Slashdot Mirror
Solving a Wiring Mess?
FueledByRamen asks: "While trying to run a new power line for a large Sun mass-storage cabinet (located nowhere near a 220 outlet of course), I had the misfortune of needing to pop the lid on my main power distribution panel (previously opened in the late 80s). The whole thing is a rats nest and probably a fire hazard - old-style wiring with broken-down cloth/plastic insulation strewn everywhere, and the utility's incoming power cables have some sort of junction in them that's the size of a 1-liter bottle (on each wire) and is covered in layers of electrical tape. Even (gently) putting the panel back on jiggled something important, and there was a nasty cracking noise and half the breakers blew (all breakers in one of the 2 columns). I've worked with mains voltage in the past (wiring new rooms, installing lighting), but nothing on this scale, both in terms of complexity and potential for death. How do you industrious Slashdot readers go about fixing a mess like this (on a tight budget, no less) without getting a mains-induced glimpse at the great beyond?"
Good god man, leave that mess alone and hire a professional that knows what they are doing. Don't ever put your life in the hands of Slashdot; are you utterly insane?
Maybe it's just me, but some things are worth paying for. I prefer juice in my stomach, not coursing through my entire body...
Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
pay someone who does it for a living, not a hobby. if they die, you dont have to worry. Its not something to do to save money... something are worth paying for.
sPh
I might not speak for everybody but I'd imagine that the majority of people went "Hire an electrician" when they read that story. I really don't think you want to be mucking around in there with "some sort of junction in them that's the size of a 1-liter bottle" as you don't appear to know what that is (neither do I).
I know you want to save money but you're likely to fry the electric equipment in your establishment and might take yourself with it. Hiring a professional would likely be cheaper in the long run.
You have two options:
1. Read National Electrician's Code and the
Emerald book (IEEE guide). Then figure out
who installed the wiring and get a full layout
from them. Buy electrician's equipment as
necessary. Fix the problem.
2. Hire an electrician. You'll still need full
layout of your wiring.
... then you shouldn't be doing it.
Sorry, but this is the kind of thing that only years of experience can help with. If you didn't look at it and already know how to approach the problem, you probably shouldn't be messing around in there, unless you have all the time in the world to experiment and learn your way through the mess.
First I was surprised that IANAL advice hasn't landed some "Ask Slashdotter" in prison. Now we're aiming for our first fatality?
Robots are everywhere, and they eat old people's medicine for fuel.
It sounds like one of the main buses in the box got shorted out. You really need to get the thing rewired by a licensed electrician.
If the panel is at work, it's probably illegal for you to work on it. In the immortalized words of Beowulf Schaeffer, "Its Worth Yore Life And More To Go In There!" Seriously, as an uber-l337 633K, you probably have the ability to find the place where the short occurred -- but do you really want to (A) monkey around in a box with live current (it sounds like that is your main box, not a subpanel); (B) stick your neck out by breaking the law for your employer; and (C) possibly assume liability for burning down the building? No? I didn't think so.
If you're at home, you're probably allowed to work on it -- but most places require you to get an electrical inspector to look at it once you're done. Unfortunately, doing this requires getting the local electrical code, so that you know what you're doing -- and that's a whole separate rant. The National Electrical Code is adopted into most municipalities' building codes -- but it's copyrighted by the National Fire Prevention Association. Fortunately, the Supreme Court recently decided that it's unconstitutional to attempt to copyright the law of the land. Unfortuantely, you can't get the electrical code online yet -- you probably still have to buy it.
If you are not a certified electrician that has been trained to deal with that voltage range do not attempt to do so.
If you are going ahead anyway. Take another person with you at all times. Your buddy should be able to shut down the entire mains current within slit seconds. Your buddy should have a wood/rubber/plastic or otherwise insulating device that can be used to knock you away from the power source if necessary.
Never use both hands, current will flow through your heart and spine. Do not wear anything metallic such as chains, watches, rings etc.
Remember that even if you wear double or triple insulation that a high enough electrical potential can break through anyway. I work with 600+ Volt pulse LASER capacitors and I've seen arcs go through plastic.
To reiterate. If your not qualified do not attempt to do the job. Anything that you do based on any of the above is your responsibility only.
Good Luck.
If you outlaw the law, only criminals will have laws
There is a reason that master electricians get paid the big bucks (and it's not all about just _surviving_, either).
