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Software Archaeology
Plug1 writes "Salon (day pass needed) has an article about preserving software for historical purposes. It discusses source code archiving, and the effect the DMCA is having on attempts to catalog and analyze legacy code. It will be a shame if in the future a wealth of information is locked away because knoweldge of the underlying technology is lost."
That the DMCA DOES NOT APPLY outside the USA. However, hardware Digital Restriction Management DOES.
I really dont want strong crypto keeping out of stuff that I OWN, or My CONTENT.
I'td be a neat experiemnt to create a Linux driver that emulates TCPA chips so that stupid software thinks you're auth'ed.
This would explain the pyramids, if in the past IP laws of ancient cultures prevented sharing of ideas.
Who could ever forget the awesome software company Central Point Software? Their PC Tools and famous Copy2PC were high quality, and very useful products. Anyone that was anybody had Copy2PC, a program that could copy nearly ANY copy protected floppy disk. They even came out with a floppy controller that did the same thing.
If you're going to preserve software, doesn't it make sense to preserve the hardware to run it on as well? Emulation is less than perfect.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
I can hardly see DOS or the like being useful in the future, can you?
I have over 70 freaks, do you?
If the problem is that knoweldge of the underlying foundations of technology is being lost it is because of the concept of abstraction, of which .Net is the latest and greatest incarnation.
It really all started when some engineers decided that machine code was too hard and invented assembler. Nowadays it's not even necessary to know what a bit is or how an ALU works to make programs. Just point and click and you've got yourself a brand spanking new database app courtesy of VB.
No one ought to knock VB because it really is the best tool for what it does, but it also lowers the barrier to entry for would-be programmers. This can only lead to worse programs.
The most fundamental concept in computer science is logic, not algorithms (or worse programming languages). If a 'programmer' hasn't written a program in a low level language like C or assembler, the hiring manager should beware. Without hands-on experience with the fundamentals of computer science that person is lacking at the most basic level, regardless of whether he knows 1 language or 50 languages. He is handicapped.
It's a good thing to abstract, but it's also important to remember and study the bases of our science.
10 PRINT "HELLO WORLD"
20 GOTO 10
30 END
At which point you have created your first programming boo boo.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Lost Archive
Unless I am mistaken Salon, like most websites trying to make some money, is having financial problems.
... without their permission isn't that plagiarism?
They changed to a registration/fee based model, but allowed 1 day passes for whatever reason.
Nothing can hurt them more than being slashdotted by a bunch of people using a day pass.
someone has already copied the contents of the article into a comment which is good because it saves them bandwidth, but
This is why things like the DMCA and DRM come about - people thoughtlessly violating other people's copyrights/etc, and/or taking their services for granted.
I'm no better than anyone else, I do the same thing.
I guess my point is: either support the people who provide services you enjoy (music, video, news, web content, porn, whatever), or quit complaining when they finally start defending themselves.
no comment
10 print "Hello World"
20 beep
30 goto 10
Even years ago I was much more 1337 than yu0 !
It's the burning of the library of Alexandria all over again. This time, on the fires of corporate profit. Just remember, as we slide into another dark age, you're the ones that used Microsoft Office!
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
So, I should be saving the 200 lbs of DEC VMS manuals, Our old VAX, all the tapes, and keep our TU-85 tape drive under service contract? How much is this all worth. Do you have any idea how much it costs to keep that hardware running? If you want to keep the code, what is the point if you don't have hardware to run it on, unless you're going to develop some emulator. Don't get me wrong I think it's a horrible shame that all those hours of engineering to develop the hardware and software is finally being trashed. There are some amazingly great ideas that were used to make that stuff. But at what cost do you preserve it?
CD's degrade over time, their lifetime is estimated to be 100 years maximum. CD-R's can become unusable after a couple of days of being exposed to mountain sun, and will probably not last more than 15 years. In the meantime, the computer equipment will develop to a point where CD's are not needed any more, because there is better technology available. So it will become necessary to store the devices that were used to read them (i.e. whole computers). But these devices are partly made of stuff that decomposes over time, like rubber in bearings etc. Conserving data is not as easy as it seems. I wonder whether it'd be more efficient to print out the source codes on acid-free paper and store them like books - or perhaps microfiches - in a number of locations around the world.
where's all that Karma?
"The only problem, of course, is that they don't know it. All the images are recorded in an obsolete digital format, JPEG, and nobody knows how to unscramble the data."
I'm doing my part to make sure that the porn images of the Internet don't meet this similar fate. I have recorded my voice describing each of the images in my collection, and encoded it into the open-source OGG format. Much of the recording has consisted of little more than "Mmmmmmmmmmm, yeah baby", but I think that speaks volumes.
You know, it really isn't fair-use to repost an entire article from another website site.
