Slashdot Mirror
U.S. Court Blocks Anti-Telemarketing List
DirkDaring writes "Yahoo is reporting that a U.S. court in Oklahoma has blocked the national 'do not call' list that would allow consumers to stop most unwanted telephone sales calls. With around 50 million phone numbers currently signed up this could get very messy."
From CNN
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Objects in Mirror are Losing!
http://www.the-dma.org/, they seem to be quite proud of themselves
This will get done. The court just has a problem with how the FTC did it. I bet if Congress passed a do not call list bill there would be no problem.
http://www.okwd.uscourts.gov/west.htm
from Fox News...
A nice quote from that article:
Gee, I guess that never occurred to them before this list was created. Now that it has occurred to them, any bets on if they'll actually respect those wishes?Judge Lee R. West
http://www.okwd.uscourts.gov/west.htm
You know what to do.
Two of the top businesses in the state are telemarketers:
f
http://www.state.ok.us/osfdocs/budget/table1.pd
At least Walmart has more employees.
I haven't had time to read it yet, but here it is: Order
--Kobayashi--
Oh, I should point out their phone numbers: President's Office -- 212.768.7277, ext. 1604 Privacy -- 212.768.7277, ext. 2408
A post on Techdirt has contact information for DMA (Direct Marketing Association).
This may be delayed, but it will happen. Assuming that it is really 50 million people, and not 50 million numbers (big difference, I myself registered 3 numbers), Washington politicians can not ignore that large of a group. 1/6 of the US population is large enough to push through legislation no matter now much money the DMA puts toward lobbying.
Children in the backseats don't cause accidents. Accidents in the back seats cause children.
405-609-5140
I spoke to a nice lady, told her the gist of my second paragraph above (redacting the personal comments) and that the judge had overstepped HIS authority. I warned her to expect a lot of calls.
She asked me for my name and phone number....
In other news, astrophysicists have announced that they now know what all that dark matter is: it's stupidity.
OK, here you go:
Chambers Page for The Honorable Lee R. West
Chambers Page for
The Honorable Lee R. West
Senior United States District Judge
Western District of Oklahoma
U.S. Courthouse
200 N.W. Fourth St. Oklahoma City, OK 73102
Rm 3001, Courtroom 303, Third Floor
Chambers Telephone: 405-609-5140
Chambers Facsimile: 405-609-5151
www.christopherlewis.com
Translation for those uninformed about how politics really work: He must have gotten paid really, REALLY well by the telemarketers.
District Judges aren't really political creatures. Once they're appointed, they're there for life, and their ONLY politicking is jockying for a seat on the Apellate Circuit or the Supreme Court.
For the uninformed about how the courts work: the Telemarketers got a very good lawyer, and got lucky.
Except the Supreme Court has already held that commercial speech doesn't have the same protection as individual speech. The question is probably going to end back up in the Supreme Court as it's not clear how much latitiude Congress has in a case like this.
As annoying as telemarketing calls are, they do serve a function. Just because 50 million people believe that they shouldn't have to be bothered saying "I'm not interested." doesn't necessarily mean Congress can shut the industry down. Clearly, somebody is interested otherwise the calls wouldn't keep coming.
the law violates the 1st amendment because it does not ban all telemarketing calls. It exempts them for certain reasons. Courts( SCOTUS) have ruled this to be "prior restraint" or in laymens terms deciding what I can say before it is said, rather than after. And that is a no no acording the the constitution.
The only way to bust a doper--is when you yourself become a smoker!
They argue that the number of sales they get, even to people who assume they don't like telemarketing, shows the value of what they offer. In other words, they say that people don't realize that they don't really mind telemarketing all that much.
I'm not sure how I feel about that call machine they use, that puts in a delay before talking to a real person; on the one hand I'm dismayed at the increase in effeciency, on the other hand I'm greatful that I can so often sneak a hangup into there...
SO YOU'RE GOING TO DIE: The Comic for Dealing with Death
- "The DMA is a membership organization." Interesting fact.
- "We are here to help you." Good, because I need help right now- my blood pressure is up after reading this article.
- "You can reach us by mail, phone, fax or e-mail at the following addresses:"
And then follows a list of over 30 contacts. I wonder who could help... "Consumer assistance"? No, I never consume their products (although they try to force feed everyone) so that isn't me. Privacy? That probably goes to an overfilled voicemail. How about "Direct Marketing Educational Foundation"? That could work- I certainly think that Direct Marketing needs more education.Actually I believe war-dialers like that ARE in fact illegal regardles of DNC lists
RelevantElephants: A Somatic WebComic...
How can FIFTY FREAKIN' MILLION votes for this thing be wrong?
Especially when a mere 50,996,116 votes elected Al Gore president in 2000.
I guess the courts don't always care about numbers.
