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Risk Management For Electronics on Aircraft

Phronesis writes "M. Granger Morgan and his graduate student Bill Strauss have a nice article in Issues in Science and Technology about the risks posed by electronic devices in flight. Unlike most articles on the subject, this one neither pooh-poohs the risks ('We have estimated that reported events are occurring at a rate of about 15 and perhaps as many as 25 per year') nor exaggerates them ('RF interference from consumer electronics is unlikely to have figured in more than a few percent of commercial air accidents, if any at all, during the past 10 years.'). Instead, it presents a sensible plan for dealing with the risks that will accompany the inevitable expansion of the range of electronic devices passengers will use in flight, including cell phones and wireless computer networking."

51 of 209 comments (clear)

  1. Airline-mode? by Endareth · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Do airlines that require all mobile phones to be switched off allow exceptions for some new phones such as the Sony-Erikson P800 which provide a non-cellular Airline mode?

    --
    Disclaimer: The above comment was made while under the influence of too much coding and not enough sleep.
    1. Re:Airline-mode? by Gibble · · Score: 3, Informative

      I doubt it. Most flight attendants, and people working at the airline aren't going to be on top of technology enough to know the difference.

      Granted in a few years when the majority of phones are airline friendly, they will probably allow all phones to be used again with exceptions to the few people with older phones.

      At least I hope they do this, it sure would be nice!

      --
      Gibble: Descriptive of an emotional state in which one's mind is scrabbling for some purchase on reality
    2. Re:Airline-mode? by arcanumas · · Score: 2
      To be honest, i hope they don't. It really don't want to trust the average idiot who had enought money for a P800 and knows not how to use it, to switch it to the appropriate mode. Most likely they won't.
      And i am afraid that there are far more of these devices sold to idiots than they are to geeks.

      --
      Slashdot Sig. version 0.1alpha. Use at your own risk.
    3. Re:Airline-mode? by L.+VeGas · · Score: 2, Interesting

      God, I hope not. I avoided getting a cell phone as long as I could because I enjoy the solitude of driving and don't like to be interrupted. My employer finally forced me to carry one during all working hours.

      Now, the only time I can be free of this pest is when I fly. If that goes away too, I don't know, I might just lose it, in more ways than one.

    4. Re:Airline-mode? by confused+one · · Score: 2, Informative
      Your assuming two things:

      The airline steward(ess) will be knowledgeable to know which ones have such a mode

      The owner of the phone will remember to actually switch modes before take-off (wouldn't it suck to have a plane crash because Bob the Executive was distracted and forgot to switch the phone to Airline mode)

    5. Re:Airline-mode? by DonGar · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Seems like it would be a lot smarter if the phone manufactorers and the airlines got together to produce phones that automatically know to switch themselves off, or into airline mode.

      In theory, you could have transponders in the planes that told all devices what was currently 'acceptable' usage.

      If the standard was widely adapted, it could help with movie theatres and other similar situations.

      --
      plus-good, double-plus-good
  2. Interference overrated? by MrMickS · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Given the amount of electronics involved used in the automotive industry these days wouldn't the impact of cellphones have shown up here earlier? (Of course I'm excluding people who attempt to drive with one hand holding the handset, the other leafing through a document and steering with their knees).

    --
    You may think me a tired, old, cynic. I'd have to disagree about the tired bit.
    1. Re:Interference overrated? by Gibble · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Cars don't fall out of the sky. any intereference is easily managed since you can still control the car, despite many electronics the steering and brakes "should" always stay working.

      You in theory could lose your power steering and have it reverted to manual, but that's not a big deal and should happen since the power steering pump is still operated by the engine not the computer in most cars, you would most likely just mess up frivilous features in your car.

      But even that is extremely unlikely. Your more likely to get in an accident because you aren't paying attention to the road because of a call, than your are because your phone messed up the computer on your car.

      --
      Gibble: Descriptive of an emotional state in which one's mind is scrabbling for some purchase on reality
    2. Re:Interference overrated? by MCZapf · · Score: 2, Informative
      The electronics that actually control the running of the car don't receive any input via electromagnetic radiation, so I think the possiblity for such impact is much less.

