Slashdot Mirror


SBC Hit with Antitrust Lawsuit

mrtaco01 writes "Four Internet service providers have filed an antitrust suit against SBC Communications, alleging that the Baby Bell unfairly inflated wholesale prices for high-speed Internet access."

21 of 209 comments (clear)

  1. How is this illegal? by mandalayx · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The suit, filed Thursday in the U.S. District Court for Central California, claims that the rate SBC charged the companies for digital subscriber line (DSL) service was too expensive for them to resell profitably. Linkline Communications, Inreach Internet, Om Networks and Red Shift Internet Services are seeking $40 million in damages and a discontinuation of alleged "price squeezing" from SBC, according to the court filing.

    Attorneys for the California ISPs say San Antonio-based SBC must discontinue its pricing system in order to give smaller companies a chance to compete for DSL subscribers.


    Looking at the way the article was written, I get the impression that some ISPs are suing SBC for providing a service which was hard to resell at a higher price.

    In other industries, this is known as not having a good business plan. I'm unaware of how this is illegal and wanting clarity on this issue..

    1. Re:How is this illegal? by banzai51 · · Score: 5, Informative

      The problem is that SBC owns the lines going to your house. SBC also sells DSL access. So they open it up to everyone like they are legally supposed to, but then start jacking up the prices so all the other DSL businesses go under. This leaves SBC as the only DSL provider in your area. Prices and restrictions on users go up. Not good for the public that has to pay more money for less service. This type of behavior crowds out good ISPs like Speakeasy.

    2. Re:How is this illegal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      This is also known as 'bait and switch'...

      What you aren't reading is that SBC conned all these ISPs into jumping on the DSL bandwagon, and signing up thousands of DSL subscribers...

      After they did all the leg work, SBC then lowered the price they offer the public. Hence making it too expensive for the ISPs to compete with SBC (since they still are paying the old rate, they actually pay MORE for 'wholesale' DSL access then SBC is selling to the public for)

      Part of the problem with DSL is that the OWNER of the copper last mile has all the advantage. Even though you may be buying DSL Internet from any one of a half dozen ISPs, they ALL rely on SBC to get that last mile. Hence, they have a monopoly.

      The courts allowed them have this monopoly, on the understanding that access was fairly given to competitors to 'resell' those facilities at a fair price.

      Droping your retail price below your wholesale price doesn't seem very fair, and since it was the FCC that mandated this (ie, they made it a law), that is why it is ilegal.

    3. Re:How is this illegal? by panda · · Score: 4, Insightful

      In other industries, this is known as not having a good business plan. I'm unaware of how this is illegal and wanting clarity on this issue..



      It's because ISPs and phone companies operate in a regulated market, and not a free market. Telcos are pretty much required (for the moment) to offer wholesale access to their lines to competitors at a rate that is fair because the telcos usually have a monopoly on the lines in a given geographical area. This was all spelled out in the Communications Reform Act of 1996 in the USA. It is up to the regulators and the courts to determine what is fair pricing, and these things are usually determined by lawsuits such as this.



      --
      Just be sure to wear the gold uniform when you beam down -- you know what happens when you wear the red one.
    4. Re:How is this illegal? by mblase · · Score: 4, Insightful

      In other industries, this is known as not having a good business plan.

      Actually, in other industries, this is known as falling victim to a monopoly. That's why it's illegal.

    5. Re:How is this illegal? by jchawk · · Score: 5, Informative

      That and keep in mind that Bell was originally granted a monopoly on the phone system and it's building was subsidized by your tax dollars.

    6. Re:How is this illegal? by ekidder · · Score: 4, Interesting

      In many (most?) cases, SBC is reselling their lines at a loss, considering that they are still the ones that have to maintain the line. The states have a pretty strict control over how much SBC can charge for lines (being the ILEC and all) and most states have kept that at a low rate. (Illinois is about $16, I think). SBC would probably be happier with it if the ISPs were also paying to have the lines maintained.

    7. Re:How is this illegal? by wulfhere · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I work at an ISP that resells SBC DSL. The problem is, we are paying $34.95 for each DSL line to a customer. SBC is turning around and selling DSL for $29.95.

      As if this weren't bad enough, we have documented cases (but not enough money for a lawyer, yet...) of our customers being contacted to switch a week after they turn up with us. You see, we have to enter customer info into SBC's database to place the order.

