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Crippled CD Deemed Defective In France
Noryungi writes "The daily newspaper Liberation reports that at least one person got her money back, by suing EMI, no less. She was able to do that with the help of the largest consumer organization in France, which has its own list of articles on this subject.
So, French people who cannot read their copy-protected CDs can get their money back, but copy protection is not made illegal by the court decision... It's certainly a step in the right direction, though..."
For the French-impaired, an anonymous reader adds "The Register has a good article on EMI being forced to refund the cost of a copy-protected CD, because it was found to have a 'hidden defect' -- it wouldn't work on a car's CD player ... Is the tide changing?"
It's good to see not all countries have turned themselves over to corporate interests, but a victory in France (which doesn't exactly have a history of putting foreign corporate interests ahead of their own citizens) doesn't say much about the tide in the US.
Jason
ProfQuotes
Needless to say (but I'll say it anyway) the clear answer to that is:
"DON'T BUY COPY PROTECTED DISKS"
It's called boycotting and it works.
In Soviet Russia, the television watches YOU!
You are kidding, right? Do you honestly believe that EMI, let alone the record industry as a whole, is going to change their practices because of a single insignificant law suite that cost them a single CD and court costs? Here comes the clue train.
This will have no impact on them whatever. They will continue with business as usual and for each returned CD that they get, they will sell millions.
The only way for there to be a "changing tide" is if they are seriously affected monetarily, as in a major drop in sales, or if they are legally bound by a class action suite or something similar.
This is very interesting, and was probably the right thing to do.
After all, when one sells a disc that looks like a standard CD in a store that sells standard CDs, especially on the same racks as standard CDs, it is a reasonable assumption for the consumer to believe that the product is a standard CD.
If there were significant visible markings on the disc that said something to the effect of "This disc does not meet the red-book standard for Compact Disc Digital Audio" then it would be reasonable to allow the sale of the crippled CD -- after all, the manufacturer has made it apparent that this disc is not a Compact Disc, but that it *might* support some of the same functionality. If you are concerned, don't buy, if you buy, well, you were warned.
This is how I feel the "broken CD game" should be played. I have no problem with companies trying to peddle "broken" CDs, just so long as every consumer knows that it is "broken"
As for the CDs/DVDs that become opaque after a certain time? I'm not sure what to do there. You see, the trouble stems from the fact that, until it becomes opaque, the disc conforms to the standard. Still, I am certain that an appropriate "warning label" can be determined.
In the end, it ought to be up to an informed market to decide whether "broken" or "sudden-death" media are acceptable -- not the government to mandate.
That said, I applaud the decision made, and will continue to support these kinds of decisions until it is made blindingly obvious which disks are crippled
So a symbol with a PC with an "X" through it is supposed to communicate clearly to consumers that the CD won't work IN A CAR STEREO?
Unless the CD said is was designed to fail in the type of equipment she tried to use it in, I think there is definitely a reasonable consumer expectation that a CD will produce music if placed in a CD player, unless otherwise notified. Call me kooky.
I doubt that this means much. Just like the guy who was able to get $200 back from some major OEM for Windows XP by taking it to small claims, it's not going to change "business". It will take hundreds of those kind of lawsuits and the accompanying legal bills to make a difference. I mean, if you're spending $1 million in attorney's fees to represent a company for $100k in refunds, what do you think you're going to do? Look at how effective "our" /. boycott on the RIAA, Sony, Disney, et al is. A few loud mouth geeks don't mean anything in the real world. Remember high school? Remember how nobody listened to you because you were just a nerd and were "uncool"? What makes you think things have changed just because you're an adult? We can raise a stink, but no one cares. They're still writing the checks, consuming like mindless idiots, and the vocal minority still doesn't get what we want. You have to think to yourself that most of the Joe Consumer's out there will buy a defective product and if it doesn't work, are still too lazy to take it back (see Radar Jammers).
