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CS Master's Degrees - US vs. EU Programs?
Monty asks: "I'm currently exploring my options and I've been wondering, is it worthwhile to seek education overseas--specifically the EU? Edsgar Dijkstra was of the opinion, though controversial, that American and European CS programs were fundamentally different (see his later writings in the E.W. Dijkstra Archives). What makes the EU interesting, in that light, is that it seems to have more openly embraced things like functional programming. So, if I want to focus my study on something of a more functional nature, are schools in the EU a better choice? What are the implications of returning to North America for employment with a foreign degree? Do they have to be accredited as proof of validity or are they usually recognized by themselves here in the US?"
If not for the degree at least to be more open to the world.
If you think all university experiences are the same you are crazy. Also I said given that EVERYTHING else was the same - which it never is.
Yes, I am much more impressed with somebody fresh out of college who has a degree from Stanford, or UIUC than someone who has a BSCS from Arkansas st... That said, if the person from Arkansas St has something that makes them stand out (significant project experience, etc.) sure they get hired...
I have mod points and I am not afraid to use them
As a hiring manager, unless you go to a school I've heard of, in an English-speaking country, I'm probably not going to think very highly of your degree.
You may have lost countless excellent graduates as a result of that mentality. I once heard a hiring manager insist in the strongest possible terms, over countless objections, that they had never heard of Carnegie-Mellon and therefore the CS program couldn't possibly be any good. I would never accuse you of being that ignorant. But it is still fair to ask: how many schools have you heard of, and how familiar are you with their programs?
Ask anyone on the street to list every college they've ever "heard of" and you'll rarely find anyone who can name a couple of dozen (not counting "University of [STATE]"). With 3400 colleges in this country, a couple of dozen is less than 1%. I usually follow up by showing them a list of the top 10% of US colleges -- 340 schools, mind you -- and watch as they realize how little they really know. And why should they? Who besides college counselors can recognize 340 schools?
It might be interesting to go through your own company's roster and see where people went as an undergraduate. You may well find the prestige schools are quite underrepresented, and rightly so: as with many things, college reputations are pure popularity contests and have relatively little to do with merit.
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Dum de dum.
Freedom is not the license to do what we like, it is the power to do what we ought.
In defense of the original poster, click the Dijkstra Archives link and take a look at what Dijkstra had to say. So far, I've found this one, Computer Science: Achievements and Challenges (beware, PDF).
No, the two programs can't be compared in a general sense of which one is better or whatnot, but general tendencies in academia can, and sometimes do follow certain trends defined by geographic area. It only makes sense because physically close institutions are more readily accessible to one another and therefore influence each other more than say, two institutions divided by an entire ocean.
In the case of CS, it's almost exactly as Dijkstra puts it and as the original story implies--that there's more going on in mathematical and functional circles on the European side of things. Imo, it's not for no reason that ocaml arose out of France; there's simply more research groups over there doing this kind of stuff.
Using a foreign degree in North America could be a risky thing. I will derive anecdotal evidence from 'The National' which is a show aired by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. The article can be found here, and you'll have to find the phrase, "Designer Immigrants" within the article.
The evidence does not completely fit with your question, but it is definitely an eye opener.
The article talks about a man coming from England who has a degree from Middlesex University. In addition, this man has five accounting certificates. In short, he has a recognized skill. He speaks English and has a brother in Canada. So, he decided to move to Edmonton in search of a better life.
Upon arriving, he sends off 3,000 resumes for entry level accounting positions. Four years later, not a single job offer for a permanent position. Why? Because his foreign degree and skills were not recognized.
A direct quote from the article, "Doctors, engineers and other people are facing the same problem. So, I mean, what's the point of increasing the point level and either of them have to have a PhD. What do they want PhD to come here and clean the toilet or deliver the pizza or run the mini-cab or something like that?"
Another quote that's interesting, "One study of skilled immigrant incomes shows that a foreign education is valued at only half of what a Canadian education nets on the job market. Foreign work experience is valued by Canadian employers at approximately zero....My analysis has shown that it is getting more severe over time. That immigrant skills are being discounted today more heavily than they were in the past."
This doesn't completely answer your question as the evidence presented deals with immigrants. Nevertheless, it does show that foreign degrees are not viewed equally and are deeply discounted by employers in North America.
"There is no spoon." - The Matrix
Thus a U.S. associates degree looks to me like the equivalent of a European bachelors degree, a Europen masters degree becomes the equivalent of the U.S. bachelors degree, and the European PhD like a U.S. PhD candidate. Three years is also too short to have a year abroad as a junior and then integrate these experiences in your senior year.
On the flip side, I haven't heard that it's necessary to teach basic algebra or spelling / grammar to college freshmen and sophmores in Europe like is often the case in the U.S.
Ok. Grousing aside, I highly recommend studying overseas as an undergraduate. If you're in U.S. goto Europe. If you're in Europe, goto Australia / New Zealand. As a graduate, choose the best program / advisor.
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
Um, I'm not sure what you mean, because I think the original story implies EU has the US beat over some of the more theoretical aspects of CS, and not the other way around, but ok... The real question doesn't seem to be about reputation of the school and how much social status it'll earn, rather, he's asking about the type of education that he'll get.
Yes, the majority of people seem to hate functional programming, but if it's this guy's interest, then he has every right to pursue it. And quite frankly, it really is something more emphasized in parts of the EU than the US. I have heard of many Europeans who have had educations based on ML-variants and Haskell....
This wouldn't really matter as much if he was asking about undergraduate schools, but when it comes to graduate schools, it really does matter what's being researched in a particular place, because that's where he's going to be spending all his research time and also where he's going to draw his research advisor from.