Some people have a way with words, and some people, um, thingy.
Feel free to give them a buzz and let them know how you feel about their minions calling you all the f---ing time!! Or better yet send a lengthy e-mail.
American Teleservices Association
1666 K Street, NW, Suite 1200
Washington, DC 20006
Toll Free: (877) 779-3974
info@ataconnect.org
Unforunately, there is a minor flaw in your logic.
Telemarketers often* sell products to individuals who have a very, very poor image of telemarketers, and are firmly resolved not to buy anything.
Maybe not you and me, but 90% of America. You have to understand, they have a very, very, very low positive response rate, but an extremely high call volume. I worked in a survey firm, and our response rate was something abysmal---like 1 in 60. Focus groups were notably better, but my friends who worked across the street at MCI or Access Direct got maybe a 1 in 200 response rate.
Didn't matter. Those autodialers are quick.
You see, part of the 'training' they give you is how to push products on to unsuspected clients. "Tell us how much your phone service costs". Or even worse (this one really pisses me off), "Give us your address and billing information so we can reduce your long distance rates". Or another terrible one: "We need your billing information to update your credit protection service".
Pressure, Pressure, Pressure, and all of a sudden, the poor sap on the other end of the line is tired of saying no, and they just purchase the thing that marketer is trying to sell, just so they don't have to be rude.
I thought it was bad at my research firm. I couldn't believe that crap that went down at MCI, comissions included.
I used to fall prey to this kind of crap before. I remember a set of ten magazine prescriptions, which were supposedly only $10 a month, which actually became $40 a month (because I was being charged in advance), and of which 6 of the magazines never came through.
Evil, blooding sucking, pus-filled bastards.
The only way to deal with these people is to tell them to shut the fuck up, stop calling your number, and find a real job.
I felt bad doing survey research on blood glucose measuring devices, and video game focus groups. The telemarketers out there have made a concious decision to get a higher paying, commission based job, fleecing people out of their money.
You don't have to be nice to them. In fact, they probably say really horrible things about you to their coworkers after they get off the phone with you.
But as long as 1 out of 200 American's do not have the backbone to stand up to them it will make sense for them keep racking up the calls---even out of a database such as the do not call list.
WhiteWolf666 an exBush supporter. All you new-school,compassionate,save the children Republicans can rot in hell
That's either going to be overturned on appeal, or the FCC and FTC will work out some organizational way to deal with it.
Even with the judge's ruling, the do-not-call registry should still apply to businesses directly regulated by the FCC, such as telephone companies.
I knew somebody who worked at a telemarketing firm. At each pay period, if they were under 20 sales, they were fired.
ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI
he'd have chucked his invention in the trash and announced voice over wire, if not impossible, something not desirable. "I had this vision - once the 'telephone', as I call it, had been installed in households everywhere, becoming an essential instrument, suddenly every quack medicine peddlar would begin abusing it. Mark Twain was right, I should not have invented it".
try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
Odds are, as a judge, his home number would be unlisted. There are many professions where you will come into contact with people who you DON'T want to know your phone number and home address. Police officers, school teachers, psychiatrists, and so on.
ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI
It's unrestricted if you have the $7200 per year required to download it.
It is *not* a free download, something that has gotten little publicity. It's only free to charities and pollsters and the like. Companies are required to purchase it, at a cost of $25 per area code, up to a maximum of around $7300.
While I'm a fan of the idea, I was surprised to learn about the costs involved. I love the idea of a do not call list, but using it as a way to tax telemarking calls just seems a bit shady.
LEILA JEANNE HILL, AUDREY HIMMELMANN, and EVERITT W. SIMPSON, Jr., PETITIONERS v. COLORADO et al.
1 3699&c=86.
[June 28, 2000]
Majority opinion, delivered by Justice Stevens:
>> The unwilling listener's interest in avoiding unwanted communication has been repeatedly identified in our cases. It is an aspect of the broader "right to be let alone" that one of our wisest Justices characterized as "the most comprehensive of rights and the right most valued by civilized men." Olmstead v. United States, 277 U. S. 438, 478 (1928) (Brandeis, J., dissenting).24 The right to avoid unwelcome speech has special force in the privacy of the home, Rowan v. Post Office Dept., 397 U. S. 728, 738 (1970), and its immediate surroundings, Frisby v. Schultz, 487 U. S., at 485, but can also be protected in confrontational settings.
That covers all the cases above except for number 5. In that case, assuming the WTO officials include US political leaders, I believe that the right to express one's views to one's political leaders may prevail. See http://www.aclu.org/FreeSpeech/FreeSpeech.cfm?ID=
IANAL, but I can use google and quote things.
It doesn't hurt to be nice.
this is absolutely too much fun they have a recorded message now
wanted: one clever sig,apply within
It's the Oklahoma protectionism. We have a large amount of of call-centers here. This law would adversly affect our economy. Therefor they are going to try and block it.
