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The Economics Of Spamming
Shardleton writes "What kind of an idiot would buy penis-enlargement pills? Even more idiotic, who would buy them from a spammer? Apparently LOTS of people, according to this article at Wired. The operators of a spamvertised order site left their customer logs exposed. There were 6,000 orders for the pills since July 4. Sayeth Wired: "Do the math and you begin to understand why spammers are willing to put up with the wrath of spam recipients, Internet service providers and federal regulators.""
Offering e-mail recipients "free pornography" if they download a software program. The program often provides the pornography, but only after the user's computer dials a 1-900 number to an overseas location, racking up hundreds of dollars in phone charges.
"Pump and dump" stock schemes, in which a spammer sends e-mails touting a certain stock and encourages people to buy it. The stock's value goes up, and spammers sell it at a profit.
Accepting payment for an item without sending it. Spammers bet that someone buying Viagra or pills for the enlargement of body parts would be too embarrassed to call the police or Better Business Bureau.
Of course, if there was ever need for proof that there's a sucker born every minute, just check out this quote from the Wired article:
John.
There's now going to be about 6,000 very embarrassed men if these logs remain accessible.
Ceci n'est pas une sig.
... I had always wondered if anyone would actually buy from a spammer.
Any chance the spammer did a media honeypot? Released fake records to make marketers *think* he was successful?
Stressed? Me? Of course not. Stress is what a rubber band feels before it breaks, silly.
Ok, reading the article and following a couple links - here's the penis pill spammer!
Braden Bournival
561 Montgomery. St, Manchester, NH 03102
Tel. #: (603) 669-7422
Email: frappe_boy@yahoo.com
Do whatever you want with this info but don't blame ME!!!
My Stack Overflow user
What kind of an idiot would buy penis-enlargement pills? :(
Meeeeeeeeeee
I have over 70 freaks, do you?
Despite my vehement loathing of spam, a recent incident is making me question how we go about dealing with it. Recently, Something Awful has been having issues with the SPEWS list, a popular spam blacklister, who according to Something Awful blacklisted a whole chunk of IP addresses that happened to include their own unabused server without offering recourse or explanation simply because it had the misfortune of sharing address space unknowingly and unwillingly. I'd call that overkill, and more offensive than the perceived problem of spam itself if truth be told. Bayesian filters work, so why do we need to continue inadvertently censoring netizens who have nothing to do with spamming?
I tell you, folks, after reading this article and hearing about what anti-spam proponents have come up with for solutions, I'm starting to have second thoughts about the whole deal. For me it comes down to to the freedom of speech issue -- I've always been told that if you can't handle free speech you don't agree with you obviously can't handle free speech -- and I suppose just because something irritates me doesn't mean that the greater good would be served by silencing that something.
Another perspective is that the amount of money being pumped back into the economy by so-called unsolicited commercial e-mail is nothing to scoff at, and perhaps legislating it in some tolerable form such as limiting a company to one commercial message per person per day would create a new legitimate business method in this country. It's something to think about, certainly. I'd hate to think we're going to lose another revenue stream to outsourcing before we've even had a chance to give it a go locally, and this may be a way for us to recapture some of those IT jobs that have been lost and generate a whole new crop of successful entrepeneurships.
Try not. Do or do not, there is no try.
-- Dr. Spock, stardate 2822-3.
Suddenly, telemarketing doesn't seem so bad. At least my household never got phone calls from perverts offering pics of underaged teens, unlicensed pharmacy ads, etc. And to top it off, telemarketing is a manpower intensive operation whereas one guy can send out a billion e-mail letters on his own. At least telemarketing provides jobs.
The penis enlargement lotions work much better. Send me your email and I will tell you how to take advantage of this great offer!
Worst. Sig. Ever.
More and more I've been getting spam that advertises various unscrupulous things, usually the offer of pornographic pictures, but offers no links and has a bad return email address. There is literally no way to contact the the sender without email header hackery.
What is the point? They can't gain anything from this and leaves me completely baffled..
Other customers included the head of a credit-repair firm, a chiropractor, a veterinarian, a landscaper and several people from the military. Numerous women also were evidently among Amazing Internet's customers
Talk about salesmanship!
