think Blizzard have learned a lot about RPG systems, and I'm pretty confident that World of WarCraft will have the best RPG system ever seen in a computer game.

    5. Re:P'n'P Rules in Computer Games Suck by code-e255 · · Score: 1

      Spongebob, read lafiel's comment about poaring a bucket of water on a golem, freezing him up and letting him loose in town.

      In a real RPG where humans are sitting around a table, p'n'p rules are good. I only played D&D once or twice, but I'm sure it's fun if you get into it, because you can do whatever you want in those games.

      Why can't you do whatever you want in a computer game? Because giving the player the ability to do whatever they want would take infinitly long to program!

      I fully agree that games shouldn't be too focused. What I ment in my original post is that a RPG system should be focused, not the actual game. I also agree that DII is way too hack'n'slash, and that it isn't really open at all, which is why I don't really like the game. But the actual RPG system in the game is good though, imho.

      GTA3 is cool, but it's still "focused". You basically do missions, hijack cars, drive around a 3D world, buy guns and kill people. It's more than you do in DII (and, in fact, a lot of other computer games out there, so I'm not complaining by any means), sure, but it's still pretty damn limited. Computer games will stay that way for quite a while, if not forever, because (as I already said) implementing features into a computer game takes time, and one cannot work on a computer game forever.

    6. Re:P'n'P Rules in Computer Games Suck by PainKilleR-CE · · Score: 1

      Well, DII might not tell you absolutely everything, but spells/skills are definitely far more documented/easy to understand than in D&D.

      While I agree to some extent (a lot of spells in D&D were very poorly documented, at least when I played the game some 14 years ago), a lot of the documentation for DII spells/skills comes from online (website, not in-game) material and info directly from players, as you don't really get a good description from the game interface, and trial & error can lead to wasting some very much needed skill points.

      As for everyone playing classes in the same way - well, I'm not a DII expert, but I do think that there are a few different specialisations each class can go for and be effective at it. Maybe this isn't as developed as in Dark Age of Camelot (some classes have up to 3 totally different specialisation paths they can choose) or in Star Wars Galaxies (where you basically choose your own skills), but still, it's available to an extent.

      I haven't played in quite a while, so the means of building a successful character may be different now. I will say that the expansion classes seemed much more refined in this sense than the original classes, though the expansion classes seemed to peak a bit earlier in terms of effectiveness. I think the one thing Diablo II did fairly well (although it's debatable to some extent) was combine the skill system and spell system into a single system, and expand the skill system a great deal. Even if it doesn't completely make sense from a p'n'p player's perspective, it makes for a much more streamlined gameplay experience (and since many skills available to spell-based classes are not very important in a Diablo-style game, it makes the lack of real spellcaster skills almost a non-issue). My basic issue with Blizzard in this sense (and it comes up in MMORPGs as well) is that they included a number of skills/spells in the game that were basically useless, and then later (with the patch that came around the time of the expansion most notably) came up with ways to make use of those skills (which no one was putting skill points into). Of course, I may be biased because I pretty much trashed 3 mid-level characters (it would've taken longer to add in the skills than to build a new character from scratch with those skills in mind).

      I think Blizzard have learned a lot about RPG systems, and I'm pretty confident that World of WarCraft will have the best RPG system ever seen in a computer game.

      I'm not really worried about WoW, probably because I have no plans to buy or play it (not really anything to do with Diablo 2 or WarCraft 3 or any other Blizzard title, just MMO in general and the pay to play + $50 up front model). I've bought 3 MMO games (UO, EQ, PlanetSide) to date, and never played one of them long enough to start paying for them (at least with the first two I didn't pay $50 up front either, closer to $20-35).

      --
      -PainKilleR-[CE]
    7. Re:P'n'P Rules in Computer Games Suck by spongebob · · Score: 1

      Of course you are right about the limitations. We only have so much memory no matter how many servers we pick up to carry the load. We can't simulate real life and who would want to play unless it was totally the matrix.

      My main point about the D&D rules is that the calculations have been heavily tested. If you assume that they didn't just use rand() to calculate the die rolls, the system mimicks a face to face game. I would love to be able to do whatever, but it's just not feasible for people to play that way. It would be much more consuming. Just look at how much work it is to play the Sims.. (relatively speaking of course)

    8. Re:P'n'P Rules in Computer Games Suck by leshert · · Score: 1

      Diablo 2 fails more in not showing you all of the stats that are actually used by the game, and how each item effects them.

      I disagree. I personally don't like when games show me all the mechanics of how everything works. I suppose some minimaxers like it, but the world is a little bit richer when you don't have all the keys.

      For example, Back In The Day, I played Bard's Tale quite a bit. The mechanics of the game were far, far simpler than what I'd built up in my head as far as theories of what might be happening. I remember having the distinct impression that the more you used the same weapon, the better you got with that weapon; if you 'traded up' to a better one of a different type, you'd have to balance the improvement against the loss you'd take until you got experienced with it.