      And speaking of SBC's database, did you know that it returns different copper distances for SBC vs. the ISP? We have had customers whose loop was not qualified for service be contacted by SBC a couple weeks later and be able to get service.

      All the telco's abuse their power, but SBC is one of the worst.

      --
      -- Sent from a computer.
    8. Re:How is this illegal? by Krow10 · · Score: 5, Informative
      Blockquoth the poster:
      How is speakeasy a good DSL provider ?
      Speakeasy is a good provider because they offer a reasonable terms of service without charging "Business Class" prices. Most ISP's charge more for their business class, not because of the terms of service, but because of the Quality of Service requirements. Speakeasy's QoS for their SysAdmin offering is the same as BellSouth's home user, so they don't charge an arm & a leg for it.
      Those people will only sell me SDSL at 119.99$ month where as bellsouth provides ADSL for just 49.99$.
      Oddly, I had the same thing in my case. I tried to order from Speakeasy when I moved into my new house, but Verizon couldn't find a loop that would do anything but SDSL. I went with cable for a while. Then I get an offer from Verizon -- three months free ADSL. I order it, and like magic, they find my original loop can do ADSL (yes, maybe there were changes upstream. And maybe they just didn't try when I wasn't ordering from their service provider.) I get good xfer rates. I log my rates over two months and then I order Speakeasy. Since I now have proof that my loop can support ADSL, Verizon has no choice. So, I pay $15/mo more for my service, but I have a sane terms of service.
      Just because those people advt run your ownserver doesn't make them good.
      Not everyone wants that. I do. I'm willing to pay a little more for that than for standard connectivity, but there's no good reason I should have to pay Business Class prices for it. Speakeasy is the only provider who offers this in my area. When someone offers a service that you want, for a price you are willing to pay, and nobody else offers the same, that does make them good.

      -Craig
      --
      Corollary to Clarke's Third Law: Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
    9. Re:How is this illegal? by BrynM · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Linkline Communications, Inreach Internet, Om Networks and Red Shift Internet Services are seeking $40 million in damages
      Speakeasy is a good provider because they offer a reasonable terms of service without charging "Business Class" prices.
      I happen to be a customer of one of the litigants, Om Networks (known to me as Omsoft - the article got the name wrong). Before Omsoft, I was an SBC customer. Like some Speakeasy customers, I went with Omsoft for the business class service at regular rates as well (I have web and e-mail on a static IP). Not only did they offer better customer service than SBC (they are local and I can even go to their offices if I had to) and a Static IP address, but they seem to know how to run a company. SBC made me feel like I was inconveniencing them by being their customer. Every time I had to call SBC (they screwed up the PBX a couple of times), they had this "We wish you wouldn't call us unless we told you to buy something" attitude. It seems SBC doesn't have to care because they will get some of my money whether I like it or not.

      Omsoft service is a remarkable contrast to SBC and in my opinion worth every penny - even with the SBC price gouge. I got an error from their proxy server and sent an e-mail requesting removal from the proxy. Guess what? They did it and replied to me the same day. Link problems? I just give them a call and we troubleshoot it together - which brings up another point: They don't treat me like an idiot. Run your own server? Omsoft encourages it and sees it as a way for their customers to learn technology. It's like having a local "mom and pop" ISP again. I value Omsoft and would be pretty disturbed if SBC ran them out of business with price gouging tactics. I think I'll give my ISP a call tonight to congradulate and encourage them.

      --
      US Democracy:The best person for the job (among These pre-selected choices...)
  2. Less Time For Other Suits by ThatDamnMurphyGuy · · Score: 4, Informative

    Good. This will mean they should have less time for suing people using frames in websites, erm, I mean "Structured Document Viewer".

  3. This will lead to lower broadband pricing? by MtViewGuy · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I think this case could have a big precedent if the plantiffs win.

    It could mean that your installed DSL line could have several different choices of ISP's instead of just the ISP officially supported by the telephone company, which will lead to price competition and eventually monthly pricing more akin to dial-up pricing (e.g., US$20 to US$22 per month unlimited access).

  4. Competition by marekk · · Score: 5, Informative
    I for one would love to see more 3rd party DSL operators/licensees in my area. A year ago, with SBC the only DSL company in town, the price was $49.95/mo.

    Just two months ago, with the addition of the first 3rd party DSL provider, SBC dropped their price to $29.95/mo (which I was able to sign up for).