New year Resolution: Don't change sig this year
Tim Campbell
1235 George Ave.
Windsor, Ontario
Canada
N8Y 2X6
TEL#:(519) 948-9208
This goes against an older article on Wired that said that spammers aren't interested in actually selling anything at all other than e-mail addresses to each other.
Support the First Amendment. Read at -1
Tiny dicks AND no brains? Hopefully a side effect of these pills is sterilization...
Garg
Garg
Alumnus, Xavier's School for Gifted Youngsters
Where can I get the E-mail addresses of those 6,000 people who ordered the pills? I'm a classmate of a roomate who's sister's boyfriend's father's 3rd cousin is a banker in Nigeria who's looking for someone to help him get 300 million dollars out of Nigeria for a cut.
1f u c4n r34d th1s u r34lly n33d t0 g37 l41d
If you read about most spammers (i.e. Ralsky, Hardigree, etc.) the one thing that sticks out about all of them is that they're generally not very intelligent. Their choice is to spam and live in the million dollar house, or go back to McDonald's and the trailer park. Obviously, they're not going back to the trailer park without a fight.
It's obvious that they're making money; how else is Ralsky going to afford his house?
Do you have ESP?
Okay, sooo... 6000 orders in a 4 week period?
52 weeks in a standard year (big surprise there for some of you!) so 52 / 4 = 13, thus 13 * 6000 = 78000 sales in one year. For a rough estimate of world population right now I'll take 6.100.000.000 people, but that includes by average 52% women. Thus ( 6.100.000.000 / 100 ) * 48 = 2.928.000.000 and 2.928.000.000 / 78000 ~= 37538 years before every male on this planet has a huge penis and the spam will FINALLY stop!
I suggest lynching spammers, much faster.
Hate me!
Look how many GNC stores there are these days. They sell nothing but sugar pills and snake oil.
What makes you think that? GNC sells several useful health products that have very real effects. I buy my multivitamins there, as well as protein powder. Unless the legally-required nutrition label on the side is lying to me, each serving contains 30 grams of protein, just like the container advertises. How is that "sugar pills" or "snake oil?" I buy the powder to get the protein, the container claims to contain protein, the powder actually is protein. I get exactly what I pay for and expect.
I call bullsh*t on you.
But they make billions selling Stacker 2 to fatties too lazy to excersize and too weak willed to stem their eating.
I've heard this comment all the time, too, and I used to think it was true. But as time went on, and I heard the comment more and more, and I met more people taking supplements, creatine, and protein bars/mixes/shakes, I noticed something: they did work out. They weren't just taking the pills and sitting on their asses. Come to think of it, I've never met anyone taking those supplements who wasn't also on some kind of exercise program.
So I call bullsh*t on you again.
Twice in one post. Nice work.
Like woodworking? Build your own picture frames.
You HAVE to be kidding.
You could sell a canned vacuum this way. Enough people will bite at a product if it is marketed correctly.
Look at the "pet rocks" that sold in the 70's.
- Zav - Imagine a Beowulf cluster of insensitive clods...
The president of a California firm that sells airplane parts and is active in the local Rotary Club gave out his American Express card number...
you really believe these people purchased this shit? these people's credit cards were stolen! ever get emails that resemble ebay's account page or aol's billing or some other fake bullshit thats trying to snatch your credit card numbers.. those things fool a lot more people than "make your penis huge" sells penis pills
what do you think gets done with all those stolen cc's.. the bastard turns around and signs them up for penis pills, porno sitesm, etc whatever gets the comission. sending out a buttload of spam to the same people that your stealing ccs from just obfuscates things to help cover your tracks. this is the real shady shit thats going on with spam.. not penis mail that people are actually buying, people are getting ripped off!
bite my glorious golden ass.
I alone am responsible for all 6000 orders. Soon, very soon, my penis will be the size of North America, and the world will quake in fear.
Roving Web-Teleoperated Robot
"an idiot with a small penis "
:)
Aren't you glad Slashdot lets you post anonymously?
"Derp de derp."
At least telemarketing provides jobs.
