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No Americans Need Apply
Victor G. Sommers writes "Daniel Soong, who lost his programming job to Indian offshore companies, is willing to relocate to India. 'It would be really interesting to work in Bangalore,' he says. 'But I was told, "Daniel, it is against the law for you to work here. You can come here on vacation, but you can't work here."' Indian officials have told him they don't hire Americans." An article in ComputerWorld talks about the possibility of getting more than you bargained for in outsourced code.
The laws are probably similar to the US:
You can't immigrate to work unless you can prove that you can do a job that no one else in the country can do.
If it wasn't for this law, the US would be flooded (more so than now) with techs and doctors from all over asia.
alias uptime="echo '5:33pm up 22342352324 days, 6:28, 2124315623 users, load average: 2432.40, 12312.31, 123123.19'"
USA is also a sovereign country. Let's do the same. It's about time we stop issuing visas to people who steal native born Americans' jobs.
Before some slashbot calls me a racist, let me tell you that I don't care if you are a black, white, hindu, christian, jew or a muslim. If you're American, I've got nothing against you. But if you think you should be able to just waltz in and have a job or study at one of our universities, think again.
of the two is the malware threat. Most countries have labor restrictions (when i went to an improv festival in Toronto, Canadian officials wanted to be certain I wasn't there to make $25 or so performing somewhere some night). But the risk of getting a little extra code in your outsourced project is something about which execs ought to be aware.
Terrycloth Lobster
Unlike the US, India, being a developing nation, with a very large economy has always had a dirth of jobs. There are a few hundred people to fill up a single job vacancy. Thus, India has *never* felt the need for foreign employees.
However, I know for a fact that a large number of Americans/Europeans (and even Russians in defense companies) regularly work on contract basis. I had a Russian neighbor long back, working in India on a 2 year contract with a defense company.
So people, before you start flaming, ponder over the fact that a law for hiring outside employees doesn't exist because there hasn't ever been a need for it. Now with the outsourcing, it may not be too long before the government comes up with an H-1 like plan.
An Indian-American Hindu committed to non-violent thought/speech/action alarmed by the global explosion of radical Islam
OK, I had accepted the fact that H1B's killed the IT job market for Americans. Competition and all that. That's just fine. Shit happens. But if Americans can't work in India, then let's kick the damn H1B's out of this country. I had NO IDEA that Americans couldn't get an Indian job. If that really is true (although no real good source was cited), I say fuck 'em and give 'em the boot until India wants to open up it's doors to American workers.
But as a Dutch citizen you can follow your job to Germany or the UK or Italy, because within the EU there is free trade for both labor and for capital. "Free trade" advocates these days want free movement of capital and goods, but not workers.
In WTO-world, corporations can move their jobs across borders but workers cannot follow. This one-sidedness pushes salaries down everywhere, as companies seek the cheapest available labor.
Our company is getting ready to send someone over to India to head up some outsourcing. He's British, but that should not be any significant difference. I haven't heard of any barrier for foreigners working in India. Anyone care to cite some relevant Indian law, rather than a few words at the tail end of an article?
I have to inject dull ol' reality into another 'The Indians Are Coming!' flap, but why exactly is it surprising that he can go to India on holiday and can't work there? Does he have a work visa for India? Are Indians allowed to work in the US with no visa?
I always figured the general pattern was that to work in country A, you need to be a citizen of country A or have a work permit issued by country A. Did this suddenly stop applying in the case of Americans wanting to work in India?
Other than that, well, it's a competitive marketplace. If other people are selling the same skills -- or what are percieved as the same skills -- cheaper, then he's got to change something.
Incidentally, I've known some terrible experiences with outsourcing to cheap countries and I think it's generally a false economy. But on the other hand, I think I'd rather have a disoriented and inexperienced Indian working for me than listen to this guy's whining.
Whence? Hence. Whither? Thither.
Here is a prime example of one of the main problems of free trade. Corporations are free to trade jobs off to some developing nation where wages are minimal but people are not allowed to move to where the jobs are. Perhaps someday we will negotiate trade agreements which guarantee a fair living standard for workers reguardless of where they live.