      Airliners, as the article mentions, use microwave landing systems, etc., etc. that involve receiving signals from the outside, which cell phones could possibly interfere with.

    3. Re:Interference overrated? by Orne · · Score: 2, Informative

      I was going to make an argument about vehicle age, but I ran out of patience. Here's some facts I've been able to glean:

      For each aircraft model in commercial use in the USA, the FAA reports average ages. There are 85 different models reported, with an average (design) age of 23.5 years (not weighted by count of planes). Another site on airline safety (with counts of planes, year 2002) puts a weighted (by total planes) average of the top 14 carriers at 11.7 years. A rough guess from this is that 75% of the entire fleet is less than 13 years old (1989 with respect to the survey).

      In 2001, the Department of Transportation conducted a National Household Travel Survey , which has an online query engine attached to it. From that data, I was able to find that of the reported 196.5 million cars in the USA (that the owners know the date of ownership), 75% of all cars driven in 2001 were built after 1990 (the 11 years matching the planes). 50% of all cars in use were built after 1995.

      This matches fairly well with the age of planes in use, therefore age alone is not a factor. But then again, we should know that, because a plane has many different design considerations than an average car.

      Incidentally, a brief history of the cellphone lists that it wasn't until 1987 that the FCC opened up the 800MHz band to digital cell phone research. Standards weren't complete until 1991, and digital PCS bandwidth was officially reserved in 1994.

      You could argue that planes & cars built before that date could not take cell phone use into account. However, my gut tells me that it is the chassis of each vehicle that is the restriction... because planes are designed to be airtight, they tend to also be signal-tight Farraday cages, trapping EM inside. Secondly, cars are mostly hollow frames covered with plates and have fewer distributed sensor arrays that are critical to operation.

    4. Re:Interference overrated? by GooberToo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The age of a plane, unlike a car, has little to do with anything. Planes, unlike cars, are heavily inspected and very well maintained. Likewise, if a problem is suspected, recalled items get replaced fairly quickly. Unlike a car, where it may or not happen, and if it does get replaced, it may of been along any timeline.

      Now then, since we are specifically talking about EM, it's topic that's been fairly well understood for a very long time now. So, just because the plane may be an older design doesn't suddenly increase it's risks. After all, it's not like we're talking about the Wright Flyer or something like that. In fact, older designs also tend to be updated. This is as true for the plans as it is for the planes themselves.

      Comparing planes and cars is like comparing oranges maintained in a lab under close watch and scrutiny and apples being grow somewhere on some farm. In other words, I have no idea what the point is of the parent post.

  3. Good recommendations by TopShelf · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Probably the most useful recommendation in this article is the following:

    Developing and deploying simple real-time tools to help flight crews detect RF emissions. If airline cabins were equipped with RF detectors, then flight crews could take corrective action when strong electromagnetic emissions occurred. The utility of equipping flight crews with easy-to-use hand-held RF detectors also warrants investigation.

    Flight crews could be equipped with handheld RF detectors relatively quickly, which would not only help enforce existing FAA rules regarding inflight use of passenger electronics, but also help gather data that could form the basis of more long-term solutions.

    --
    Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
  4. Just shut yer frigging phone off for 2 minutes by stratjakt · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Every time I fly theres some halfwit who gets all riled up when he's told to turn off his phone/gameboy/laptop/pda/whatever. Like he's so goddamned important he just cant stop talking/typing/jerking off while the plane takes off and lands.

    They're right up there with the yokels who still think it's hilarious to make a joke about having a bomb, delaying the already brutal security points another few hours. "hey watch this, Clem, Ise gonna tell dem i gots me a esplosive bomb!"

    Just sit down and shut up, or drive, or walk. I have places to go.

    --
    I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
    1. Re:Just shut yer frigging phone off for 2 minutes by Tackhead · · Score: 2, Funny
      > Just sit down and shut up, or drive, or walk. I have places to go.

