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Steven Clift writes "I've written up an article titled E-Democracy, E-Governance, and Public Net-work. It illustrates how governments can do more with the Internet to meet public challenges. While the big bad government should be viewed skeptically in terms of censorship and regulation, it also does a million good things related to the non-techie parts of our lives. The question is not whether the government should use the Internet to involve people in meeting their public mission, but how to apply technology in the most effective way."

19 of 135 comments (clear)

  1. The real problem with "E-Democracy" by Soulfader · · Score: 4, Insightful
    ...is not communication between the public and the governing bodies; it is meaningful communication. The greatest advantage of the Internet age--I can talk to anyone and anyone can talk to me without filters or gatekeepers--is also the greatest flaw. Ever try to have a meaningful conversation with a crowd of people?

    Envision government running like "The Price is Right," with the audience screaming out the policy decisions. =)

    I haven't finished the article yet, but I don't have much hope that there is a proffered reasonable solution.

    1. Re:The real problem with "E-Democracy" by Mr_Matt · · Score: 4, Insightful

      was gonna mod, decided to post instead...

      so what your saying is that people are not capable of governing themselfs and that we need a ruling class???

      No...what they're saying is "e-democracy" falls short of real democracy insofar as real democracy contains a measure of order, brought about by the inherent limitations of communication IRL. (Notice how parliamentary rules have evolved to address this very issue in our various forms of government.) Grandparent poster's point is that 'e-democracy' removes these communication limitations, thereby removing orderly dissemination of the democratic process, leading to mob-dominated chaos. Thus does 'e-democracy' fall short of real democracy. Kindly remove the aluminum beanie. :)

      --


      But what does my opinion matter, I just vote here. It's not like I have any money or anything.
  2. why not direct democracy by adamruck · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Part of the orginal justification of representitive democracy was that it was logisticly impossible to have everyone vote on every topic. But now that electronic voting is an option why do we still need representatives?

    --
    Selling software wont make you money, selling a service will.
    1. Re:why not direct democracy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      E-voting still isn't quite there... and do you realize how many issues there would be to vote on?

    2. Re:why not direct democracy by goldspider · · Score: 5, Insightful
      "But now that electronic voting is an option why do we still need representatives?"

      1. Because mob-rule (pure democracy) is a bad idea.

      2. Because most people don't even give a shit about who's PRESIDENT, let alone every minor issue our representatives get paid (well) to address.

      --
      "Ask not what your country can do for you." --John F. Kennedy
    3. Re:why not direct democracy by Obfuscant · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Why? When the majority of people want a certain action to be taken then that is what will be voted for. How is this bad?

      It's called "the tyranny of the majority".

      Once upon a time, a majority of people thought that owning slaves was ok. I'm not sure that it still isn't that way, at least in some parts of the country. Is it ok to pass laws making slavery ok, or would that be bad?

      In some parts of the country, a majority of people think that killing fags is a fun thing to do on a Saturday night. Would you allow them to vote in a law making it legal?

      At one point, a majority of people thought it was quite acceptable to round up all the citizens of Oriental descent and pack them into concentration camps.

      On Sept. 12, 2001, I bet you would have found a clear majority of people that would have voted "yes" on a law that deported every person with a middle eastern heritage. (My God! Who'd serve us the Slurpees?) And before you say "that's unconstitutional", remember that it takes only a 2/3 majority to change that.

      Yes, those are gross examples, but it's not hard to find more realistic ones. Here in Oregon we have citizen initiatives. Get enough people to sign a petition and you can get just about anything on a ballot and voted on. Sometimes this is good. Sometimes it is good in the short term but bad in the long.

      For example, several years ago we voted a rollback and limit on property taxes. Instead of this resulting in an actual limitation in taxes, it resulted in:

      • Dramatic increases in assesed value for property, thus putting the actual dollar amount for taxes back to what they used to be.
      • Weasly politicians who sneak new taxes into anything they can, so they don't have to think about cutting budgets. (We pay a 5% tax on water, not to fund water related things, but for the city general fund. It's called a 'franchise fee', so it isn't a tax. Really. It isn't.)
      • A legislature that sits on its ass letting the problem of funding things get out of hand, hoping that the next initiative will fix things for them.
      Most of the majority doesn't understand things well enough to know which way to vote on them. They vote with their emotions. (Politicians count on this -- Our Veritable Senator Wyden tried defeating our Veritable Senator Smith with a commercial that claimed that Smith had killed a kid, because a teenage worker had died in an accident at one of Smith's companies. How this relates to Smith's abilities as a Senator, nobody really knows.)