Oh, and I'm sure that the unemployed masses have the funds to sue corporations for giving preference to H1s.
"It's a very tangled subsystem." --Windows kernel guru
1) I used to work writing gambling software (ethically, I knew it was going to fold). There is a rather attractive woman who lives in Marin and is rather wealthy who owns/runs a set of gambling web sites. Her dev team is in India. She's young, beautiful and rich.
2) I use Macromedia Director extensively on a mac. I have since 1987. I even worked on Director for about 4 years at Macromedia. Director MX for the mac was ported by a company in India. IT SUCKS ASS. A vast majority of "details" that make software great are gone. It is now just "usable" and annoying. I will saddly admit that the windoes version of Director MX is much more usable than the mac version. Whomever ported it, just doesn't get it. What really sucks is that this crappy ass port is what I have to use every day. Yeah. Woo. shoot me.
3) I used to contract for McGraw Hill in Carlsbad. We took a major project that was about to fail, developed and released the 4 CD set on time and budget for McGraw-Hill. After I left, under financial pressure, one of my co workers told me that things were about to change. This biz guy from a software firm in India come in to talk to the biz guys at McGraw-Hill and states "my programmers can write 1000 lines of code in a hour and they are pennies on the dollar." WHAT MORON measures productivity in "lines of code per hour?" Obviously, the business guys who don't understand programming. Last I hard, a lot of Glencoe/McGraw-Hill's development moved offshore to India.
Leaves alot to think about.
- Zav - Imagine a Beowulf cluster of insensitive clods...
And this from the "superior society" that the Liberal Arts students/faculty were constantly droaning about?
Let me get this straight: I can not expect Indians to hire anybody from the USA because I need to be tolerant of their society, but I must hire anybody other than an American to be inclusive?
Yea, still makes no sense.
BTW, obviously not a direct response to your post, just staying on topic and adding a new point with historical context.
Eve Fairbanks says I drive a hybrid!LOL
It's not like I'm shocked that there's now a heated debate about Indian labor law among the various IANAIndianLaborLs here -- that's why we're here, right? -- but you may want to wait for someone in possession of even a single real fact to come along before drawing a conclusion.
What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
"In WTO-world, corporations can move their jobs across borders but workers cannot follow. This one-sidedness pushes salaries down everywhere, as companies seek the cheapest available labor."
What'll be the end of this, though? Eventually there'll be enough stabilization over the globe that it won't matter as much. I don't think that it'll happen in my lifetime, so it won't help me any, but as the world grows closer, I could envision this happening. Some countries with less free market play than here will have an advantage, for a while, but ultimately I think that it'll even out.
The other trouble is that we're seeing paradigm shifts that people aren't ready for. Remember what happened to the Swiss watch and clock makers once Japanese engineers perfected the use of quartz for accurate timekeeping? Their entire industry disappeared in a matter of months. In this case, if programmers as a whole are overpaid or are charging too much for their work as others perceive it, then the others are going to find a solution that doesn't involve the programmers. It's happened in other industries before, it'll happen again, I'm sure.
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
This situation did not come about until the institution of the H1-B and L-1 visa program. This program should be scrapped for the following reasons. 1.) Labor Shortage: The stated purpose of these programs was to fill a temporary shortage of american tech talent obviously this is no longer a shortage of American geeks to fill these jobs. 2.) Anti-Competitive: The way the H-1/L-1 visas are written the sponsored geek is can only be employed by the sponsoring corporation. If he/she is forbidden by law seek other employment employers do not have to compete for talented labor or worry about retention once these guys have been trained. This creates a type of indentured servitude and an artificially depreciated labor market. 3.) Lack Of Parity: There are no similar programs in the countries who are the major sources of imported labor. We should not open American labor markets while foriegn labor markets are protected. 4.) Tax Drain: The maximum time an H1/L1 visa holder can work in the US is 6 years. They have been assured by the Bush administration that they will still recieve Social Security benefits even though the current law says you must contribute for 10 years to be eligible.