      Hey, look! A real live airline employee posting on this thread! :)

  5. other historical information by brentlaminack · · Score: 5, Informative
    For those interested in historical perspectives on airline accidents and the ongoing debate on the risks of electronics, see the archives of the moderated netnews groups comp.risks. It's moderated by Peter G. Neumann at sri. One can get the archive at such places as Google Groups

    Not only in-flight risks, but all types are discussed here. It's one of the more lucid discussions on the net. I've been following this newsgroup for the better part of 20 years.

  6. About time. by s20451 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    RF interference stories occur once every little while, and I hope this finally shuts up the people who say, "my cell phone couldn't possibly crash a plane, the greedy airline just wants me to use their satphone".

    It's true that your cell phone, BY ITSELF, will not cause the plane to explode and shower the countryside with flaming wreckage. However, look at any airline accident in the last ten years or so. In almost every case, a sequence of one-in-a-million flukes comes together at exactly the wrong time to cause a crash. In the article, they cite probable cases where RF interference caused the airplane to fly slightly off course, or caused errors in the flight controls. If something like that happened at exactly the wrong time, YOU BET there would be an accident, and your cellphone would be to blame.

    I'm all for paranoia in the airline industry. It's what makes the flight safer than the drive to the airport.

    --
    Toronto-area transit rider? Rate your ride.
  7. No heartbeat for you! by Endareth · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The FAA specifies that, "no person may operate...any portable electronic device on any...aircraft" unless an airline has determined that use of the device "will not cause interference with the navigation or communication system of the aircraft on which it is to be used."

    One has to wonder if any airline has tested whether pacemakers can cause interference?

    --
    Disclaimer: The above comment was made while under the influence of too much coding and not enough sleep.
    1. Re:No heartbeat for you! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      People with pacemakers are often under doctors orders not to fly.

  8. Bugs in airplane controls by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I work as a consultant for an airline, and thus post anonymously :)

    I know that an Airbus once had to restart all the control systems in the air, one by one, to get below 8000 feet. Before the restart, the plane's controls wouldn't let the pilot get below 8000 feet. If I had been the pilot, I'd demand some R&R after landing. :-)

    1. Re:Bugs in airplane controls by MxTxL · · Score: 4, Funny

      I saw this one... it's the one where Neo and Sandra Bullock have to keep the plane above 8000 feet or the crazed anthony hopkins blows up the plane. At one point the plane actually jumps a non-built section of highway and clears it to the other side. They finally beat him by standing really still during a recording and looping the video tape while they transfer all the passengers onto another plane.

    2. Re:Bugs in airplane controls by krysith · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I do wonder how many incidents of "RF Interference" have really been incidents of "I can't find the cause, so it must be RF Interference". Software bugs often cause hard-to-find problems. I have been a product manager for an RF device used in hospitals, and occasionally we run into problems for which we can't find the cause. The problem happens, then the problem goes away. I think most troubleshooters have experienced something like that. Well, we always figure it must be "RF Interference" or a "Software Bug". But frankly, we don't really know, because we can't reproduce it.
      I wonder exactly how reproducible these incidents of RF interference are. I bet if there was a navigational problem which went away when you turned off Joe Businesstraveller's laptop, that the flight crew isn't going to turn it back on to verify that it actually is the source of the problem.

  9. This could be bad for industry.... by Lord_Slepnir · · Score: 3, Funny

    If it suddenly comes out that cell phones do nothing to mess up the navigation of an aircraft, do people really expect the airlines to suddenly say "Go ahead and use your cell phones on the flight". They won't they're making too much money off of those $5 / call Airfones.

    1. Re:This could be bad for industry.... by pheared · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Oh yeah. I can't tell you how many times I had to fight someone to get to use one of those phones.

      In fact, I've never seen one used. Well no that's not true. I've seen little kids (read: grown adults) play with them for the entire flight. (Look! It comes out of the SEAT!) I thought there was talk of discontinuing them on several airlines as well.