;-) The situation you describe frankly sounds quite dangerous. Is burning the building down worth saving the cost of hiring a pro?
IANAE, but anyone can play anything on the web, right?
If you're *totally* determined to do it yourself, do the obvious. Turn off the upstream power (omit long-winded story of how to power a data center when the main is down - been there ). Make sure you understand what all the parts are, how to tell if they need replacing, and have replacements on hand before you start.
I would guess that there are innumerable sources of education and product sales in this area, so it shouldn't be *that* hard to figure out what everything is, why it is there and how to test it.
On the other hand, there *is* a learning curve involved, and I shouldn't need to point out the dangers of working on a *hot* box based soley on theoretical knowledge! How long do you have to learn how to fix it before you get more than just sparks?
Disclaimer: I've never done any hands-on on anything bigger than your average house feed. I do feel like I learned a lot from being a curious guy in general and having access to a Master Electrician for a couple years, including building out a new data center. And in your shoes, I would not undertake the task without hazard pay that would be higher than the cost of the electrician.
Another possibility is to call the power company, get them to take a look (say you smelled smoke, or saw sparks or something). I doubt they'll fix it, but they'll definitely escalate the problem for you.
If you're not living on the edge, you're just taking up space!
As a devoted employee trying to save your company money, the answer is obvious.
Step 1: Buy life insurance, lots of it. Name your employer sole beneficiary.
Step 2: Attempt to "fix" this yourself.
Step 3: PROFIT! The company can use the benefits (assuming the insurer doesn't use your actions as prima facie evidence of suicidal intent) to hire a professional to do the job right. You'll be dead, but that's a small price to pay, eh?
Seriously, what has our country come to where this is a legitimate question? Techies should be comfortable replacing wall switches and outlets, installing undercounter lighting, and other light work. But anything involving the main should go to the professionals without a second thought. If it's as bad as you said, it should also go to the lawyers - wasn't this building ever inspected? Who did this shoody work before, or allowed it to remain in such poor condition?
Think about it this way - imagine this was a manufacturing shop and people have routine cuts and burns and the like. No big deal, anyone with modest first aid skills can deal with it. But if somebody came in with a compound fracture and 4" of bone showing, would you patch them with the ace bandage and send them on their way? Or would you decide that this is one of those situations where you need to call in the professionals?
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
Call your local IBEW and hire a guy that knows what he's doing. For my own home, I've quite often done barter work to help "pay" for any electrical work I couldn't handle myself.
Many of the electrical contractors out there are looking to have a website built. And frankly it's a good trade. Even if they have to "Buy parts" it becomes a business expence and then is deductable, as is any website "billing" I do for them.
It's a win-win situation, and everyone thinks they got the best deal.
But the bottom line is, hire a professional. Your main power line is nothing you want to screw-up.
-Goran
Carpe Scrotum - The only way to deal with your competition.
This is a definate case where you *MUST* hire an electrician. I emphasize *MUST* because you're probably going to kill yourself in the process.
Most states and communities have laws saying electrical work must be done by a licensed electrician.
I forewarn you though, he's going to want to kill the power to that box while he works. If it's as much of a mess as you're saying, it's more than just the box that needs rewiring. All those old cloth insulated wires go somewhere, probably to more fire hazards throughout your building.
Get a contractor to have a look at it. Where you caused a short just by putting the lid on, you're not far from starting a fire, and be glad those breakers are working, they may have just saved your life, and your equipment.
I'm not saying this because I think work should be farmed out. I'm a firm believer that I can do anything. But, even I have limits. Rewiring a building is a bit beyond what I'm willing to do. Even if I was willing, I know perfectly well it would take too long doing by myself, which will probably be unhealthy for your companies income, if the servers are all down for too long.
Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
A electrical fire will put an even bigger dent in your "budget." You MUST hire a COMPENTENT electrican. (We had to replace gear went an incompotent wired out new 110 outlets 220. The Boss was "saving money") Comercial wiring is not where you cut corners. It's not a DIY thing. Not having it done by a certified professional may also void your insurance as well.
As you can see I don't care about my karma.
If the company can afford a new Sun SAN or similar, then they can afford to have a profeddional electrician fix the incoming lines and put in a new breaker box. This can't be more than 3 days of work unless they need to rerun all the lines.
Spend the money now before a mysterious power outage causes data loss.
Geesh...