Actually from a little googling it looks like the rules says that "etry visas" or visas for a general long term entry is decided on a case by case basis. Also no work permits are required. Look at this link and scroll down to the "work permits" part.
Seems like they have reasonable migration policies.Moreover no restriction on Natural/Naturalised citizens in politics either. An former Italian is the opposition leader
.ACMD setaloiv siht gnidaeR
Of course we don't let them work here. We let them come here to go to school, then we send them back and they take our jobs there because why pay a lot of money for software when you can get it dirt cheap from India?
Now is a real bad time to be a programmer... especially a newly graduated one. Of course pointy-haired bosses don't see the value of in-house development. If they can save money now, they look good. It doesn't matter that the software they get doesn't work right and they have to spend more money to fix it, they saved the company money.
There are also security concerns... but I won't go there.
Who cares about the last part of the clip, everyone knows that it's a pain in the ass to get a job in another country, unless your an executive or you live in the EU. (My personal experience alone with this is endless.)
The point is the first part. And I don't want to collectively diss the /. population, but if you guys would read BusinessWeek, The Economist, etc., in addition to all your damn computer magazines, then you'd be enlightened already about how the H1 visa problem is growing so fast in the States.
There are countless stories at countless firms about people who've been forced to train their outsourced replacements. It is a really big problem in this country.
I really don't give a f*ck if you want to outsource a job to India. But all that bullsh*t with Tata is a gross exploitation of a labor-law loophole. Generally, the law states that you can't lay someone off and replace that exact position within "X" amount of time (it varies by State, I believe, here in Illinois it's 1 year). So companies get around it by creating whole new departments and positions for companies like Tata to come in and rape your office space, replacing you with an H1-er.
Start reading other magazines, and you guys might actually be motivated to care about this instead of giving supposedly righteous comments about how obvious it is that it's difficult to obtain work visas in other countries.
Focus on the important stuff. Like the BEGINNING of the clip.
"All techies should be forced to take at least 12 credits of business in college."
-SD
The philosophy of market fundamentalism--the mantra of Fox, Wired, Rush, Gilder, Friedman and every zealous conservative and libertarian pundit--is doing an excellent job of encouraging business to turn its back on US employees. We'll see much, much more job flight in the short term until the brakes are applied to this savage anti-social approach.
Plainly this is what happens when you shatter the social contract and replace it with an ideology of dog-eat-dog. When times are good, it's nice to be able to bark, "Hands off my bone!" Not so nice, is it, when times are bad... Then, living under dog ideology isn't all it's cracked up to be, and you may come to see that millions and millions of your fellow Americans have been given the same raw deal.
For America, reeling under the destructiveness of this philosophy, a reordering of priorities is necessary. Increasing shareholder wealth may be the highest goal of a company; but it should never be the highest goal of a nation.
Above all, as you see jobs go to India, or elsewhere, and worry that it might be yours next, remember whose advice and guidance led you to this low hour. Remember also who made historically high profits from your labor in the 1990s, but now pleads the inability to continue your employment. And ask yourself if you can afford to subscribe to the politics of plutocrats who don't care if you and your family sink or swim.
I don't buy it, and I'm glad you haven't been modded up. What you're failing to realize is that the immigrants from India (and loads of other countries) end up becoming Americans when they live and work here, and end up contributing productively to the economy.
I get the feeling that when you say "Americans" you mean "Americans I'm comfortable with," which means "people who don't speak with accents and who have a similar skin color-" because if not I fail entirely to see the reason behind your statement. Our country is composed of immigrants and descendents of immigrants- hell, even the Native Americans are immigrants, if you trace it back far enough. You, yourself are the descendent of immigrants. So why spread FUD about people with roots analogous to your own?
I just noticed the time/date stamp (I'm usually oblivious to dates), and it occurred to me that this is a very topical discussion to have today. Many of the people who died in the World Trade Center two years ago today were immigrants to the United States or here under work visas. Many of the firefighters and policemen who died were immigrants or the sons and daughters of immigrants. The immigrants "took American jobs"- and yet many became citizens or were in the process of becoming citizens, thus becoming Americans themselves. The point I'm making is that immigration- even in massive waves- has always been and will always be an important facet of the economic and cultural life of the United States, as has anti-immigrant bigotry, intolerance, and xenophobia. I invite you to reflect on this.