      Just shut up and turn your damn phone off. I realize it's difficult since most people can't even disconnect while they are sitting in a movie theatre much less restrain themselves from answering (I mean, seriously, WHAT THE FUCK?), but would you mind trying to have a speck of consideration for a fraction of your day?

    2. Re:This could be bad for industry.... by jdhutchins · · Score: 2, Insightful

      They may be making some money off of their Airfones, but I doubt they make much. On most recent flights that I've been on on typical airlines (Northwestern, ATA, Delta), I haven't seen the Airfones, and these weren't old planes.

      On the other hand, if they could allow cell phones, that would probably bring in quite a few more ticket sales. "Fly (insert airline here), because you can use your cell phone on our flight!"

  10. What I'd like to see... by jdreed1024 · · Score: 5, Interesting
    The article is all well and good, and I'm glad to see that someone's finally doing objective, detailed studies of this, rather than banning devices indiscriminately.

    However, I'd like to see some sort of official ruling stating exactly which devices can and can't be operated at certain points during the flight. Ideally, this would apply internationally, too (though I'm not sure how that would be regulated, since the FAA has little jurisdiction internationally). I find extremely frustrating when one airline says a device is ok, and another does not. For example, I brough my portable CD player on a flight (a 13 hour flight) and was told I could not use it, because it would interfere with the aircraft's systems. This was on a relatively new 747-400. This was rather annoying, since on the same type of aircraft, 6 months prior to this, a different airline specifically said portable CD players (and tape players, etc) were ok.

    Ideally, the FCC, or UL, or some organization could put a little marking on the back of any electronic device to designate whether or not it is acceptable to use during flight. For example, it could be a letter system where "A" indicates that it may never be used (ie: tesla coil); "B" indicates it may be used at any time (digital watch/PDA), "C" indicate it may be used except during takeoff/landing (ie: walkman). Then, instead of having to explain to the stewardess that your PDA does not transmit any RF signals, they could simply look at the back, see the letter "C", and go on their way.

    Inconsistency in general (security checkpoints (before the TSA), airline policies, etc) is one of the most frustrating things to me as an airline traveler, and a policy like this could help solve the problem of being able to use my Palm Pilot on one airline, but not other.

    --
    There is no sig, there is only Zuul.
    1. Re:What I'd like to see... by afniv · · Score: 5, Funny

      You can use laptops anytime during the flight, except if you're siting on the left side of the plan flying east, or on the right side flying west. Mobile phones can only be used during five minute intervals the first five minutes of the hour if you in an odd numbered seat row, and at the middle of the hour if you're in an even numbered seat row. If you are sitting in a prime number seat row, don't even think about electronics, unless of course your seat letter is vowel then you can use any electronic devise if you're not using the overhead bin. The use of a Gameboy is only allowed if you're wearing shoes and flying north. Flying in any other direction requires emergency exit seats. Radios are only allowed if you leave them in your bag, stowed under the seat in front of you and you paid our cheap fee for those comfortable headsets and don't sing too loud. If you violate any of these regulations, we'll flush 'em down the blue toilet drain. Yes, even those laptops.

      --
      ~afniv
      "Man könnte froh sein, wenn die Luft so rein wäre wie das Bier"
      Richard von Weizs
    2. Re:What I'd like to see... by MathFox · · Score: 2, Interesting
      One of the problems is that the effects of Radio Frequency Interference (RFI) vary among the different models of airplanes. A Boeing 747 has mechanical steering and the pilot can take over from the autopilot when it acts weird. In a "fly by wire" Airbus the pilot may lose all control over the airplane due to RFI when it hits the controls.

      For that reason it is unavoidable that in different planes different equipment is deemed acceptable. Even a simple division in classes may be impossible because some planes may be more sensitive to certain frequency bands than others.

