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Are You On Time To Work?
gravitie asks: "I'm a developer in my local area. I'm on what is supposed to be 'flex time', so I can work the hours that my boss and I see fit for me to fullfil the number of hours I'm required to get a week. Besides this I must clock in at 7:30 AM every day I am at work. If I clock in at 7:31 I am late, no questions asked. If I am late 3 times in one quarter I get a verbal warning. Next time I get a written warning, then it just goes down hill from there (docked pay, etc..). Is this standard in todays business world? Should 1 minute late really be considered 'late'?"
If you have flex hours, why do you have to clock in at 7:30 AM?
Are you late even at 7:31? One minute past? YES! Your employers set up the rules, as a good employee you should respect an abide by those rules. To be honest, it should never be an issue. You should make an effort to arrive at 7:00. That will give you plenty of time to deal with any unforeseen traffic conditions in your drive in to work, issues with weather, car problems, breakfast, etc. As well, if you are consistently early for work, your employers will take note, and will be impressed by your attitude and willingness to get started with your work! Those are the kinds of things which give you good reviews and get you better raises and help with promotions. You should never be late. You should strive to make sure that it will never be an issue.
I haven't lost my mind!
It is backed up on disk...somewhere...
How does treating creative workers like assembly line factory workers improve the company's bottom line?
How does having your biggest asset -- your employees -- breaking out in a sweat for being a minute late (and probably spending half the day worrying how many more late days they have in their "quota" before being punished), make the company more competitive?
How does explaining that your company has more petty rules than the local McDonald's franchise attract the best and brightest employees?
Don't get me wrong: some coordination is necessary, so that employees can confer with their fellow employees. But a goodly number of people aren't at their best at 7:30 (I sure as hell am not), and won't do their best work if some Pointy Haired Boss greets them each morning with a stop-watch in hand. This creates resentment, not loyalty.
Times are bad in IT right now. If the past is any guide, at some point in the not too distant future, times will be good again, and employees will be more scarce. And employees (and potential employees) will remember how the company treated people in these lean times.
I expect the poster's company will have a terrible time attracting talent at that point -- if they haven't already gone under by then, because only the most desperate and talentless of their employees won't have found jobs at a place that doesn't treat knowledge workers like unskilled factory workers.
Opinions on the Twiddler2 hand-held keyboard?
Most places I've seen flex time requires core hours (typically something like 10am-4pm). Most places I know don't care though, as long as you put your hours in. Quibling over precise times when someon'e putting in more than their contracted hours does not lead to a motivated workforce.
You ask:
Should 1 minute late really be considered 'late'?"
Let's rephrase it:
Should 1 minute early really be considered 'early'?"
Being on time is easy. Your boss knows that it is easy, so when you are late, it is a great big "fuck you" to his desires. Of course, occasional tardiness is understandable, and even sometimes unavoidable, but that you can't drag your ass out of bed or leave the house five minutes earlier is not your bosses problem.
After all, the only important difference between an adult and a child is that an adult does what he/she is supposed to do (i.e, meets his or her responsibilities), even when they are tired, hung-over, etc., otherwise you are still a little boy or girl, and of no use to most employers.
I'm not ragging on you, I'm just stating the facts as I know from experience a large number of employers see them.
Neopets - the best free game on the Int
You got to set the limit somewhere. If people know they're supposed to be there by 7.30 but "late" isn't really until 7.40, it will mostly mean people get there 7.41. I wonder how one calls this "flex time" though. I usually arrive between 8.00 and 9.30. No questions asked.
"Seems that with the job market the way it is, employers are finding they can get away with squeezing more and more time out of their employees; They know we've got nowhere to go and, more importantly, that they'll have no problems finding qualified replacements should a few of us happen to walk out anyway."
Along with the man hour as a measure of the amount of work that can be done, finicky rules like that tend to reduce the amount of goodwill on both sides of the employer/employee fence, and a happy employee is a productive employee.
Case in point; I have standard salaried hours, but I get a phone call early Saturday about an issue. I've got no problem driving 20 miles to fix it, that's my professionalism. Not penalising someone for being a minute late should be their professionalism, particularly in the case of fostering goodwill to the extent of 'out of hours' problems to avoid situations where someone says, 'Gee, it'll have to wait until Monday morning.'
Someone else in the thread mentioned the difference between adults and children being that adults need to get things done. Adults also work together, cooperate and should be working towards a common goal rather than simply applying hard and fast rules to human behaviour.
If you're seeing hard and fast rules, look around for another job fast...they're usually indicative that there are problems and they don't mind employee turnover. Companies should be loyal to their employees as much as the employees are loyal to the company.