If you were me, you'd be good lookin'. - six string samurai
Possibly a stupid question: Does a copy-protected CD actually follow the CD specification from Philips et al.?
It is understandable that the music industry would want to have copy-protection on the CDs they distribute to curb piracy. However, their current piecemeal approach leads to situations such as these - where some CDs can be read only in some readers.
Secondly, this type of copy-protection is a clear violation of the rights of any person who buys such a CD. Under U.S. and Canadian copyright laws (I don't know the European equivalents), a person has the right to make one copy of a legally purchased CD for backup/archival purposes.
I suggest that the Music Industry come together and create a new standard for copyright protection that
Obligatory pointing out the OBVIOUS about the McDonald's case:
The woman was still stupid and should have been at greater fault (she was found to be partially at fault and the reward was reduced proportionally) because opening hot coffee in your lap is stupid regardless of the temperature.
The fact that the coffee was hot enough to give third degree burns doesn't make this any less stupid. Do you think she would have cared what temperature the coffee was at when she did this? If the sign had said "Warning: Coffee causes third degree burns" do you think she would have acted differently? Assuming she's mentally stable she doesn't go around her daily life deciding whether to do things or not based on how bad a burn she gets ("Gee, I should touch the hot stove, I only get a second degree burn this way!") so why was this important for her coffee?
If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
And if you were living in the states, you'd have committed a federal crime, by violating the DMCA. As you circumvented a copy protection system.
I find it somewhat bizare that EMI would even littigate the case. The product was clearly defective as manufactured and so under EU law the consumer has an absolute right to a full refund. No pissy-US '90 day' guarantees here. If you sell something that is broke the consumer gets a refund, period.
As for the wider political context, don't forget what the French Ambassador to the UN said on the subject of Iraq, basically that France belives it is not opposing US interests, just that it believes it has a better idea of what those interests are. The US came to regret not taking French advice in Vietnam and according to Paris will come to regret not taking their advice on the subject of invading Iraq.
From this we can deduce two things, first that the French can be insufferably arrogant for such a small country whose military success under Napoleon turned out to be what the music industry would call a 'one hit wonder', being followed by flop after flop. The only recent successes being in the consolation prize category of 'quickest surrender'. And no Jaques, the magnificent conquest of the Sahara desert does not qualify a country as an empire. The test of an empire is not merely the acreage under occupation, the locals have to actually be at least aware of the occupation.
The other thing we may deduce is that despite the fact they are frequently arrogant and obnoxious the French are frequently right, particularly when it comes to the 'stop the US from pig-headed self defeating policy blunder' category.
Looking for an Information Security student project suggestion?
Try http://dotcrimeManifesto.com/
I normally consider myself a die-hard american. I tend to support our government through thick and thin. But as of late, it seems like European government (courts especially) are the only ones that care to protect their citizens. Look back through Slashdot articles for the past week or two. You'll see what I mean.
I had never considered moving to another country. But the more European governments step up to this crap while our own government takes the DMCA attitude, the better my chances of visiting the EU for an extended stay.
Slashdot Syndrome: the sudden, extreme urge to correct someone in order to validate one's self.
Might just be fun to go into a record store and ask why they put a disc that clearly isn't a CD (no label) in the CD-section.
What are you, a masochist? Have you seen the people they hire in record stores these days? I don't know about you, but if I wanted to make a point, it wouldn't be with one of those simpletons.
Mod down people who tell people how to mod in their sigs
What if you needed special glasses to see the great works of art from the Renasance?
Copyright law is about giving companies a way to profit from selling their works for a limited time before said works become part of our collective culture. Just because computers enter into the picture does not make it okay to take a jackhammer to tradition.
"Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
--Dr.W.Edwards Deming
Please don't let France know your opinion - they'll become insufferable.
Oh, yeah, and don't let the Department of Homeland Security or the Justice Department know either.
For obvious reasons.