...places like The Underdogs are so crucially important, at least on the gaming side of things. They're a truly indispensable repository of old games you can't find anywhere anymore, for Mac and PC alike.
SNACKS ARE AWESOME
A number of years ago Scientific American had a article lamenting the loss of intellectual assets with the inevitable degradation of old software, documentation, media, computers, and the like. Yet the same issue had another article on changes in the canned-goods industry (the rise of new canning technologies). While the first article bitterly mourned the loss of software-related knowledge and assets, the second article made no such mention of the corresponding loss of canning-related knowledge and assets.
Why is obsolete software technology worth preserving where obsolete manufacturing technologies are not? In a 100 years, will we really need access to the billions of JPEGs that were spewed out by digital cameras everywhere? I am not arguing for ignoring history (even though those that learn from history are also doomed to repeat it), but I am wondering about the double-standard. What realms of human knowledge and invention are worth saving, and which are not?
BTW, for the record, I still have old documents and applications from my Mac 128k and I might even have a paper tape copy of a old APL program that I wrote 25 years ago. But then I am a certified packrat.
Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.
This article reminds me of a joke one of my CS professors told us (I hope I remember it right):
The year was 2015. Joe, a programmer, was getting up in years and decided he wanted to have his body frozen after he died. He made the arrangements, and when the time came, he was frozen and placed in a government facility. Time passed, and he was forgotten.
Jump ahead a few centuries... suddenly Joe finds himself conscious again! He is on a lab table surrounded by strange looking people in uniforms. Their leader, speaking through a translator, welcomes Joe back to life.
Joe is amazed! There are so many questions he wants to ask, but first he says, "Why did you bring me back to life?"
The leader answers, "Well, the year is 9999. Y10k is coming up, and your file says you know Cobol."
If you have the source code for something then you have no cause to fear the DMCA, since you don't need to decrypt it. And if you don't have the source code, where is the value? Is there really any value in running lotus 123 for the Apple//? Perhaps if you have an Apple//, but so what? You cannot "fly over the code" from any height (as was mentioned in the article) because you don't have any code to fly over. You have an executable, and the "structure" there is quite different than looking at source code.
If you want source code for DOS, hit freedos.org and download it. It's not Microsoft's source, but so what? It does the very same job and, in many cases, it's superior to the original. Works that have value will be replicated and emulated; works thta have no value simply have no value - where is the need (or logic) in "preserving" them?
Take the Doomsday Project (in the UK) as an example. An Acorm Archimedies lazerdisc full of content relating to life in the 20th century. The problem came when they wanted to get the data off .. and couldn't easily find a compatible lazerdisc reader.
Of course, the format of the data is an issue. But if you can't get the data off the media, then the format of it isn't going to matter in the slightest.
Avantslash - View Slashdot cleanly on your mobile phone.
One of my favourite bits in 'All Tomorrow's Parties' (If memory serves - it's a while since I read Gibson) is where the computer shop keeper explains that 'real bright people' building computer systems like to buy stuff from our era. ;)
He goes on to explain that they use these 'ancient' systems to understand and gain insight into current systems, adding that nothing really changes, just gets added to (and that noone really understands the full system).
I believe Gibsons insight will be proven real, and that Software Archaeology is *essential* for the future DMCA or no DMCA.
The alternative is stagnation in the evolution of computer systems. This cannot happen, although it might in America
The part/parts of the World that don't succumb to DMCA fever will become the new tech leaders (and probably a great immigration target for us lot!)
At least with jay-walking, no matter how many times you do it, the road will still be there. But if you post the full text of Salon stories without either subscribing or getting the FREE day-pass, eventually we will no longer be able to pay fine writers like Sam Williams and Rachel Chalmers to write the stories that Slashdot readers like to read.
Editor, Salon Business & Technology
Salon.com
they have a section for software where they are getting old software from the likes of Macromedia and others for preservation. havent seen any source-code listed, but its still a good service for history
the history of the world
I responded to this above once already, but because this is dear to my heart, I'll do it again. Of course Salon isn't going to care if anyone prints out a copy and tapes it to their cube wall. But if a Web site grabs the text and posts it in a place like Slashdot, that deprives us of literally thousands of readers. Many of those readers might otherwise watch and ad and grab the daypass, which is good for our financial health, and some percentage of other readers might even subscribe, which is even better for us.
Technically, it's copyright infringement, but Salon isn't going to devote resources to suing Slashdot or Slashdot readers. If we were going to go that route, we'd start with the Freerepublic assholes, who actively want us to go bankrupt and do everything they can to help us down that road. To slashdot readers, the best appeal I can make is simple.