So does pimping, but that doesn't mean I'm going to recognize it as an overall benefit to society.
Wanna grow your schlong? Do what I do: View pornography! Millions of satisfied customers report a dramatic increase in length, girth and firmness in just minutes, using this ancient time-tested technique.
Disclaimer: Results may not last more than 5-10 minutes.
"In a 32-bit world, you're a 2-bit user. You've got your own newsgroup, alt.total.loser." -Weird Al
...is why I get so much spam which is gibberish. I'm not talking about Portugese (about 1/2 my spam originates from Brazil), I mean actual nonsense, often without links, images, or attachments.
What does someone hope to gain from this? Is it some secret code that will give me a giant viagra-enhanced penis and hot schoolgirls to go with it if I can figure it out? At least for normal spam I can see the motivation.
example: I got mail today with the title "rmw oejectivity" and the body "cwdb". Why?!
-puk
I'd always hoped that people stupid enough to order spam-advertised items would be too stupid to operate a computer, nevermind use email software.
Apparently, there is a small but significant range in which you're smart enough to use a computer, but too dumb to know what to do with it.
There are a number of scripts (going by such names as "Formfucker") foating around to generate random (and totally bogus) orders by filling in spammers' forms.
Can't help but wonder if this is the case here.
Once I have this information, I would like to give it to Spamhaus or some other organization, preferably one with an advertising budget, and have them do a spot on tv explaining the dangers of spam.
Maybe the government should do a public service announcement about it. You see, the majority of people who buy this crap are not internet savvy, but you better believe they are television savvy.
I think the FTC would be much better off spending its money to educate potential victims of spam than it would going after the actual spammers.
Buy Steampunk Clothing Online!
In principle, I agree with you. But, on the one hand, you argue that
if I don't like what someone's saying on TV, I can change the channel
implying that speech on television is "free speech" (since you have a way to avoid it). However, when refering to email, you write
don't tell me I can simply hit the delete button - thats not something I should have to do.
Does this imply that you shouldn't have to pick up the remote control and change the channel -- that the television should just read your mind? After all, in both cases (watching television and reading email) you are choosing to do so, and you are choosing to focus on a single instance (channel or particular email). If you don't like that particular instance, you either (a) change instances by using the remote control or the next/delete button, or (b) change mediums by turning the television or the email application off.
What's the difference again? Like I said, I agree with you in principle, but your logical argument here on what constitutes "free speech" is weak.
Support a few technologists in Washington.
Come to think of it, what a nifty idea. To bad I don't have access to a server I could perform such a feat from. ;-)
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
I assume that he's a spammer not because his dad was Jewish, but because he lost all credibility as a neo-Nazi when his fellow travelers found him out. Once that happened, he needed a job in which integrity, humanity, and credibility are not required attributes. Hence...he became a spammer. The comment is more of an insult to neo-Nazis than Jewish people...how can anyone claim that the neo-Nazis are the cream of the gene pool (as they claim) if all that unemployed neo-Nazis can do is disperse spam? The comment should be taken not as an insult to Jews but as an insult to single-celled life everywhere.
You can't make this stuff up.
mitch
"Look at the "pet rocks" that sold in the 70's."
I'd have to say you missed the point of the Pet Rock. The product was actually the (moderately) funny book that came with the rock.
Yours came with a book?
Crap.
Please donate your spare CPU cycles to help fight cancer and other diseases
I used to work for a small software company where most of our sales were made through direct mail. I think our gross sales peaked at about $2 million one year while I was working there in the mid-90's.
Each direct mail piece sent to a prospect costs hard cash to send, for printing, postage, labor and mailing list rental. Yet it was our experience that a response rate of 0.5% was sufficient to yield a profit.
Once you have identified a profitable offer and a mailing list that's rich with customers who respond to direct mail, you have a license to print money. That's why you probably each of you reading this receive two or three pieces of direct mail every day.
The following two comments I posted at Kuro5hin discuss this in great detail:
- The Importance of Advertising to Business
- Direct mail is very scientifically targeted
Now, if you consider that the cost of sending spam is insignificant when the spammer can hijack an open relay, you will understand that spam will never stop until purchasers stop responding to spam.Simply installing filters on your own machine won't help. The people who purchase sexual enhancement products over the Internet don't know from spam filters.