      --
      extern warranty;
      main()
      {
      (void)warranty;
      }
  11. This is the REAL problem.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting
  12. Frequencies of Small Electronic Devices by LoneStarGeek · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I have had small items like Walkmans, Cell Phones and PDAs checked by airport security at checkpoints before. I think they are generally looking for explosive devices etc. I wonder if there is a list of device frequencies that are verbotten on airliners? This would have to be a frequently updated list of devices for the airport security and in-flight personnel to keep track of. Seems like the communications, fly-by-wire and navigation devices would be restricted to a limited bandwidth. I know it is common practice at RC Aircraft Model flying fields to limit who has what frequency. Otherwise there would be lots of little craters in the ground when someones controls get overridden by another radio.

    1. Re:Frequencies of Small Electronic Devices by confused+one · · Score: 2, Interesting
      The limitation on RC aircraft is for the reason you mentioned -- if two people are using the same frequency then you likely end up with two self destructing (upon impacting the ground) aircraft.

      Interference, by definition, can happen even if the devices aren't in your limited bandwidth window. I've seen a 10Mhz transmitter interfering with audio equipment. I've seen a desktop computer interfere with a radio receiver. I've seen a supposedly shielded RF source (used as a frequency reference inside some equipment) interfere with supposedly shielded instruments.

      It's not a likely scenerio; but, imagine if you will: Your sitting in a seat in the passenger cabin, next to the window. Your cell phone is on and actively seeking a cell site -- transmitting at around 1 watt. In the wall (or floor) of the plane, exactly where you're sitting, is a cable (wiring) for the flight controls -- including perhaps a connector. The connector's not technically bad, but, there's enough contact resistance that it acts somewhat like a diode and rectifies the RF imposed onto the wire(s) by your cell phone's transmission. This becomes a slight DC bias in flight controls signal. Your plane crashes because the bias causes the plane's computer to overestimate the amount of fuel in the tank by several inches, resulting in an engine stall when that tank unexpectantly runs out of fuel...

      As I said, not likely; but, plausible. Murphy's Law is like that...

  13. I'm with Guy Kewney on this one by Rogerborg · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If you can detect my electronic device, please feel free to ask me to turn it off. If you can't - or won't - put a $50 detector in a $5 million aircraft, don't then try and tell me that you're as worried by stray RF as you are by Nelly Nicotene smoking in the toilets.

    --
    If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
  14. Another kind of risk: cameras by Allen+Varney · · Score: 3, Funny

    There's a completely different risk imposed by another kind of electronic device: video cameras. The risk is that passengers will tape the pilot sleeping at the controls.

  15. Re:Dialing.. Dialing.. by kannibal_klown · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Nobody's saying that. The problem is with the landing and taking off. Airlines "say" that the RF interference might mess up the ILS landing system by a few degrees or cause static on some of the electronic instruments. Normal flight isn't that instrument sensitive, but the landing and takeoff are. Sure, they say some devices might screw with the plane in-flight. In this case, "some" airlines just have a blanket statement saying no electronic devices.

    Personally, I don't think this is 100% true, but big friggin deal. I'd only be pissed if I was told my cd player or gameboy couldn't be used during thw "WHOLE" flight, but that has yet to happen to me, and I go on several flights a year.

  16. The REAL problem with cell phones on airplanes by adam613 · · Score: 3, Informative

    Although there may be a small risk of a cell phone interfering with an airplane's avionics, the people complaining about cell phone use on airplanes are at the FCC, not the FAA.

    See, when you're on the ground, your cell phone picks up one or two signals that have line-of-sight to where you're standing. This is how the system is designed. But at FL330, you're going to be in line-of-sight for many, many signals, and your phone will connect to all of them, essentially DoSing the cellular network. And since your cell phone transmits all sorts of identifying information when you use it, it's fairly simple to track you down.

    (citation: Say Again Please: Guide to Radio Communications by Bob Gardner. Can't remember the page number ottomh)

  17. Please, no! by Otter · · Score: 4, Interesting
    Do airlines that require all mobile phones to be switched off allow exceptions for some new phones such as the Sony-Erikson P800 which provide a non-cellular Airline mode?

    God, I hope not. On Amtrak, nowadays, you get five hours of everyone around you shouting into their phones*. It's a blessing that planes ban them -- I shudder to think what a cross-continent flight would be like with phones allowed. Besides, as someone else said, they have a nice revenue source from they phones that they don't want to cut into.