      Hell, one of the initiatives we had on a recent ballot, where there were about 'leventy-dozen things, was whether we should allow non-dentists to fit false teeth. Sheesh, who the hell knows if this is good or bad?

      Why is that when the general populace votes for a president ...

      This is a myth. There is no popular vote for the President. There is no country-wide vote that the people participate in. There are state-by-state votes which are used, in most cases, to select a handful of Electors, who then cast the actual votes for the President. They don't even have to vote for the candidate they were elected to vote for!

      As I recall, it wasn't too long ago that one state, NM I believe, didn't have a statewide vote for Electors, they were appointed by the Senate. The Constitution does not mandate how the Electors are elected.

      You should read the Constitution sometime. All of it. It's a real eye-opener when you then compare it to what is going on now.

    4. Re:why not direct democracy by sapped · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Because a president, legislator, or other elected official (good or bad) is much less fickle (and potentially more compassionate) than a mob.

      I am still looking for the mob here. You have failed to answer my original question as to why direct democracy will result in this so-called "mob".

      How do you figure that 1 person - who as we have seen first hand can be "bought" with campaign contributions will be more compassionate? In that instance we only have to sway 1 person and bam we can ram something down people's throats. With direct democracy, we would have to sway the majority of the peoples opinions to do the same.

      Now, remember with direct democracy there are no politicians as we know them today, so less incentive for campaigns.

      Sure, nobody denies the fact that people will vote for stupid things the first time around.

      e.g. we will have no speed limits on freeways, virtually non-existent taxes, etc.

      However, 2nd time round once the consequences of their direct actions become evident, then I believe the vote will start changing.

  3. Just imagine by QuantumRiff · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If your local governments started putting public information online in a searchable format. Do a simple search on your local govt web site to get minutes of committe meetings, forclosures, law changes, heck, just put all the local laws and requlations in a database that is easily searchable. That would make it much easier for people to find laws and regulations. In my town at least, you either read about the town meetings in the local, and very crappy newspaper, or you have to trudge down to city hall and ask to see it. Not to mention putting on these websites who these elected and appointed leaders are, and what they have voted for and against. Nationwide, any state, county or city.. Would make it much easier to decide who to vote for, and what they have stood for in the past..

    --

    What are we going to do tonight Brain?
  4. direct democracy not necessarily better by *weasel · · Score: 5, Insightful

    precisely because it is not feasible for everyone with a vote to be informed on every decision.

    your representative has a team of highly specialized and highly dedicated aides whose job it is to know the entire issue.

    they have the training and the time to do so. you or i, do not. not reliably, and not for every subject. are you going to pretend that having citizens directly vote on every contract extension for every union is a good idea? or how about directly voting on the budget, or social spending plans?

    the collective doesn't have the same burden of responsibility. yes, representative democracy has a flaw (susceptible to corruption) but it also has enough benefits that it's a worthwhile system. it also has a large check (term limits, reelection) to ensure that the citizens have a measure of control over the graft.

    --
    // "Can't clowns and pirates just -try- to get along?"
    1. Re:direct democracy not necessarily better by Telastyn · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Then why can't the aide inform citizens about the entire issue, just like they inform the representative?

      While I mostly agree that having slashdot polls for laws are a bad idea, I'm not so sure that informing the populace is one of the major problems. Having an educated populace in the first place would be a good start...

    2. Re:direct democracy not necessarily better by VEGx · · Score: 2, Insightful
      your representative has a team of highly specialized and highly dedicated aides

      True, but then again, do we really want the specialized and dedicated aides from Disney to decide what the law will be? Or Mirco$oft?

      While you are right, you can also be wrong...

    3. Re:direct democracy not necessarily better by fizban · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Buddy, I have little time enough for my own personal issues, much less the issues of my country. I'd rather vote by proxy by choosing someone to represent me in Congress who follows my general line of thinking and can make more informed decisions than I could, not because I'm not smart enough, but because I don't have the time to invest in becoming informed about every damn little issue that comes up.

      I can personally filter my own mail for spam, but I'd rather delegate that to my automated filter, cause I just don't have the desire or time to do it myself. I trust my spam filter will make the correct decisions and if it doesn't, well then I'll get a new spam filter.

      --

      +1 Insightful, -1 Troll. What can I say, I'm an Insightful Troll.