I think the end to spam will come only when every ISP and mail hosting service installs filters that are enabled by default. Only then will the response rate of spam be reduced to the point that it's no longer economical to send it.
I think it's likely the day will come when ISPs will be forced to install filters that cannot be disabled. Possibly this will be ordered by various national governments.
Request your free CD of my piano music.
A friend and I actually DID go through with a make money fast scheme. Back in '92 when the Internet was really starting to get buzz, we put an add in Popular Science promsing "Valuable information on the Internet just $10" or something similarly hyped. What they got was some photocopied BS we downloaded ourselves; we even reduced it and double-side copied it to keep our costs down.
We figured it was totally legit since, if you read our ad carefully, we did provide exactly what we promised.
I think we got about 10 requests, which we fulfilled, and we ended up basically breaking even or even losing money.
Variation: subscription service for intelligence improvement pills. Charge $9.95 for a month's supply. When you get smart enough to stop sending me $9.95 a month for sugar pills I have proof that they obviously worked.
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither safety nor liberty.
Ben
Did the writeup on this story remind anyone else of the expensive, ongoing, and utterly ineffective war on drugs?
...
The war on drugs in the US deals with the problem almost entirely as a 'supply' issue. Decades of failure should convince anyone that you can't solve what is essentially a 'demand' issue by stifling 'supply'. It seems that spam is no different
The question is, do you go with a 'just-say-no' campaign to educate email consumers about spam, or do you accept spam as a (legitimate) fact of life, and work on (government and self) regulations to make it manageable?
Imposing Libertarian views on everyone online since 1992.
I always thought that people gullible/uneducated enough to fall for spam would also be too uneducated to run a computer well enough to handle the email in the first place.
Guess we've done too good a job of making them easy to use...
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
Hehe. I always thought, that crap does not work. Their ripping the customer off. But then I saw the diabolicalness of the whole thing.
"Make your penis HUGE"
The penis reducing pills start at $1000...
Apparently, there is a small but significant range in which you're smart enough to use a computer, but too dumb to know what to do with it.
It used to be called AOL, but I think the segment is expanding...
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
Freedom of speech is not absolute, and the "yelling 'fire' in a crowded theater" example is only one of the most simplistic restrictions.
Let's take a quick look at prohibitions of Freedom of Speech that have been upheld by the courts.
Noise Ordinances: Yes, the Nazis must be allowed to march through Skokie, but not down a residential street at 2 a.m. on a school night. Courts have consistently upheld that protected speech can be limited to specific places at specific times so as not to constitute an undue burden of noise or disruption on the public.
Property Rights: Your right to be heard does not include a right to come on my property, against my wishes, to speak to me. A good example is when ACT UP! invaded a church during services and started shouting "you're killing us" as part of a protest against the Catholic Church's policies. Had they kept it on the sidewalk in front of the church, it would have remained a legal, protected protest. When they entered the church, they became criminals and were arrested for trespass.
Unsolicited Advertising: Opt-out is very supported by the courts. After one telephone call or junk postal mail, if I provide you with proper notification, you may not make another unsolicited call or send me another unsolicited advertisement by post. If you do, I may sue you. The law gets even more restrictive regarding unsolicited advertising by fax, requiring opt-in.
Violence: Incitement to riot is not protected. Advocating the violent overthrow of the government is not protected. Using speech intended to goad someone into a physical altercation is not protected. To take the shouting "fire" in a movie theater example a step further... shouting "what are ya, some kinda faggot" in a crowded redneck bar is not protected speech.
Fraud: Speech intended to defraud me out of services, property, or money is not protected.
Slander & Libel: Slanderous or libelous speech is not protected.
Protection of Children: It is illegal to sell pornography to children. Though it is protected speech, its distribution can be restricted to a certain age group.
Commercial Speech: You can be forced to warn people your product is dangerous, tell people how much fat or sodium it contains, etc. Commercial speech is MUCH more restricted and burdened with rules and regulations than political, religious, or artistic speech.
