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One Worldwide Power Grid
randomned writes "A little ironic that this article on a world wide power grid was published in the September issue of Wired. With the recent outage on in the northeast, think of what could've happened if the entire world was on one grid." As someone who spent 23 and a half hours without power, I'm thinking this is a brilliant plan!
Wow, this must've been a real ordeal. It's not like some people in Quebec missed electricity for a month during winter 5 years ago. I mean, not having power for a whole summer day must be so bad...
Here's another link to info on Tesla's wirless power transmission technology, and a gooogle search.
Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is the War Room!
Disclaimer: I work in the power trading business.
;-( - into partially stored hydro... could be interesting.
This article has a few oddities. The idea that everyone will be connected to "one" grid is misleading. There will always be multiple grids, and interconnectors between them. This can be thought of similarly to ISPs peering arrangements.
The article is really saying that it may be economically feasible to have extremely long interconnectors, eg across Siberia, the Atlantic, the Pacific, or up the length of Africa.
I have some reservations with this. When power is transmitted, there is a loss through the resistance of the transmission lines. This clearly becomes more acute the longer the transmission. In most grids in europe, the costs of these losses ( and the requirement to cover them with reserve power) is built into the fees to become a trading company within those countries. There are exceptions -eg the UK -> France interconnector - there is ~ 1.5% loss which the trading party must bear. This is for a 26 mile link. So 3000 miles might be a bit hopeful... I can't be arsed to do the math, but...
It is very hard to see how exploiting the varying liquidity of these markets would offset the huge transmission losses. Especially when compared to the ability to ship huge amounts of oil and gas in pipelines and tankers, with little loss, even at the expense of flexibility.
If this is about some new technology for power transmission ( eg superconductors) this could be great.
Australia could do pretty damn well by covering WA with solar. This could be transmitted to China, converting the Three Gorges Dam - an ecological crime, but its there, I've seen it
I don't think having a single "grid" covering a larger area is itself a problem. The problem arises when you don't have an appropriate set of safeguards in place to protect that grid from itself and an effective SCADA (Supervisory Control and Data Acquisition) network in place to monitor it all.
The technology is there to do it safely and reliably. It just costs money. Right now the major utilities have no profit motive to deploy technologies to harden and protect the power distribution and transmission systems.
In most states you can now sell power back to the utilities. A local generation plant (solar, hydro, wind, etc) can be connected to the power system via a utility intertie rated device.
This can as simple as a utility intertie rated inverter as part of you home solar system. Unfortunately for everyone else on your block, as soon as commercial input fails your system will stop providing power out to the utility side. This is to protect power company personnel during line repairs.
Here's some articles from around the web about the power outage (all collected by one site, CommonDreams.org). Personally, I would rather live off the grid totally. It's inevitably going to be so much cheaper, which is the main incentive for me.
An Industry Trapped by a Theory by Robert Kuttner
The Latest Bogus Fossil-Nuke Blackout: This Grid Should Not Exist by Harvey Wasserman
Power Outage Traced to Dim Bulb in White House by Greg Palast
A Tale of Two Power Outages by John Turri
Secondary, method of use large-surface area generative methods electrical power generation, wind turbine or photo-voltaic cell, impractical for large scale generation and distribution. By means of setting necessary storage and exchange systems possibly valid with extensive reconstruction of even currently correctly designed redundant distribution systems may have validity, though still surface area required and power used in manufacturing for little return per-unit is detriment. Area required for photo-voltaic cells and limited local return from construction in non optimum locations makes rather impractical project, applies to wind turbine also. As to comment, no pollution, it is rather limited in scope or inaccurate, manufacturing waste for production large numbers of photo-voltaic cells is significant.
As to other, water turbine effective where possible, nuclear fission reactor-breeder reactor inclusive of plutonium cycle, steam turbine in use geothermal heat to water; first and third useful only in limited locations where geography allows for significant returns of electrical generation, second has by means of breeder reactor least effect detrimental on environment given control and limitation waste heat; all significantly more practical than described methods of provision alternate power, though again lack of power is not cause error in distribution, distribution system errors in design responsible.