    * Mostly illustrating how utterly pointless their jobs are: "Mary? Mary? It's Bill! I'm on the train! Could you call Jeff and ask him if he got the fax Linda faxed to me? Call me back!" If anything, there seems to be too little white-collar unemployment.

    1. Re:Please, no! by Endareth · · Score: 2, Informative

      Non-cellular, meaning you can use all the features, except the actual phone, so no shouting into the phone.

      --
      Disclaimer: The above comment was made while under the influence of too much coding and not enough sleep.
  18. What about changing the wiring? by jdhutchins · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The article states that RF devices may induce currents in airplane wiring. I'm not sure how much commercial airliners cost, but I know it's probably well over 50 million. How much would it cost to use fiber optics instead of twisted-pair wiring? I'm sure relative to the cost of the airplane, it wouldn't be much, and that would eliminate having interference with the wires that must be run throughout the aircraft.

    I don't know how much of the concern has to do with the computers themselves recieving interference, but I don't think it's that much. People use cell phones around computers all the time, and I don't think it causes any problems.

    The only problem left then is potential interference with airplane navagation and communication systems. Again, the most critical times are when it's closest to the ground (takeoff and landing), but in those environments, I'd expect there to be a lot of cell phone usage by people in the airport, and that would (probably) cause as much interference as people in the plane.

    The pilots and flight attendants that are blaming malfunctions on passenger RF interference aren't qualified to talk about it. They say "plane is having problems, passenger is using laptop, therefore laptop is causing problems". They don't have a clue what does and doesn't cause interference, and you'd have to get someone who knows the subject to tell me that that's the case before I'll believe it.

    1. Re:What about changing the wiring? by jstott · · Score: 2, Insightful
      The article states that RF devices may induce currents in airplane wiring. I'm not sure how much commercial airliners cost, but I know it's probably well over 50 million. How much would it cost to use fiber optics instead of twisted-pair wiring? I'm sure relative to the cost of the airplane, it wouldn't be much, and that would eliminate having interference with the wires that must be run throughout the aircraft.

      You have two choices. You can fly in:

      1. a plane where every system has been individually checked, has redundant fail-safe systems, and then confirmed by 30+ years of flying, or
      2. a plane using fancy high-tech fiber network to replace 90% of the internal communications systems, using components that will be obsolete (and thus hard to replace) in 5 years, requires a year of instruction before anyone can service it, and introduces a whole new set of failure mechanisms into the system (e.g., how robust is your router to multiple cosmic ray hits)?

      I'll take old-fashioned copper wires, thank you very much.

      -JS -JS

      --
      Vanity of vanities, all is vanity...
  19. It's all about the sources... by dmayle · · Score: 3, Interesting

    So, let's see. In the first incident mentioned, testimony comes from:

    • National Transportation Safety Board
    • American Airlines
    • Allied Pilot's Association
    • Association of Professional Flight Attendants

    We're supposed to take the word of these obviously unbiased expert electrical engineers that EM interference was the cause of the error. A bunch of groups, some of which have glaringly obvious vested interests in not finding fault with the pilots, suddenly are a bunch of expert electrical engineers.

    Even if if they didn't have ulterior motives, they aren't experts in EM, and we're supposed to take their word on the matter? Obviously not... And yet, that's what the author does, by presupposing that someone looking for a straw man constitutes any sort of "proof" of incidents. There's NO way that there could be a problem with the instruments, either in hardware in software, since we ALL know that hardware and software engineers are perfect, so it must've been that guy in first class with laptop...

    While the author admits that the inflight ban of cell phones has nothing to do with interference reasons (it just makes life more difficult for the cell phone providers), he tries to justify fearmongering whithout any basis in fact...

    What a waste of a read...

  20. Common Sense... by WIAKywbfatw · · Score: 3, Interesting

    ...'RF interference from consumer electronics is unlikely to have figured in more than a few percent of commercial air accidents, if any at all, during the past 10 years.'...