To celebrate the occasion of my 1000th post, I will post no more forever on Slashdot. Goodbye.
if the new media can be plugged into anything that can be programmed, the game is over. Even if it's not, you can still re-capture the (analog) audio with a sound card and make a pretty good copy. it's not perfect but but people will still do it. I don't think there's anything the RIAA can do at this point. And this is the tale of what's to come for the movie industry with DVD ripping/burning.
there's no place like ~
No, then the RIAA will just blame piracy for the drop in sales, like always, and press Congress/law enforcement agenecies to track down these horrible pirates to protect their old and failing business model. They've done it before, they'll do it again. And again. And again. And again. And...
Space for rent, inquire within
: Is opening up a cup of coffee over your lap the
: smartest thing? perhaps not. But why would you sell
: something at a drive thru-window that people would
: have to get out of there car to open?
Because if you are able to accomplish this feat of legerdemain without burning yourself (as 99.9% of people seem able to do), then you should have right to buy your coffee piping hot. Stupid and/or clumsy people have the choice to buy their coffee from restaurants that don't make it so hot. Don't take away the rights of the vast, vast majority to get their coffee hot, the way they like it.
It's attitudes like this ("Everything that's gone wrong in my life is someone else's fault") that makes life in the US so stressful and expensive for those of us who think it isn't right to blame someone else for everything.
Things are seriously at the point now that I can't even leave a hedge trimmer sitting on the floor near a window for fear that someone I didn't invite into my home (i.e., a burglar) would accidentally cut off his fingers and successfully sue me for damages encountered in the process of his performing an illegal act. The stress of having to worry about every little thing that I could possibly be sued for is the clearest argument (IMO) for tort reform.
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One of the least effective ways of getting something to stop is telling people to stop doing it (especially on /.)
When a thing has been said, and said well, have no scruple. Take it and copy it. --Anatole France
To have military victories is not an achievement, it's merely a proof of the failure that lead up to the armed conflict.
On the one hand, you link to a (very accurate) anti-Bush site in your sig. On the other, you've bought into the anti-French propaganda pushed by the same right-wing idiots that site criticizes. The fact is that the French military record overall is no better or worse than the record of most of the other great powers. Win a few, lose a few; that's the way it goes.
The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
Fine, let them blame piracy.
If it's piracy then the "protection" obviously isn't working.
Boycotting will do some good,,,
In Soviet Russia, the television watches YOU!
It's called boycotting and it works.
Not if you don't let them know you're boycotting. As another poster said, they'll blame the lost sales on other things. It might be better to buy copy protected CD's and then return them for a refund with an explanation that it didn't work, or that you didn't realize it was copy protected and you don't buy copy protected CD's (to ensure compatibility with future hardware purchases).
--
As a matter of fact, I am a lawyer. But I play an actor on TV.
That works quite well for somethings, games consoles with proprietory storage devices like cartridges, but it becomes expensive. PS2's have DVD drives and that works pretty well because a) not as many people have DVD writers and b) it requires modding the hardware. The only reason i have ever bought PS2 games is because its too hard for me to copy or download them but thats only temporary - if i ever got a dvd burner and could easily download full iso's or swap with friends then that would be it for paying. With music its very different. Music is just sound in the end and whatever lock-in hardware system you design, as long as it has an output someone will have an input ;) Although they are trying this anyway with their stupid new system i cant remember what the piece of shit is called..
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Do you think she would have cared what temperature the coffee was at when she did this?
Yes.
If the sign had said "Warning: Coffee causes third degree burns" do you think she would have acted differently?
Yes. Though that would still be stupid, a cup which has enough structural rigidity to not collapse without the lid would be a better solution.
Assuming she's mentally stable she doesn't go around her daily life deciding whether to do things or not based on how bad a burn she gets ("Gee, I should touch the hot stove, I only get a second degree burn this way!") so why was this important for her coffee?
That's exactly what everyone does.