Any government that is more concerned about their citizen's well-being than about corporation's well-being will block non-citizens from working.
;)
Any government that is more concerned about corporation's well-being than about their citizen's well-being will allow companies to hire non-citizens to their heart's content.
I think that's pretty cut and dried. I am certain someone will correct me shortly.
The number of 'native' people here is confined to mostly people who have property right to an 'indian' reservation. The rest of us are either from somewhere else or of people decended from somewhere else within the last 200 years. There are very few people who can claim their only lineage from the original east coast Pre-US colonies. Immigrants have brought business ideas, culture, and intelligence. A vast array of our scientists that have developed military materiel are immigrants. We tolerate them, right?
Even in our economic downturn, we still have a rather small unemployment rate. Our economy has always been cyclical, and now is no different than any other time, other than the industries most strongly affected. On an upswing companies hire as many people as they can, if they have a need for them, and they trim back when they have spent in excess of what their workforce can deliver, based on economic times. This is normal. It sucks, but as long as we allow the severe swings that we see, it'll remain this way.
When someone lives here, (s)he buys goods and services locally. This is money that isn't leaked out to foreign companies. Even the immigrant that sends money home for family ends up spending a lot here, since the cost of living is so high. I'd want to see raw figures collected by someone without a bias one way or the other before I would revise that thought.
Not all immigrants remain, but many do. Many find a much better life here than they have in other parts of the world. They see the salaries of their peers, and ultimately want that salary, or more of that lifestyle. They get addicted to pay-per-view and pizza delivery and cheap transportation. They become part of 'us'. I won't say that they all do, for many who come from countries as economically comparable per capita as the U.S. don't assimilate, but they have no reason to, either. Those from poorer countries become Americans. Their original culture doesn't disappear, but it all gets thrown in.
It's not nearly as clear of an issue as people make it out to be.
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
So, I was in History 106 today, and my professor says to us, "One of the primary characterizations of the industrial revolution was a period of rapid change." Rapid change, sort of like how you buy a video card, and a month later it's obsolete, and two months later it's a paperweight.
Reading this article has got me thinking, though.
One of the other characterizations of the industrial revolution was cheap labor- the massive influx of immigrants into the U.S., who proceeded to work for dirt and drive "Americans" out of jobs. If you recall, it only made everybody's - except the wealthy, of course - living conditions worse. This is not a good thing. Being only a mere computer scientist, I hesitate to speculate on what far-reaching sociological effects this will have, but at the very least, in the near future, this is not a good thing.
Last time this happened, we unionized, but I don't think that will work this time. I wish I had a solution (since in three years when I graduate I probably won't have a job), but I can't see one.
And, for the record, I wasted three mod points to post this.
In this age's global economy, the reality is that the US economic model is growing beyond the US's borders. Multi-national corportations are shopping around for the best deal. Particularly when the US economy is struggling, many of these companies will define 'best' deal as the cheapest. Other posters have pointed out that you get what you pay for. Maybe eventually the companies that outsource will realize that their savings on paper are costing them more than they realize.
In the meantime, technical folks that lived large during the boom times have to realize that people offshore have also realized there's money to be made in technology. Their price is lower, so the jobs go offshore. Those of us here in the US have to either lower our prices or convince employers that we provide more value than the cheaper offshore workers.
In other news, blue-collar workers have been arguing for years that we need to close our borders to foreign products, or tarrif the hell out of them. Now, suddenly, white collar jobs are being lost as well & people are shouting "Close the borders!" "Get rid of the H1-B's!" "Save MY job!"
Sorry, dude. Thats the way it works. Change careers. Develop new skills. Start your own business that hires only 3+ generation Americans. But if you choose to drive a foreign car, or watch an off-shore made television, or insert example here of products built outside the US that were/are more expensive when built here, you're living a double-standard. It can't work both ways. Pick your economic system: protectionism or a free market.