  5. Government thinks you're stupid by John+Jorsett · · Score: 4, Insightful
    While the big bad government should be viewed skeptically in terms of censorship and regulation, it also does a million good things related to the non-techie parts of our lives.

    Unfortunately, one goes with the other. You let government do "a million good things" for you and its natural instinct is to do even more. For your own good of course. That includes censorship and regulation. Government thinks you can't handle your own affairs, so it'll just have to do it for you, you stupid clod.

  6. Direct democracy--no thanks. by Soulfader · · Score: 2, Insightful
    It cuts the middlemen (politicians) out and that is always a good things.
    Do you have time, expertise, and desire to research and legislate every issue that affects you? I don't.

    For all of the flaws in our particular system, it provides a decent compromise. If the majority of the citizenry could be bothered to research and pick out their representatives with a bit more care, I might believe that they could responsibly legislate. But if they did that, they wouldn't really need to, would they?

  7. Just a Million Good things? by Googol · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Why not billions and billions of good things? How about Trillions? The Government should only do one thing well, you know, like good Unix design philosophy. This was known in the 19th century: Bastiat pans Socialism

  8. Re:E-democracy *should mean* direct voting by stratjakt · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The constitution sure did define basic human rights. It defines a black man as worth 2/3rds of a white man. This wasn't considered "evil", it was completely natural and normal.

    If e-voting on every issue, how do you figure there'd be no DMCA or PATRIOT act? I'd wager there'd be a much stricter PATRIOT act, if you weren't paying attention, the general populous was pretty blinded with rage after 9/11. I'd be the majority of americans would have passed the "make the middle east a nuclear wasteland" act if it were put on the table on 9/12.

    The majority of citizens think copyright infringement is theft, Napster was a criminal enterprise, and that it should be illegal to modify your xbox. I remember a poll that showed a majority who thinks the speed limits on public roads should be LOWERED.

    Your premise is everyone feels about everything the same way that you do. They dont. The majority of the voting populous is much older than you and fairly conservative in their views.

    --
    I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
  9. The good and the bad. by magoolsu · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Good:
    It would allow the goverment to quickly pass information to the public and give them a almost instant response to that new information. This could save money, speed up goverment projects, and make goverment more democratic and better for the people.

    Bad:
    It would leave a disproportionate percentage of the poor out of the picture. Its is much harder for a poor person to buy a computer and surf the net, and there are not always computers avaible at public labs and librarys. It might increase the divide between the well off and the not so weel off.

    I love my wife!

    1. Re:The good and the bad. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Bad: It would leave a disproportionate percentage of the poor out of the picture. Its is much harder for a poor person to buy a computer and surf the net, and there are not always computers avaible at public labs and librarys. It might increase the divide between the well off and the not so weel off.

      I disagee. Take a look at the inner city projects that offer free internet access to libaries, and other non-profit centers. While I've got an excellent network at home, I can walk into any library in Atlanta and use a system with net access. The issue isn't the cost involved, but rather the time required to learn to use the system.

  10. That's not direct democracy, sorry. by Soulfader · · Score: 2, Insightful
    That's not direct democracy. Read again.
    Issues come up for voting, and there would be a place where I could go and see the most popular arguements on both sides and the views of critics and pundits and politicos of my choosing regarding the issues in question if I like, and vote directly on the issues. Or, if I am busy, perhaps I could earmark my representatives by expertise. Perhaps I want to earmark a respected doctor as my representative for medical issues, greenspan as my economic representative, nader as my consumer rights representative... and have their votes count for mine as default unless I actively change my rep for a particular issue or earmark an issue as "manual".
    You don't vote on issues; you vote on bills. And notice that almost immediately he assigns responsibility for his vote on a wide range of things to a representative. Only the method for choosing the representative is different. Please note, I'm not saying this is a bad idea. It's intriguing, really, and maybe even workable, but it isn't direct democracy, where every citizen is voting (or able to vote) on every issue.

    At one end of the scale, we have everyone voting on everything--total participation. At the other end, we have zero participation--no one cares. By assigning the task of governance to full time employees whose job it is to represent the interest of a block of voters, we can hopefully find a happy medium in there, where everyone is adequately represented without having to be a full time voter.

    Once the novelty of direct democracy wore off, I think we would find that the only people who voted on any given issue were the ones who felt that they had a direct stake in it; everyone else would default to their judgment: tyranny of the majority at its worst. It would be another kind of representative government, really, except that the reps would be self-selecting.