Oddly Draconis
Too cynical to live, too stubborn to die.
"A wizard is never late, Frodo Baggins. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to." -- Gandalf
---
Heavily armed, easily bored and off my medication.
I expect the poster's company will have a terrible time attracting talent at that point -- if they haven't already gone under by then, because only the most desperate and talentless of their employees won't have found jobs at a place that doesn't treat knowledge workers like unskilled factory workers.
While in general I agree with everything you've said, I'd caution you to be just a little more temperate in your choice of language. Factory workers must be punctual because the assembly line can't move unless everyone is present at their posts, not because they may or may not lack some particular set of skills or aptitudes that a different worker or type of worker might or might not possess.
Time was that Americans understood they were to treat all their fellow citizens equally. Granted, if you're a typical /.er, your childhood and adolescence were inundated with the propaganda of class warfare and class hatred, and that's about the only kind of political discourse you've ever heard, but it was not always so, and, for what it's worth, there are plenty of us out here in fly-over country who pay reverence to the old ways.
We just picked this up, too. Each "late" is an "occurance," which add up to verbal warnings, written warnings and dismissal at 7 occurances.
I think it's just that companies are trying like mad to shift the base definition of work, given that ecomomic circumstances keep most of us as a captive audience. When the economy picks up and we all start to bail, they can "negotiate" a more relaxed environment again, which won't do more than return to the status quo of a couple of years ago. I agree that it seems short-sighted to treat your employees like children... any of your employees.
That said, I'd also add that my group is extremely lucky that our managers stood up to say "we work on infrastructure, so we can't work 8 to 5 like everyone else." They could have just as easily said "a 40-hour week? my people will be thrilled! no more late nights and long weekends!" Other departments weren't happy with that ("why does I.S. think they're special?"), but they don't have to show on several weekends a year for routine maintenance and system outages.
Amateurs discuss tactics. Professionals discuss logistics.
In twenty years of working I've had one job like that. I lasted six months, and have never been happier to quit a job. Want to punch a clock? Get a real blue-collar job that pays real overtime.
Hell, even when I was in the Navy, nobody bitched about a minute or two here or there, as long as it didn't become a habit. Except for that one job I mentioned before, I've worked for places where as long as I was productive, the time didn't really matter. Most have had expectations that I would work a "normal" day, but the only times I was expected to hit perfectly were meetings with others, expecially customers.
I've also worked shiftwork where I was actually relieving someone, as part of a team. Even there, as long as you were prepared to assume the watch on time, it didn't matter if you were there an hour before or 5 minutes before.
Go Find Another Job
Yes, they're not easy to come by, but the long-term effects of working at a job like yours SUCK!
I worked in aerospace for a long time, and you have to fill out timecards (not punch-in/out, just record the daily total). Even that Sucks. When I went to work as a lead at a very small company, the first thing we did was get rid of timecards, unless we were billing the customer by the hour. And even then, you didn't have to account for every hour of every day.
But remember the flip side
In really god jobs like that, you won't need to take time off to head home early because of a sick kid. But you won't get paid for working Sunday because a big project is due. Overall, I like that trade. If you want to only work your 8 and go home come hell or high water, you've already got a clock-puncher mentality.
Do you want to truly be treated like a professional? Then demand it, and act like it. If the current job won't give it to you, move on!
I can work the hours that my boss and I see fit for me to fullfil the number of hours I'm required to get a week. Besides this I must clock in at 7:30 AM every day I am at work.
That doesn't sound like flex time to me, in fact, your two statements sound contradictory. You can work the hours you see fit, but you have to clock in at 7:30?
Problem is, that doesn't really matter. The terms of your position say you must clock in at 7:30 AM, so that's what you need to do, regardless of whether or not anyone else believes it's flex-time or not.
I work for a medium sized corporation as a sys-admin. I'm normally around during core hours -- 9 AM to 4 PM -- but depending upon what I've had to do the previous weekend or the previous night, I may come in late or leave early. Or take the day off. Management knows that I work weekends on occasion, so they understand that I may take time off during the week.
My real point is that you have to follow the rules of where you work. If the rules say clock in at 7:30 AM, you've got to do it. About the only thing you can do now is try to renegociate the rules. It sounds like you and your manager have a reasonable agreement and that you're being held to rules meant for people lower down the foodchain. You might be able to talk management into relaxing the 7:30 AM clock in rules if you can show that your work doesn't fit those rules.
On the other hand, if you actually have to clock in, then the odds aren't good that they'll relax the rules for you.
Sean.