What's more lets shine a light on the crux of the matter. Economic downturns always bring heightened nationalism, immigrant bashing, and typically self-destructive policies on trade and immigration. Given the current political climate and the significance of today's date only heightens that sense of national pride. This, in my opinion, is a dangerous position to be in. This is the kind of climate that breeds "Brown Shirts".
I think the important distinction that must be drawn is the fundamental difference between H1B type workers and immigrants. In my opinion, an immigrant is someone actively pursuing citizenship and should be considered an "American". As the descendant of Scots, Irish, and French Canadians I've heard the stories of persecution and discrimination my great grandparents underwent during the Great Depression because they were "stealing" jobs from "real" Americans.
In my opinion, the hiring policy, this man ran in to is just plain wrong regardless of legality. Does this mean that the US should adopt a similar policy? I don't think so, I believe the outcome would not impart a favorable change on the state of the economy. If my company lost all its H1B's we would be in serious trouble. I'm pretty confident we could not fill the vacant jobs with "real" americans, even in today's job market. Of course, I could be wrong.
"The words of the prophets are written on the Slashdot walls."
Like, duh, you've never heard of the internet? Prohibitively expensive? Let's see: set up a website with jobs about to be given to foreigners; wait 30 days for applications; no aplications?; you can bring someone in; otherwise, forget it Mr. CEO Bossman.
This argument would fall under the rubrick of tissue of lies if were even that substantial.
My great grandfather moved halfway around the world to sell fruit off of a wagon in Sioux City, Iowa. Don't give me this sob story about moving your entire family.
Hic iacet Arthurus, rex quondam rexque futurus.
I'm swimming in an ocean filled, not with water, but with irony.
The US has enjoyed the benefits of globalization for decades now. Look at all the goods at your disposal, right now. Look at the computer, the mouse, the car, the food. Realize how much of it is affordable to you because they exported the labor, to a place that could make your underwear with labor that cost $1 a day.
Now, imagine all the prices of all those goods increasing as every individual on the production and supply chain, all the way back to the origin, gets paid in US-standard wages that allows each and every worker to buy a US-sized house on a US-sized tract of land for a small nuclear family, with 2 recent-make cars for the family, health care, home entertainment systems, etc. Are you willing to pay $20 for a pair of socks to make that happen? $50,000 for an entry-level car?
I'm all for wage convergance, labor and environmental riders on trade agreements - although that will also end up making your goods more expensive. But to think that the US has suffered under globalism is completley misguided.
Also, the H1B visas were granted because of something that most IT professionals, particularly the libertarianish ones, just don't understand: class conflict. IT was very expensive blue-collar labor. The US economy is managerial capitalism, and it is in their class interests to push down the cost of that labor.
Most IT types mistook their good wages for a sign of inclusion in the "wealth-generating," upper-classes. In fact, it was an artifact of a labor scarcity that has been engineered away. Now, the IT rabble has to take its place in front of the punch-clock like all the other line-workers.
True free trade allows:
The European Union has all three. It is a true "free trade" system.
Most others, including NAFTA (North American Free Trade Agreement), do not allow free movement of labor. NAFTA permits "brain drain" labor movement to occur fairly easily ("temporary" work visas are easy to obtain for skilled/educated workers), but unskilled labor cannot cross borders.
NAFTA and its ilk are not free trade agreements. They are better described as trans-national outsourcing agreements.
Reading Slashdot is ruining my spelling and grammar.
First of all, you don't seem to know what globalism is. Globalism means i can buy a Coke and catch the latest Hollywood movies almost anywhere on the planet. You're right that it's one sided, it's hard to find foreign films and products, even if they're popular overseas, in the U.S.
Second of all, you're wrong that only the U.S. has a large migrant worker population. France, Germany, England, even Ireland since their economy picked up, all have them.
The key here isn't "U.S. vs. the World", it's Wealthy vs. Non-wealthy nations. In which case it only makes sense for things to be one sided. India wouldn't tolerate a flood of "non-immigrant labor" because their economy couldn't support it. On top of that, most Americans wouldn't be interested in doing more work for lower pay 10,000 miles away from their loved ones.