If its beyond your ablity, dont even think of doing it yourself.
you could easly die, or burn the place down since you obviously dont have a good enough clue to be doing that sort of electrical work.
YOu dont live near me i hope.. *shudder*
---- Booth was a patriot ----
You will save yourself a lot of headaches downstream. There's a time to DIY and there's a time when experience is essential.
Think of it this way: if the wiring had been done properly before, you would not be having this problem now.
--- Ban humanity.
Basically, don't fsck with the stuff unless you know what you're doing.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
Yeah, I'm a little late for the party here. However, since I've seen electric utility safety films that make the worst drivers-ed film look tame, I've just got to say...
Sweet merciful crap, man! Please send Slashdot another note tomorrow that you hired somebody who fixed this - so we can see the report in a Slashback, and not be worrying that you're in our building somewhere.
Sweet merciful crap! I hope to goodness you're trolling.
In summary... Sweet merciful crap!
"Consider yourself a member of a virtual corporation with Mr. Torvalds as your Chief Executive Officer." - Linux Advocac
Actually, I was shocked by 220 volts in an accident. When I say shocked, I mean I was held on to it for approximately 45 to 60 seconds. I don't know which was worse, the resulting heart attack symptoms or having to explain to very dumb doctors why I couldn't let go and that 220 is a lot to suck up. To the original poster, don't be such a moron, call a damn electrician already. Besides frying yourself, did you even consider the liability issues? Guess who'll be investigated if the building burns down.
I lived in a rented house in college that had what turned out to be dangerous wiring.
LESSON 1: Polarity
Here's a cool tip for you. When wiring up electrical outlets, if you reverse the hot and the neutral lines, you actually create a voltage potential between the outlets. I discovered this because I touched the stove and the refridgerator at the same time accidentally. I got a huge jolt, shook a bit, and called the land lord.
LESSON 2: Breakers and Wiring Guages
If you should ever run wiring in your house, you need to make sure that the breaker that you use matches the capabilities of the wiring. If you should decide to run wiring into an attic using 15 amp capable wiring, it is a bad idea to put a 30 amp breaker on it. It's an even worse idea to hook up approximately 27 amps worth of electrical heaters to this circuit because it will cause the wiring in the wall to catch fire. Of course if one assumes that the person wiring the house isn't insane, you may not know to avoid plugging in said heaters.
LESSON 3: DOCTORS ARE NOT ELECTRICIANS
Eletricity isn't brain surgery, and just as you don't want an electrician siticking sharp metal objects into your brain, you don't want a doctor futzing with wiring. Actually I suppose if you are a doctor who does know how to work with electricity it would be okay, but the one who had previously owned our house had no clue on the subject. Worse, he had no clue and he mistakenly thought that he knew everything.
So, if you look in the electrical box and it instills fear in you, call a professional. Don't even think of doing it yourself.
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
All very good points!
:)
:)
However, I've seen a lot of work by *licensed* electricians that was terrible, too. Recently, as a matter of fact.
Point? Get an outside inspector to check the work after it's done. I'm not a licensed electrician, but I do know enough to do most home wiring (and some business too). When done I *always* have someone else inspect it. It's the old adage - you are most blind to your own mistakes. It holds true for professionals as well.
"(In New Jersey, you can negotiate with the building inspectors about not noticing things, but Darwin usually wants bigger bribes than they do...)"
Heh. So true. I have a 110v burn scar on my left hand from twenty years ago that constantly reminds me....to make sure that the power is off and not rely on the person that wired it to have wired it correctly (reversed hot/neutral). The person that did it in that case (my folks' home when I was living there) was a licensed electrician...for a little while longer.
"building code electrical code that says who's allowed to work on what kind of electricity."
Umm...most US states nowadays follow the UBC - and who is and who is not allowed is a seperate state law. It can get quite complicated.
Well put tho. Most of my coworkers think I'm way too paranoid about checking for hot wires. That's *their* problem
realityshunt
Democracy is susceptible to being led astray by having scapegoats paraded in front of the electorate.
Because of this design, there was a problem with unused components around the room charging automagically. It really was a room I didn't care much for.
There was a box of old flourescent tubes by the door, a long list of do's and don'ts, and a final summary in really big writing. It said something like:
1. Do not enter without a tube.
2. If the tube glows, go somewhere else.
3. Don't touch anything until you've seen someone else touch it first.