I'm sure this doesn't apply to you, but sometimes they try to use some nit-picking thing like this to get rid of someone they don't want for other reasons...
computerlady - a brand new Slash-daughter - alone, but no longer invisible, in the
I agree completely. My sister was detailing a similar situation where she works (she's a biologist). People were coming in 5-10 minutes late, and it pissed off management.
At the time, the workplace was very motivated, and people worked all kids of unpaid overtime, with no prompting from management.
However, when management went on a rant, everyone started coming in at 8:00 am, but stopped working atexactly 5:00.
It seems that their focus on "minutes" cost them hours in free labor, and caused some bad feelings.
On another note, I've supervised people before, and dealt with this problem. The trick is not to be a slimy PHB. If you've got somebody that's always running late, tell them to come in on time and don't act like a weasel! It really does work
I can tell ya, I truly feel for the poster of this article.
.. so I can arrive at work at 8:00 am.)
A year ago or so ago I was working for an employer whom... well.. I really had some problems with.
Before I start, please note.. I was working salery...
It was typical for me to give large amounts of overtime for this company. (did I say give.. I mean it was EXPECTED of me)
A lot of times, I ended up LEAVING the building, around 11 pm... yah.. close to midnight...
There where also a couple times where I ended up staying even past then... one time my boss tells me "Umm, I have to have this done by tomarrow morning before my flight out to taiwan" me asking "Why didn't you tell me about this sooner?", boss tells me, "I just remembered it".
So I get to stay in the office until 4 in the morning making sure my boss has her shit together.
Lets not forget being sent to a customer site, expected to fix a problem our manufacturing department in taiwan made... and expected to stay there every day... for weeks if need be.. working 9-10 or so until its done. (If you dont do this, the company could go out of business they tell me)
anyways... you get the idea. So add ontop of that.. the fact that my boss was always on my case about being an hour or so late.
"You need to stop coming in late luke, we will have to dock your pay", to which I reply, "You need to stop expecting me to work 14 hours a day, or allow me to come in late."
Literally.. at the time.. I did not mind working the hours I did. The thing that bugged me was that they gave me shit if I came in any later than 8 am. (Look, if I go home at 11 pm.. and get HOME at 12:30 pm.. and get to bed around 1:30 pm... you cant expect me to be up at 5:30 am, and out of the house at 6:30 am
anyways, needless to say.. after TRYING to work things out with management and getting exactly nowhere.. I quit =)
On my way out the door to go to work... so I cant spell check or anything =) But anyways... thats my story.
Luke
I watch my coworkers get lazy with arriving on time and flaking off in general. Management was light on enforcing start times and people took advantage of it.
There is a fine line that management must walk. We have flex time but it is at the managers discretion. Those who have child care issues, etc. are allowed to work flex time in that they arrive a little late once in a while and stagger their shift to accommodate a working spouse and child care. Those employee's who start the day and close the day (multiple shifts) have no recourse but to start and end at the proper times. Those in the middle can come and go as long as it doesn't impact staffing needs.
I have witnessed extreme abuse. i.e. 20 minutes late on a daily basis. Excuse after excuse is given. The employee is warned verbally, then warned again and again. One guy receives a morning phone call from the manager each morning to get his ass in gear and on the highway! This employee has now been told that if he's late one more time in the next 3 months he will be written up and if it happens after that he will be docked from his vacation time. If it continues to happen he will be fired. This is a valuable employee but he's about to shoot himself in the foot.
Another bad employee has mastered the art of work avoidance and learned a disappearing act. His manager is in another state but his managers manager sits nearby. The upper manager made a comment the other day about whether or not this employee realizes that his manager reports to him. Even though we don't use time clocks, this upper manager has started a spreadsheet to account for this AWOL employee who shows up but takes long breaks and blames it on non-existent meetings. He now spys on the whereabouts of this employee on a daily basis. It's only a matter of time before the evidence mounts and he is terminated.
They don't want to fire this person, but if he can't show up on time then they will find someone who can. Jobs are scarce and they don't have to put up with slacker lateness.
Most managers are rather flexible if you've been working overtime (unpaid) and you are late because you worked till 2am the night before. Heck, most who experience that type of overtime simply take a free day off without question.
My employer is reasonable with regards to being late but it gets abused. Perhaps the Slashdot poster doesn't know the history of his department. Maybe the manager had to crack the whip and now has to enforce on time arrival because it was so heavily abused.
I arrive on time 99% of the time and I usually work late. Most of the time I am early due to traffic planning, etc. I get there about 15 minutes early every day. I don't get paid for the overtime but I do get recognition from management. I receive the highest bonus every time, I am instructed not to tell coworkers what I received because it's more then double what most received. I get a shift differential and excellent benefits. I am shocked every time I check my account balance. I drive a luxury car and have 10 computers at home. I can afford fancy travel and jewelry for the fiancee. I really cannot complain about being required to show up to work on time.