    If you don't mind adding to your chances of being in that few percent then, by all means, be my guest and keep that phone/notebook/whatever switched on when you're asked to have it switched off.

    On the other hand, if you want to minimise your chances of being in that few percent, switch off your device when asked to. A few minutes with your phone/notebook/whatever off isn't going to kill you but a few minutes with it on just might.

    When travelling, your priority should be getting from A to B safely. You wouldn't deliberately stick your head out of a train window as it was about to travel through a tunnel so why take similar risks (with the safety of others and not just yourself) when travelling on a plane?

    --

    "Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg
  21. Forget about detecting RF by dcavanaugh · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The only real solution is to harden the avionics against RF interference. It is only a matter of time before terrorists use ground-based microwave transmitters with directional antennas to harass airliners on takeoff/landing.

    The very fact that FAA and FCC panic over passenger electronics is clue #1 that we have a problem and it goes well beyond the average moron with a cell phone.

  22. Can be Frontier soon.... by afniv · · Score: 2, Informative

    Some articles on a new system being introduced:

    RMN

    Denver Post

    --
    ~afniv
    "Man könnte froh sein, wenn die Luft so rein wäre wie das Bier"
    Richard von Weizs
  23. This is silly. by gte910h · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is really silly. We should be testing the avionics of planes to see if they can take RF of the differing frequencies that could bother it. If it can't, the plane should be grounded until it can be hardened to handle the RF. RF hardening is a science that the military industrial complex is quite apt at. "That's expensive, why don't we BAN USE OF the devices," cry the economically minded. In a day an age where you're in deep crap if you forget to take your pocket knife off a keychain, its quite possible to bring a laptop on a plane that can fake signals and jam avionics. Either ban laptops (yeah freaking right) as carry ons, or HARDEN THE FREAKING PLANE LIKE YOU SHOULD HAVE DONE ANYWAYS. If you're worried about RF leakage out the windows, put a metal screen over them. Come on folks. We KNOW how to shield things properly, and we know how to test if we did it properly. The test equipment doesn't cost that much (100K, which is nothing for an airline). On another rant, why don't cell base stations detect the case where the idiot is obviously up the the air? That's a problem that should be easily solvable via electronics, and not by regulation.

    --
    Want to see every step I took to start my company? http://www.rowdylabs.com/blogs/pitchtothegods
    1. Re:This is silly. by confused+one · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Ahhh, I see (says the blind man). I agree with the detector. Your right. Unfortunately, the terrorist type will always find a way. If the plane is shielded against consumer electronics, he could rig up a kW level (burst) RF generator in his luggage. (hopefully no one will try this)

      Bringing planes up to snuff shouldn't be too hard; but, most of the airlines are on hard economic times. (They asked the government for the money to add the armored cockpit doors after all -- which I think should have been their responsibility). I tend to agree with you; but, I just don't see the airlines doing this until they have to.

  24. Is Boeing listening, I wonder? by KC7GR · · Score: 4, Interesting

    That was an excellent article. Easily one of the best I've ever read on the issue. One passage in particular caught my eye.

    "But faced with the slimming down of work forces, expanding job responsibilities, and the retirement of older personnel who had specialized knowledge and experience in electromagnetic compatibility, the potential for problems increases..."

    Boeing has already laid off a huge number of engineers, more than I think they ever should have, all in the name of "Shareholder Value."

    I wonder where the "Shareholder Value" will be if the lack of one or more of those laid-off older guys, many of whom probably had all the knowledge ever needed regarding electromagnetic noise, will cause serious problems when future airliners are not properly designed, in terms of their avionics and wiring, to stave off interference problems?

    --

    Bruce Lane, KC7GR,

    Blue Feather Technologies

  25. I'm just curious by AchilleTalon · · Score: 3, Interesting
    and ignorant. So, I am asking the question. What about few thousands RFID tags in luggages and litterally stuffed in all goods in a not so far future?

    And a little bit lazy, I must admit, to search the web for technical info on RFID tags, frequencies, modes of operation, range, etc...

    So, if someone else and knowledgeable can answer it, I will be glad.