    Granted, this wasn't due solely to the entrance of this 3rd party, but also high competition between Time Warner, the local cable modem supplier. The dramatic decrease in the pricing though just goes to show how good competition is for the consumer.

  5. I'm happy with it. by Creepy+Crawler · · Score: 5, Interesting

    We lived about 15000 ft from the CO, and we wanted DSL. We called them, and instead of saying "GFY", they said they'd look into it and call back.

    One day later, they said we could get it. Turns out, we were the first, i repeat, FIRST in that whole area for DSL. They installed a DSLAM and got rid of 2 load coils on the lines. All that for a piddly 30$ a month for a 1 year contract.

    I'm usually against inflation praticies, but the cost has to come from somewhere if they're going to solve the last mile problem.

    Yes, I live 8 miles away from the local city, and there's a CO near there serving OC-3 to local companies.

    --
  6. This is crap by Sumbody · · Score: 4, Interesting


    I live in Chicago, prime SBC territory where SBC (nee Ameritech) is fighting for higher wholesale prices for all resellers of their connectivity and dialtone, claiming they (SBC) can't compete. My home is served by an ISP out of Seattle, who finds it profitable enough to offer me great prices on a twice-resold DSL (SBC ==> Covad ==> Speakeasy.net) and a 1-year contract almost up. These other ISPs are crybabies, or trying to enter SBC markets too late to compete. Fire their MBAs and hire some that have a better penchant for marketing and planning.

  7. SBC in Illinois... by BJZQ8 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    SBC/Ameritech in Illinois recently was granted a huge rate increase by the State. This is on rates charged to other phone companies for their lines. Strangely enough they DID shortly thereafter announce new DSL service to some relatively rural areas...but then again, we have not gotten any closer to real competition yet.

  8. Telecommunications Act of 1996 by b1t+r0t · · Score: 4, Interesting
    I worked as a contractor at SBC for a short time a couple of years ago, and at one point they had some sort of explanatory session about the Act, and what certain non-compete rules meant for sharing information between different divisions of SBC. The one thing that I found interesting about this was that their requirement to share DSL lines with CLECs was not due to TAo96. It was actually a condition of the Ameritech merger that allowed them to sell long distance service in that area.

    That having been said, from the viewpoint of a customer getting DSL from a 3rd party ISP back then, I wasn't too impressed with this, primarily because it caused the formation of ASI (which I think stands for "Advanced Systems Inc.") ASI was the ILEC holding company formed to handle the DSL circuits themselves, and its creation caused a severe increase in the delay of DSL installation, and these delays went on for at least a year.

    The second issue I was aware of back then was exactly what these ISPs are complaining about. At some point SBC decided that the resale price for a DSL line to ISPs would be (surprise!) exactly the same as what they charged individual customers for basic DSL (with ISP) service at the same speed.

    My ISP wasn't too happy about this, but they really died because they got "hosed" after they were bought out by a CLEC. Another ISP in the area, TexasNet, wasn't too happy about it either, but didn't get rid of DSL until SBC decided that it would remove one mode of billing, I think the one that let SBC pass the charges through to the ISP (the other being having the charges go onto the customer's phone bill).

    These days I get my DSL through SBC, fast and reliable but expensive (6Mbit), thanks to being near a Remote Terminal. I depend on them for nothing but a pipe, and have made a point of ignoring their stupid SBC/Yahoo nonsense. In fact, the only ISP service I can't and don't do myself is NNTP.

    --

    --
    "Open source is good." - Steve Jobs
    "Open source is evil." - Microsoft
  9. Antitrust will be the main avenue to competition by isdnip · · Score: 4, Insightful

    SBC and the other incumbent telephone companies grew up with protected monopolies. They grumbled when the FCC's Carterfone ruling in 1969 forced them to allow "foreign" attachments of customer-owned equipment like telephone sets, PBXs, answering machines and modems. (Before that, you could only rent equipment from them. A 300-baud modem was $25/month.) They grumbled when long distance competition was authorized.