      I was, of course, utterly wrong. But I didn't find that out until after long, colorful, and interesting discussions with friends who also played. If the designer had laid out all the rules and tables up front, I'd have missed out on the interaction with other players. This is even more true now in the age of fan boards and players' sites.

    9. Re:P'n'P Rules in Computer Games Suck by PainKilleR-CE · · Score: 1

      For example, Back In The Day, I played Bard's Tale quite a bit. The mechanics of the game were far, far simpler than what I'd built up in my head as far as theories of what might be happening. I remember having the distinct impression that the more you used the same weapon, the better you got with that weapon; if you 'traded up' to a better one of a different type, you'd have to balance the improvement against the loss you'd take until you got experienced with it.

      I'm sure that you can find many things to discuss about a particular game without being mislead or making an assumption on a more sophisticated view of the game (hey, it's an assumption I can understand, but one that would only be true in a very small number of games). In Diablo 2 specifically, there's a little number called block percentage (or something similar), and there's always been some debate over whether the block percentage of a shield or the defense of that shield is more important. The kicker, though, is that the only place the block percentage is ever mentioned is on items/skills that increase it, you never know what your base is.

      I was, of course, utterly wrong. But I didn't find that out until after long, colorful, and interesting discussions with friends who also played. If the designer had laid out all the rules and tables up front, I'd have missed out on the interaction with other players. This is even more true now in the age of fan boards and players' sites.

      While I appreciate your enjoyment of discussion with other players, I'm sure that many were wishing that either you would realize your mistake or the designers would've made this clear. There is always plenty to discuss about RPGs (especially) without discussing whether or not certain play mechanics even exist, and their effect on your characters.

      --
      -PainKilleR-[CE]
  2. Videogame/PnP Crossovers by tony_ratboy · · Score: 5, Informative

    Back in the 80s and early 90s, it was primarily pen-and-paper and board games that made the leap to the computer game arena (and not the other way around). These include the obvious Dungeons&Dragons games, but also one or two Games Workshop titles and a couple of offerings by Steve Jackson games-- Ogre and Car Wars ("Autoduel").

    Later on we started to see conversions go the other way (as a previous poster pointed out).

    In this millenium, Steve Jackson games created a board game based on the FPS *genre* (not a specific computer game). The game is called "Frag" and has a number of expansions. There's more on Frag in an article I wrote for Shift.com last year and of course, at Steve Jackson Games' Frag page.

  3. Gothika by AtariAmarok · · Score: 1

    "as a new boardgame title, which OgreCave reveal as being "Gothica: Dracula's Revenge,"

    Watch this to collide with the forthcoming Halle Barry movie, also called "Gothika".

    --
    Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
  4. Games by Ratbert42 · · Score: 0, Troll
    What other videogame companies would you like to see doing board/paper games?

    The Sims. They could have little cars for your family.

    Baldurs Gate.

  5. Cars, and little pinheads by AtariAmarok · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Yeah... and you can have little plastic pinhead figures to go into the cars. This fits in with online Sims, where there are a lot of pinheads playing.

    --
    Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
  6. Gothica... hmm... by ronfar · · Score: 3, Funny
    Well, let's see I already have Steve Jackson's Undead and Games Workshop's Fury of Dracula , so are you trying to tell me that I need another "Helsing versus Dracula" Boardgame.

    I mean, why would I need it. I already have two. What, do I have to buy every "Dracula versus Van Helsing" game I see?

    Fine... fine, I'll buy it, but this is the last time.... I swear. If a fourth "Helsing vs. Dracula" boardgame comes to my attention, I swear it will sit on the shelf unbought.... There's no way I need four "Helsing versus Dracula" board games, what am I, a crazed monomaniac board game collector.... Um... there isn't a fouth "Helsing vs. Dracula" board game, is there? Heh, heh, I just want to prove my internal resolve against buying such a thing... really...

    Besides, no one I know will ever play any of these games. They always want to play, ugh... Monopoly... oh joy, Star Wars Monoply that's just what I want in a board game... see it's Monopoly but they put a Star Wars skin on it so you can pretend that it's a Star Wars game... arrrgh...

    --
    All the creatures will die, And all the things will be broken. That's the law of samurai. (Jubai, 1605)
  7. Human Head developer Matt Forbeck by Allen+Varney · · Score: 3, Informative

    Longtime game designer Matt Forbeck is running Human Head's paper game studio. Matt co-founded Pinnacle Entertainment (publisher of Deadlands: The Weird West and his own superhero RPG Brave New World) and has also written tons of good stuff for a dozen other publishers. I'm confident he'll do an excellent job with this new venture. (Matt is prolific in another way, too -- he's the father of quadruplets!)

  8. Human Head's previous paper-game venture by Allen+Varney · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Forgot to mention in my other post that Human Head Studios has already demonstrated its affection for paper-game roleplaying, via the well regarded publisher Atlas Games. The Rune RPG, based on Human Head's computer game, was designed by versatile designer Robin D. Laws, whose other credits include the RPGs Feng Shui, Glorantha: The Hero Wars, and The Dying Earth. (Than which a stronger contrast to Rune would be hard to imagine.)