As to concern over "west", rather odd and excessively generalizing terms are those not mentioning specific and defined geographical areas, is the bases valid? Failure of distribution systems effects all, though industrial facilities often have secondary distribution methods or do pay more to company and so have right to greater priority in restoration of power than residences. Consider also, hospital is considered in majority zoning as commercial type, goal is higher priority to simple residences above this and associated facilities? Expense of comparison construction 10 natural gas based generative facilities with output 65-90 MW each by power than waste generated in manufacturing for equal number wind turbines for generation equal amounts power and for wind turbine placement in optimum environments, assuming even constant maximum theoretical output of wind turbines after placement given rarity of environment with optimum conditions.
Conspiracy is illusion of public ignorant of economic principles, total cost of manufacturing and operation, in matters which are not clearly understood by the public. Seek information on matters, do not assume based on conspiracy of ignorant public. Do not accept conspiracy for illusion of forwarding effort of environmentalists; often forwarded ideas result in more detriment to environmentalist goals than current available efficient methods.
In the UK. The electricity all comes from the same place of course and comes in through the same set of wires, but the electricity companies don't have a monopoly on the customers in their region.
e ss_for_c hange/choose_green_energy/
It means that I can do stuff like buy "green" electricity. I use the electricity, pay my green supplier and how they handle the generation, top up supply to the grid and inter company billing is completely up to them.
e.g.
http://www.foe.co.uk/campaigns/climate/pr
It'll be an interesting experiment.
Deleted
Solar and wind power less reliable than fossil and nuclear power? You must be kidding. If you're talking about the new solar energy power plants, well, they're just plain silly anyway. However:
Park a few solar panels on your rooftop, put a stack of deep-cycle batteries in a closet, and disconnect yourself from "the grid". Don't run major appliances after dark, and your batteries will last longer. Install 12V DC lighting around the house, use 12V appliances and accessories (e.g. designed for cars/boats/RVs) where possible, and run them straight off the batteries. Get large appliances (refridgerators, freezers, washing machines) that were designed to run efficiently, and use even less of it. A large part of the problem in converting an existing house to solar energy is is the task of replacing the house's infrastructure to one suitable for solar power.
Another part of the problem in converting the average modern house is that, although stick frame houses are cheap and inexpensive to construct, they cost a lot to keep cool in the summer, and heat in the winter. Think of them as one big heat sink. By orienting houses with large windows to the south, and roof overhangs designed to allow low winter sun in, and keep high summer sun out, (or with a few large deciduous trees to your south for the same effect), you save a big fat bundle of energy in climate control. Add a fair amount of thermal mass to your outside walls (cob, adobe, straw-bale, rammed earth, earthship), put some of your living space underground, and you might even survive year round with no climate control.
Don't want to go whole hog? Get a grid intertie system, park the solar panels on your roof, and connect them through the intertie straight to the local power grid. It won't power your house after dark, or through a local (or widespread) outage, but you'll be helping offset the electricity demand period during the day, when electricity usage is highest. Better yet, if you make more electricity than you use (and your state requires the participation of the electric company), you can get paid by the electric company for the surplus you generate. The power company pays me $15 a month for the ability to cycle my water heater and air conditioner off for up to 15 minutes an hour (25% load reduction) in the summer, I don't see why they don't offer me $30-$50 a month for the privilige of parking an extra 3-5kW power plant on my roof.
The whole point of solar/wind/geothermal/renewable power, IMHO, is that you wouldn't need a "larger, more expensive, grid". With sufficient distribution of solar panels, backup batteries, and (worst-case) backup generators, you wouldn't need a grid at all. Each neighborhood could be fairly self sufficient, houses with good solar siting would provide the panels, those without could provide backup batteries, or house generators for emergency power. With houses built for energy efficiency from the start, you'd need a lot less power (find the exact statistics yourself) to get through your day. All of which would mean less mass power generation, which means fewer fossil and nuclear plants, which means greater energy independence, all of which is good for the future.