Not that it never happens. A friend of mine recently quit a comfortable job at Deutsche Bank to work for a non-profit micro-finance company in Nigeria. She didn't do it for the money, she did it because she wants to help people.
Like others have pointed out, foreigners are typically only hired for skilled labor if the employer is unable to find someone with the necessary skillset in the local population. If India isn't hiring non-Indians for computer programming work, it's because they have more programmers than they have jobs. If you really want to work in India (which i doubt), find out what they need.
I used to work at a major network hardware company. They had outsorced a large chunk of QA work to some contractors in India -- some script-writing, some regression tests, and other sundry tasks. Without necessarily making any broad generalizations about Indian contractors or foreign contracting in general, let me share my experiences and impressions with you, in the hopes that you won't make the same mistake that my company made.
1. Time zone: I was on the East Coast (EST/EDT). I beleive that India was about 12 hours away from us, give or take. This meant that basically anything you asked them to do took at least 1 full working day, since by the time I got into work, they were in bed. You can just imagine the problems this caused when deadlines or other time-critical matters were involved.
2. Language: Again, without making any broad generalizations... Their English sucked. It was nearly impossible to communicate with them on the phone and their written English was less than acceptible. Also, based on serveral very frustrating experiences with the whole group, I concluded that their comprehention of written English was equally poor. We finally found a guy there who could understand English well enough to explain things to the rest of the group, but even then, my confidence level was quite low.
3. Work Ethic/Product: Both the group in question and several other Indians I've worked with since then have had some similar issues w/r/t how they worked and what they produced. Again, not to generalize... If you give them very clear, step-by-step instructions to perform a discrete task, they generally will perform the task quite thoroughly. However, if the procedure requires any deviation from the norm or any creativity or synthesis, you're better off doing it yourself, because they'll never figure it out.
We also had problems getting them to listen to anyone other than management -- they basically ignored team lead's, including myself.
In their defense, I understand that the education system in India teaches them to work this way; it has a large focus on rote memorization and obeyance of authority. That's great, and it seems to work for them. However, that's not how we work in the US, and folks who have gone to US (or European or Chinese) schools and worked with others of the similar ilk will get very frustrated trying to mesh with thinking processes that are polar opposites of their own. Furthermore, I find this thinking process thoroughly unproductive and pretty much useless in an Engineer.
Now, I'm just waiting for someone to write back flaming me for being some kind of racist, so let me state once more that I am relating my personal experiences with certain Indians. I went to grad school with several amazingly talented Indians whom I would choose to work with in a heartbeat. I'm not trying to reinforce any sterotypes or discriminatory policies.
What I am trying to say is caveat emptor. If a thing seems too good to be true, it probably is. Sure, you can get engineering labor abroad for 10 cents on the dollar. But in many cases, you get what you pay for.
And finally, there are countless qualified engineers in AMERICA who need jobs. If a foreign individual or group has skills you can't find here, then fine, bring them here. But in the long run, you hurting yourself, your company, and your fellow Americans by trying to save a buck abroad. It ain't worth it.
As someone who only speaks one language (called "an American") I find it an easy mistake to judge someone's intelligence by how well they speak English. It sounds like the author(s) of the stuff on this webpage are making the same mistake too. But as a physicist, I work with a lot of other people with Ph.D's for whom English is a second (or 3rd, 4th, or 5th) language, so my mistaken prejudices are gradually wearing off.
For one example, I think that most foreign physicists I work with have better written grammar than the average US physicist, as more often than not these folks write the best papers. And on the other hand, I knew another fellow student who had great trouble speaking and writing English (and programming languages for that matter) in spite of several years of learning and speaking in the US, but who was an absolutely brilliant mathematician and theoretical physicist.
So, a person's English-speaking skills are not a good measure of how well they communicate. And communication is just one dimension of intelligence, which itself is a massively multidimensional thing. IMHO intelligence is impossible to quantify in any meaningful way.