Broadcast Censorship: Ever seen hardcore porn during prime time on the networks? Of course not. The Supreme Court ruled that since radio/television waves enter your home unbidden, they can be regulated much more restrictively than print media.
CONCLUSION
This isn't a comprehensive list of the legal restrictions on free speech. It's just some of the major ones. There are little ones (remember that DeCSS was found not to be protected speech), and even coersions (*legally* withholding funds or licenses from groups that exercise their first amendment rights in a manner the government does not like).
So don't argue that spam is an exercise of free speech. Spam is commercial, it violates the property rights of its recipients, and is subject at bare minimum to the same restrictions set on phone and postal solicitations.
Of course my favorite quote on free speech is from Hubert Humphrey: "The right to be heard does not include the right to be taken seriously." - Greg
Start a happiness pandemic
I had once stumbled upon an interview with the guy in charge of Demetrius Software, a russian spamming company. He genuinely believed he was doing the right thing, and, indeed, helping his clients achieve their business goals.
He illustrated the effectiveness of spamming thusly. My services cost $500 (can't remember the actual figure, but it was something to that effect), he said, for sending messages out to a list of 4 million addresses. However, I had more than once been approached by people starting small businesses and not having even $100 in their budget for advertising, asking to, like, send their spam to 400,000 people for $70. I never refused, he said, and guess what - all of them were repeat customers coming back in a short while and ordering full-scale mailings for the full price.
This would only mean, he reasoned, that spamming boosted their business well enough.
"What kind of an idiot would buy penis-enlargement pills?"
I say, what kind of idiot would swallow a Spammers penis-enlargement pills?
While I appeciate the humor in this article (especially the Penis Man outfit) I have to wonder, did the author actually buy the pills, and take them?
I mean we all have guesses at the ethics some of these spammers possess. It wouldn't suprise any of us for a spammer to just take the money and run. Is it that far a stretch to imagine some psychopath spammer sending out poison as penis enlargment pills? (Also, I think some of the traditional aphrodisiacs are in fact mild poisons.) (I'm getting distracted.)
It's gotten so bad that I sometimes think about sending out spam myself, but as a parody, something to the effect of "Fuck you! Give me Money!" and an explanation that this is what spammers are really saying. I would never actually do this because as Faith said when she took over Buffy's body "It would be Wrong."
I was thinking of these things while reading the comments and got another idea. What if there was spam sent out warning people that spammers selling penis enlargment pills are actually selling poison. Or better than poison, but a poison that renders you completely impotent for life? (For the irony.)
And then I thought that it wouldn't even be neccessary to send it via spam. You could just write up an urband legend "Forward this to Everyone you know! Won't Someone please think of the Children!" type of email a la Good Times warning people of the danger of Spammers Penis Enlargment Pills. Just put a fake quote in there about the FDA or other government organization (OHS?) and the clueless idiots would do the rest.
The Urband Legends websites could write an explanation that it was a hoax meant to point out the fact that you shouldn't believe everything you read on the internet and you should never trust a spammer and anyone who buys from a spammer should have the shit beat out of them (or at least people think about it, even normally non-violent people).
Hopefully it wouldn't quote me because then people would be out to beat the shit out of me. That's the problem with these hoaxes, once they get started they get completely out of control.
So in conclusion, this post is just something that is nice to think about. You should not actually do it because it would be wrong. Not to mention that I don't want to get the shit beat out of me repeatedly for starting yet another forward this to everyone you know email hoax.
This signature used to contain a cute kitty virus with ansii art. Please set the slashdot editors on fire. Thank you
Well in my day we had pencils, paper, slide rules and APL. Shame that IBM effectively killed it by taking it propriatary.
.
Ah, the good old days of waking up, eating a cold lump of poison, going to work in mine. .
Ummmmmm, nevermind.
Feynman was always highly visually oriented. It seems almost natural that he would have developed both useful and unique methods of notation. I'm not sure the current state of academia is suitable for the development of his like. In fact I'm not sure the state of academia at the time was suitable for the development of his like and he really got a bit lucky with the Manhatten project. Luck that benefited us all.
KFG