    They would have grumbled when local telephone service competition was authorized in 1996, but they got, in return, permission to offer long distance service and "advanced" services such as Internet. So having gotten much in return, they're trying to weasel out of their half of the bargain. Powell's FCC has rolled back competition. They're making it next to impossible for CLECs to lease the high-frequency part of copper that's needed to offer consumer DSL service, and even cutting off some access to plain old full-price copper wire. So the CLECs like Covad won't be able to offer the ISPs a substitute for ILEC (SBC, VZ, etc.) DSL. Game! Powell also has a pending proposal that removes common carrier status from ILEC DSL, which is what this case is about -- SBC won't be required by federal regulation to offer raw DSL bit-pipe service to competitors of its Prodigy ISP service. Set! And even dial-up is coming under increased attack; many dial-up ISPs are becoming reclassified as toll calls, as the ILECs try to worm in a back-door "modem tax". It's happening -- I'm involved in some of these cases. Match!

    So the independent ISPs are being squeezed hard. Under the old pre-1996 regulations, the ILECs were not subject to much antitrust review, because regulation controlled them. Now, they're being unshackled, but they still have their inherited monopolies on essential facilities -- that's a term of art in the antitrust business. They're blatantly using these monopolies (the copper loop) to leverage sales of what should be fully-competitive businesses (ISPs like Prodigy and VZ Online). That is certainly a red flag in antitrust.

    Since the regulators (FCC) have stepped aside, relief will have to happen in the courts. A number of cases are pending now; this one looks to be particularly important. Its fate will help determine if the American public will have free access to the Internet, or whether we'll be stuck behind a corporate-administered Great Firewall of Bell, paying top dollar for limited choice.

    And with an Internet in monopoly hands, the FCC's excuse for broadcast ownership deregulation (extreme concentration of ownership of the media) is proven a lie. But Powell hopes we don't notice.

  10. Look, it's very simple by Rogerborg · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If you want genuine competition among suppliers of a service, you can't have one of the suppliers running the infrastructure that the service is supplied over. Public infrastructure should be owned by and run for the benefit of the public, not for the profit of one particular user of it.

    Welcome to the Illinois State Toll Highway Authority, Now A Wholly Owned Subsiduary of Ford Motor Co. Inc. $2 Surcharge Per Axle for Non Ford Vehicles.

    Would we tolerate that? Well, the Bell network is little different, it's just less blatant.

    --
    If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
  11. Re:Do you know what wholesale rates are? by wawannem · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Well, you shouldn't have mentioned that you are a former telcom employee. You lost a lot of credibility with that statement.

    First off, I want to clear up a few things about equipment costs that telcoms hide behind. They use this as their way to jack up the rates, because after salary and wage expenses, they really don't have much reason to charge a monthly fee to their customers, so they claim to be constantly upgrading their equipment. The telcoms are sneaky though, equipment works its way from the largest areas down to the rural areas so that they are re-using the same equipment where it is needed, and everyone gets an upgrade. Sounds good right!?
    WRONG

    The trick is how it goes from one CO to another. Each CO liquidates its old equipment to a holding company for pennies on the dollar. The holding company is usually a seperate entity whose main stakeholders are executives at the telco. The holding company then offers the equipment back to the next CO for its *original* price!!! Think of how much money is generated when just one upgrade works its way through the COs in an area. The telco has had to re-purchase the same equipment over and over again, so then they go to the local PUCO (public utilities commission) and ask if they can raise the price since the upgrade cost so much. When they get it approved it is a double win for them, they are getting more from their residual monthly fee, and they have made an ass-load of cash from their holding company entity.

    For Public Utilities, it is all about how to work funny-money through the system, they don't have to worry about pleasing the customer since their is no competition. If you really think that your local telco is out to please/help you, then I have a bridge in Brooklyn I'll sell ya ;).

  12. SBC in Nevada by Tiresias_Mons · · Score: 4, Informative

    SBC recently sponsored a bill in the Nevada Congress which made it legal for them to do this within the state. SB 400 (I think is the number) was sponsored by SBC and is an attempt to make it legal for SBC to charge whatever they want when dealing with 3rd party ISPs. I was in the car with a few colleagues Wednesday and one of them got a call from some of his clients who went through a 3rd party DSL service to say that their entire internet connection had been shut down because SBC cut the connection to the ISP.

    Its not only monopolistic pricing, they are now, at least in Nevada (and I think I heard that Indiana or Illinois had a similar measure passed) absolved from even offering the lines to 3rd parties. We're trying to start a grassroots counter-attack in the Reno area, but its going to be a long fight for certain.

    --
    "But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong" - Dennis Miller