We want to make a living at what we do, so we can keep doing it. I want to keep paying great technology writers like Rachel Chalmers and Sam Williams to do interesting stories. If we convince enough readers to watch our ads or subscribe, we'll pull off this magic trick. So basically, the way I see it, any time a Slashdot reader posts the full text of a story on Slashdot, it's a vote against our survival, which is ironic, since you wouldn't be posting the stories if you didn't think there was some merit in them, right?
Editor, Salon Business & Technology
Salon.com
What about CD-R's exposed to mountain dew?
You watch an ad to get a day pass. Advertisers pay to sponsor the daypass. The more people use the daypass, the more valuable that sponsorship, and the more we can charge for it.
Editor, Salon Business & Technology
Salon.com
"It might seem silly now but put yourself 1,000 years in the future," says Booch, chief scientist at IBM's Rational Software subsidiary. "It's not too hard to imagine."
This assumes that (a) humans will still be drinking coffee 1,000 years from now, (b) we will still have college professors and (c) they will still have need of drink coasters.
I believe that 1,000 years from now we will consume our caffeine in pill form only, be schooled by robots and will obtain our liquids from intravenous bags.
This is a good argument for mandatory source code deposit. To get a copyright on code, you should have to deposit a copy of the source with the Library of Congress. The Library of Congress has the authority to require this, but currently they only require a printout of the first ten and last ten pages, because they didn't want to store all the paper. That should change.
After all, in five years Salon.com may be gone from the web, and since neither Google nor the Internet Archive have a paid subscription, this story will be forever lost to the ages.
So kudos for reposting this valuable information to Slashdot! Without the efforts of others like you, internet surfers in generations to come might never understand the importance of, well, the efforts of others like you.
The difficulty of future generations being able to deipher our data without a guide is high but not impossible. The best example is hieroglyphics. Until the discovery of the Rosetta stone, Egyptian hieroglyphics were impossible to read. After, it was so much easier. On the other hand, there is no Rosetta stone for Mayan glyphs. Although it has taken longer to decipher, slowly the Mayan symbols are being translated. It took 100 years longer, but it is being done.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
Hi, Mr. Leonard, and let me first thank you all at Salon for making a great general-interest site for geeks and non-geeks alike.
The Day Pass is a great idea, but some day or other I notice it plain doesn't work. Today, I tried to go to the article mentioned here, only to be redirected again and again to the same partial-content page. The Sprint ad never appears. Under Win 2000. Bot from IE and from Mozilla 1.4. I'd guess a technical problem on your (Ultramercial's?) side.
In this circumstances, I'd consider the posting of the entire article forgivable (although the poster didn't state Day Pass problems as the reason, which puts his/her motives in question). Otherwise, I agree it's a rather uncivilized behavior.
For hundreds of years, after the science of creating corrective eye lenses was invented in Venice, Italy, the process of grinding and shaping the lenses was kept a very profitable secret. People who could not afford to pay for this very expensive Intellectual Property generally just went without. Sure. You could get magnifying lenses, but not lenses that corrected for nearsightedness.
Those of you of moderate to low income (I'm talking. . . making less than 7 figures per year, to put it in perspective with pre-reniassance nobility), who require corrective eye lenses, imagine yourself unable to beg, borrow, or steal a pair of glasses for yourself. Even crude ones.
Eventually, the secret got out, and now we have a global multi-billion dollar industry.
In other words, the very concept of IP is just plain evil.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
I am informed that earlier today the daypass option was broken. My apologies.
Editor, Salon Business & Technology
Salon.com
I have some old AutoCAD 3 files from high school, a hopelessly optimistic design for an automatic vacuum cleaner, if I recall.
My dad still has a program he wrote on punch cards someplace.
That's the trouble, isn't it? Even if the data survives, the hardware to read it might not.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
Although the issues involved in this case are slightly different, The term 'Software Archaeology' (or at least 'Programmer Archeologist') might come from Vernor Vinge's book 'A Deepness in the Sky'.
In that book, code-as-data is taken to an extreme, and the best programmers have the title "Programmer Archaeologist", since they spend little time writing new code; instead they look through old code to find something written for a similar situation. It isn't that old programmers are better-- it's that the software contains facts and information that are of value.
Whereas on Star Trek someone might look through an ancient captain's log to learn about a bizarre planet/new race/weird disease/strange technology, in Vinge's book that sort of specialized information is stored in the source code for software that was written at the time to deal with the situation.
Brian Bergeron gives a fairly decent treatment of the whole data loss issue in his book Dark Ages II: When the Digital Data Die . Although,
this could be a lot of hysteria over nothing. As I recall in
Asimov's Foundation's
Edge, Trevize comes across some ancient computers, and they
just fire up and start working beautifully right away after
centuries of disuse. Heheh, if only this were the case. The hard
drive on the HP I got last Christmas already crapped out.