It's a matter of respect and honor. I am getting paid a heck of a lot of money and I have no problem with performing the minimum requirement of showing up on time.
Im normally a few minutes late, but i could fis that. However, if they start making me punch a clock, well then, no more working through lunch, no more staying after 5:00 to finish up, no more letting that extra 15 minutes of OT slide, no more cellphone on the weekends for emergencies. They want me to punch a clock? FIne. 40 hours, thats all they get. They keep making noises here about requiring authorization for OT. I would LOVE that. "SOrry sir, i know you printers not working yet, but im not allowed to work past 8 hours without written authorization, so ill have to pass this on to another tech, he should be here in less than 4 hours"
They want to clock me down to the second? Fantastic. THEY get clocked to the second also.
All Troll + "offtopic" mods are meta moderated as "Unfair", because you abused the system.
If you must be at work by 7:30 and you get in trouble for being even 1 minute late you are not on flex time. Perhaps what you really mean is that you're allowed to work overtime whenever you feel it's necessary, but that is not flex time. Flex time means that as long as you put in your time and the work gets done it doesn't matter what time you come in (although it might be strongly recommended that you get there before a certain time, which is generally around 9:30 in my experience.)
Based on my experience, no this is not standard in the tech industry. It IS standard for production lines. If your boss is trying to run developement like a production line he is either an idiot or an asshole, probably both, and you should be looking for a new job.
Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.
Are they trying to get rid of you? That's my first guess. The only time I've seen this first hand was when someone was looking for a reason. Are they trying to punish you for working flextime? This may be about something else.
Unless you being one minute late is having a direct and profound impact on coworkers or clients (and that's extrememly rare, military, cults etc.) I'd guess someone is after you.
It's a really bad sign, even if nobody is after you. A rule like that is an indication of a dangerous nitwit manager who will make worse decisions in the future. Those future bad decisions will not be "Free lunch in the breakroom on Tuesdays" but may include memos like "Omission of the cover sheet on TPS reports will result in docked wages (applies to hourly employees only.)" or "Mandatory lunchtime meeting in PHB's office, please bring vaseline."
Management is free to make whatever decisions they like within the law, but that doesn't make all their decisions right, or even sane. If the rest of management doesn't find a problem with this, you're in hell.
Mind you, I like to get to work early, but since my commute could vary from 45 minutes to over 2 hours, depending on the limits of human stupidity, I was occasionally late. Fortunately, my employers were more interested in the performance of duties which were:
In my job description
Actually provided value
If you can't find out what this is really about, and get the one minute rule ameliorated, then mind your P's & Q's while you look for other work.
Assembly is the reverse of disassembly.
You have hit it perfectly here.
As a small tangent, I would like to describe an excellent example from real life.
I haven't read any recent salary surveys, but... Someone I know, let's call him Jim, runs a small business (about 20-30 employees).
He needs 2 programmers on staff. He is forever complaining to me that he has the most crappy programmers, and that all programmers are lazy, self-centered sons of bitches.
Nice. Especially since I'm a programmer.
Well, I found out why he has such trouble. He hires a programmer. He expects them to be there by 8:00a, but that they are on time so long as they arrive within about 5 minutes of Jim getting there (random time, between 8:00 and 8:30 -- usually closer to 8:00. If Jim is really late, (9:00 or later) then the programmers had better be already hard at work when he arrives)
In addition, he starts to really harp on these guys any time they leave before 5:00 or if they leave before him more than a few times.
He takes the "the staff should be already working when the boss arrives, and still working when the boss leaves" mentality, but tries to be slightly flexible about it.
In addition, he pays his programmers $40K - $45K per year.
I talked to Jim about this several times, saying something to the effect that if you treat your programmers as if they are worthless, you will not attract the creme of the crop.
Besides, if a half-decent programmer with a degree can go anywhere and earn $55K - $70K (at the time -- early/mid 2000 these rates were very easy to come by) why would he work for you when you are both really aggravating AND are paying way way less.
His response? You programmers are so arrogant. Why should I pay you that much, you're not worth it. You're all lazy and incompetant.
So... he gets crappy programmers... and wonders why...
Even when you're on a salary, your hours can be billable to a customer.
Even when I'm a salaried professional, I don't have a problem with "clocking in" and/or keeping a timesheet. But saying that 9:01am is late, no questions asked, is just plain wrong unless there's a good reason for it (e.g. customer support contracts requiring the phone/email to be manned during certain hours). Even then, though, I'd want it negotiable.
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