    --
    Achille Talon
    Hop!
  26. Wow, it's like 9-11 never happened by roystgnr · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Shouldn't the threshold for airplane sensitivity to RF interference from passengers be much higher now that we've realized the possibility that any of the passengers may be malicious and suicidal? If we're worried about stuff like CD players that is designed to run for hours with minimized EM emissions, then aren't we completely vulnerable to electronics of the same size designed to put 100% of their power output into EM interference, to do so in a big burst at the worst possible time, and to superficially look just like any of the other electronic gadgetry that gets by airport luggage screeners with no trouble?

  27. Of AM Radios and Chaff, and Cell Phones by G4from128k · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Regarding a cheap portable RF emissions detector: get an AM radio. They are nicely sensitive to the pulsed and chopped energies emitted by digital electronics.

    Regarding shielding: airlines could mix in chaff (strips of metal) into the plastic used for aircraft interiors. This would deaden the RF environment inside the aircraft and prevent strong reflections and concentrations of RF energy in inappropriate locations. Of course, it would kill cell phone reception once you step inside the plane

    BTW, Cell phones should not be used at gas stations either. Some analyses suggest that an actively transmitting cell phone could create a coronal discharge from the metal on a car that could ignite gasoline fumes. Its not very likely to happen, but the consequences are none too pleasant.

    --
    Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.
  28. It's not the wiring - from a private pilot by noahbagels · · Score: 4, Informative

    The problem is (mainly) not due to wiring.

    The problem is in fact that the radio navagation aids 'navaids' operate at low frequencies and use geo-displacement / frequency modulation as part of the navigation method. The most common example, the VOR, or 'very high omnidirectional radial beacon' sends out a radially sweeping signal at 3600hz. This is such a low frequency that it can be affected by non-primary frequencies in small electronic devices. For example: CDMA/TDMA cellular phones, while operating at (at least one of them) 1900Mhz (AFAIK), they have polling frequencies that could be very close to 3600hz.


    I would really like it if GPS was the primary navaid, but it is not. GPS was just recently approved (in the last two weeks) for IFR approaches, and until now, it wasn't even legal to conduct a full flight to commercial minimums (I think it's Category III ILS) - making it useless to commercial air carriers. Further, it's going to take the FAA at it's current rate, over a decade to convert the terrestrial navaid approaches and nav plates to include GPS routing and approaches.


    Thus - here's just one example, where it's not the routing, and hopefully this will clear up the radio frequency problem... When I take off with my CFI into IFR (clouds, zero vis), I guarantee you that we both turn off our cell phones! (and that's in a 4 seater cessna 172)

  29. Fiber is difficult on aircraft by bscottid · · Score: 2, Informative

    Fiber is very difficult to certify for installation in aircraft due to the requirements of the physical environment. Its a challenge to get a mix of materials and connectors that survive the vibration, temperature range, and humidity requirements specified by the FAA. Its even harder to get the right mix to operate in the worst-case environment with acceptable loss.

    I worked on a project to put an entertainment system that used fiber optics on planes. Although we qualified some fiber that could survive the environment, the materials that allowed it to do that failed the smoke & toxicity tests when burned. And since it was an entertainment system, we could ignore the fact that it might stop operating under some conditions - something you wouldn't want to do with critical flight control systems.

  30. FAR 135.144 has an exception by p_trekkie · · Score: 2, Informative

    135.144 Portable electronic devices.


    (a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, no person may operate, nor may any operator or pilot in command of an aircraft allow the operation of, any portable electronic device on any of the following U.S.-registered civil aircraft operating under this part.

    (b) Paragraph (a) of this section does not apply to -

    (1) Portable voice recorders;

    (2) Hearing aids;

    (3) Heart pacemakers;


    (4) Electric shavers; or

    (5) Any other portable electronic device that the part 119 certificate holder has determined will not cause interference with the navigation or communication system of the aircraft on which it is to be used.



    Pacemakers and hearing aids have an excpeption... although I'm surprised to see that electric razors and voice recorders specifically do as well...