I don't put on safety gloves when I get a can of coke from a vending machine. I assume it will be cold but not so cold as to hurt me. If the vending machine operator decided that keeping the cans in liquid nitrogen made them last longer I would expect some warning about the unexpected temperature the cans would be.
When I buy a coffee I expect it to be reasonably hot and I take suitable care. I don't tip it over my head, for example. However, I don't put on safety gear before buying my morning coffee. I don't make sure everybody around me keeps at least a meter away. Since I know if someone bumps into me and my coffee splashes onto my chest it won't do serious damage - it'll just wet my shirt. If the coffee vendor decided that the coffee would be better if it was acidic enough to eat through clothing and skin, then I would expect some warning - and I would take more precautions...
When I buy a slice of pizza I don't test the temperature with a thermometer. I assume it is at a suitable temperature for eating, though the first bite might be a bit careful in case the cheese is too hot. I assume it isn't hot enough to burn my hand through the plate as I hold it though.
Everyone I see does numerous things everyday that are slightly risky because the potential damage is small enough to not be worth taking more care.
If the potential damage of those actions suddenly increased they would want some warning.
I've spilt coffee on myself before. All it did was make my clothes a bit wet. I've never spilt any potent acids on myself (even though I used them way back when I was doing chem. eng.). I must have been more careful with the acid than with the coffee. I did exactly what you seem to think is abnormal. I figured wearing safety gear and being very precise about my movements wasn't necessary when I was carrying the cup of coffee down the hall, because the damage it could do (making me wet) wasn't worth the hassle.
Then again, maybe you walk around in a plastic bubble (after all you could catch a virus and die - that's a pretty serious thing) and handle your hot coffee and cold coke with tongs.
My CD-players say "Compact Disc Digital Audio" and not "Copy-Controlled CD", therefore, my CD-players are not compatible with these CDs and must be returned. Period.
:( The store didn't even make me aware of this, naturally, they just want to sell whatever they have blindly.
BTW: Have any of you seen the Copy-Controlled labels on these CDs? It's always on a TRANSPARENT sticker, making it as hard as possible to spot, but just enough to hold in court. Slick! I sure as hell didn't know until I put it in my CD-player on the computer at home, finding it wouldn't play. The CD (Radiohead) was returned.
As for these Midbar/Macrovision guys (the guys who made these "protections" (*cough* programmers with screw-drivers *cough*)), they must be wizards in the field of business. I mean, managing to fool the music industry giving them false hopes like this.
Midbar/Macrovision
Why the protection is completely useless: if you can play it, you can copy it. I don't see how it matters with copy-controlled CDs in that respect. Especially in the Internet world, where it's enough with one person sharing it, and given the fact that audio compressions are lossy means that it doesn't matter much what the heck your source was when recording it quality-wise.
Geez. Wake up!
Yeah, whatever. But this article really made my day. At least someone pays attention to this open injustice.
Nobody should be distributing 180 - 190 F liquids to the public FOR ANY REASON, ESPECIALLY AS A FOOD PRODUCT! This is not just 'hot coffee', this is scalding liquids which caused 3rd degree burns. If you had to work with 180 liquids as a part of your job, you would have protective gear and OSHAA regulations all over the place. Why do people think McDonalds should get away with handing this stuff out to people in the drive through?
Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
-- Pablo Picasso
That is so true. After all, look at France's diplomacy in the late 1930s.
So if your estimate is that 1 in 1000 people burn themselves, how many cups of coffee are sold per day? Divide that by a thousand, and multiply it by the cost of a casualty department treating burns.
Those individuals' insurance companies should pay for that cost, and those individuals' premiums should go up as a result of the economic consequences of their risky behavior. I shouldn't have my liberties reduced because some people are dumb.
What, you've never fallen over?
I'm smart enough not to buy 190 degree coffee, because I know I'm clumsy! As one of my friends said recently, people should not be able to use the courts to turn their stupidity into an asset.
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The point was it was so hot no human being could consume it safely. That woman had third degree burns on the insides of her legs. Do you have an asbestos mouth?