How's my programming? Call 1-800-DEV-NULL
That is true only of the most inefficient of solar cells like those used in solar calculators. For high efficiency cells that are produced today for power generation the energy payback for their building materials ranges from a few months to a year and a half. Considering a well maintained solar stack can last 25+ years you obviously are getting back many times more energy than you put in.
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
Utilities are no longer required to buy power from producers, since an act of congress in 1990s...
This is my sig.
http://www.cirris.com/testing/resistance/wire.html
, .
.
.
.0025 Ohms per foot .
.0025 Ohms = .
.
.
.
If you consider one loop at just 5,000 miles,
and 3 strands one for each phase of AC
then you are looking at 79.2 million ft. Transmission
line
As the size of the wire goes up so does the resistance,
and as the heat of the line goes up so does the resistance
Summer heat can cause "sag" which actually makes the
wires longer for the equation as well
The only figure I have found is about
So at optimal conditions we have 72.2 million ft. x
198K ohms and that is if you figure in Zero resistance
in interconnection
198,000 Ohms * 1,000's of Ampere of current, you get the idea
All so we can build centralized power plants, and have
lower staffing levels
Local power is honestly a better way to go, and I think
deregualtion leads to corporate corruption
Ask Enron !
Peace,
Ex-MislTech
google "32 trillion offshore needs IRS attention"
That link I offered is not a very good one, here is :
.
.
a better one , with better numbers
http://www.ramgen.com/about_doe.html
9 - 15% loss is the overall factor they think
At 12 trillion watts of usage, that is a GREAT deal of power
Thanks,
Ex-MislTech
google "32 trillion offshore needs IRS attention"
sigh
Ok, all of this is answered quite comprehensively in 20 Hydrogen Myths a paper by the Rocky Mountain Institute.
The short answer to your questions is this: you make hydrogen from methane. Why do you bother? Because in an electric car, hydrogen-from-methane is still twice as efficient as any other fuel source: i.e in dollars per vehicle mile, it costs half of gasoline. Why? Because electric motors are just much, much better than internal combustion engines, and probably always will be.
Good enough? But there's more!
Electrolysis *IS* good enough: you can still take 3c / KWh grid electicity, make hydrogen, and run a fuel cell car cheaper than a gasoline vehicle.
Not much cheaper, but it's a start.
And here's the kicker: renewables can power hydrogen cars, so as well as cheaper driving now, you get to build the infrastructure of a renewable economy while you're at it.
Now, do I believe even 50% of the hydrogen hype? No, but it's a viable alternative for some situations now, and people are going to explore those first: hydrogen fuel cell car and bus fleets will be here in a few years.
If those work, then let's talk about a hydrogen economy.
Hexayurt - open source refugee shelter,
Hydrogen Sulfide is largely burned off at this point, .
.
.
and is considered VERY explosive, and the famous movies
about poison gas wells are talking about this gas
Oil refineries actually end up making more of this
stuff in their processes, this would turn it into a
revenue stream like they did with Carbon Fiber
Carbon Fiber, Stronger than steel, lighter than Titanium
Excerpt:
http://www.cas-bikes.com/page9.html
The carbon fiber and the epoxy matrix has the best strength to weight ratio of any material in the world.
Peace,
Ex-MislTech
google "32 trillion offshore needs IRS attention"
Here in Florida, we're on the same grid as the North-east and likely the rest of the south and midwest. It's one big grid from Canada down to Key West. The dominoe effect occurs due to how power is routed on the grid. Here in Florida, we're pretty self sufficient and usually sell power to the rest of the eastern US in winter, now that Crystal River Nuclear plant is back online.
I drank what? -- Socrates
I hate to nitpick, but wasn't it the repulican governor or CA before Davis who did the 'Take off every regulation' part? thats one of the things that always baffled me about their stupid recall thing