It's actually cheap to live here. I'm in Tulsa, and a $12/hr job can get you a decent apartment, car, etc. Of course this whole thing is going to collapse with the outsourcing to India...
And yes, many Tulsans take things way too seriously. It's because we have nothing else to do!
Maybe we DID take the blue pill. You wouldn't remember anyway.
Contact your senators and representatives, at the very least by email, instead of harassing the judge who made the decision (no matter what your opinion of him). The directories are here:
House of Representatives
Senate
IIRC, and I very well could be wrong, they use predictive AUTO-dialers that call selected numbers from a database, not sequentially.
"Lawyers are for sucks."
- Doug McKenzie
Call the asshole judge and ask him where the U.S Constitution guarantees an audience for free speech...
.pdf
The Honorable Lee R. West
Senior United States District Judge
Western District of Oklahoma
U.S. Courthouse
200 N.W. Fourth St. Oklahoma City, OK 73102
Rm 3001, Courtroom 303, Third Floor
Chambers Telephone: 405-609-5140
Chambers Facsimile: 405-609-5151
clickity here and slashdot his website too... don't forget to download his
SIT tones are the three quick tones you typically hear before the telephone company's recording: "The number you called is no longer in service".
Private Citizen has a free download of SIT tones available on the Private Citizen website:
http://www.privatecitizen.com/sit-tone.wav
There is no innocence in the eyes of an evil man with power. Referring to Judge Roy A. Scoggins 378th District Court
I'm concerned about people who provided cell numbers and unlisted numbers to the list.
Telemarketers have been able to download the list for some time now from donotcall.org. That means they not only have verified that your number is current but that they also have the potential to add to their call lists additional numbers they did not have before.
The nice lady at the court office said attorney's from neither side had ever mentioned that issue and that the judge had not considered it. I asked whether it was not incumbent upon a responsible judge to educate himself as to all the ramifications of any ruling he might make, whether those issues were raised by the parties or not. I reminded her that up to 50 million people are unofficial and apparently unrepresented parties to the suit and I would think the judge should have given a little thought to protecting my privacy rights as he made his ruling.
Congressman Tauzin's aide who is specifically taking calls re this ruling said 1) this issue isn't over - they are looking at legislation and/or challenges to the ruling and that they are moving quickly and 2) as far as she knows, no one at the legislative level has thought about the issue of unlisted numbers which might now be on that list in the hands of telemarketers. Oops. By the way, I started and ended that conversation by expressing appreciation to the Congressman for his efforts on our behalf.
Charlie, who answered the consumer complaint phone for the FTC Southeast region, was a little confused at first as to what my concern was. As soon as he "got it," he asked to be excused for a moment. When he came back a good while later, he reported that as far as they could tell, the download was still available on the website and they were escalating the question up the chain to the national level as quickly as possible so that someone could address it pronto. Good on Charlie! Very sharp young man -- he deserves a promotion!!
Don't you just love the level of foresight on the part of those working to "protect" our privacy? I mean, I truly do appreciate the effort, but they need to do their homework a little better.
computerlady - a brand new Slash-daughter - alone, but no longer invisible, in the
I'm not the parent, but I agree.
http://www.iiipublishing.com/afd/Coperson.htm
50 million people signed up for this list. Which is not the same as eliminating 50 million people who would never buy from the DMA's clients from their pool of numbers. I'm on the list. I would never buy anything pitched to me through unsolicted phone or e-mail contact. I am not who the DMA is afraid of losing.
The DMA is afrain of losing the people who are too timid to say no the telemarketers. Grandma just can't say no to the pushy TM on the phone, but she can call up the FTC (or is the FCC?) and get her off the list. It's the people, the people who don't want stuff but CAN'T SAY NO when asked to buy it that the DMA is terrified of losing.
Joel.
Sadly, in a democracy, "right" or "wrong" is irrelevant. It's what the majority wants that counts.
Now, strictly speaking, the US isn't a democracy. Ancient Athens was a democracy, and the voters decided everything of importance directly, much the way Californians vote at nearly every election to decide things their legislature probably could have handled for them.
The US is a democratic republic where the voters are represented by legislators who vote on their behalf. Those legislators are only beholden to honor the wishes of their constituents as long as they care about getting re-elected.
Unfortunately, in the US, those legislators are usually more concerned with getting re-elected than they are with doing what's right or even what their constituents want. So we get government-by-special-interest, where legislators push the agendas of their biggest contributors.
So, back to the original point: In any popular vote, whether the majority is right or wrong is irrelevant. They get what they want. Only people of conscience voting against what they think is wrong--regardless of the consequences--can hope to derail a wrong-headed majority.
Also, in the US, there's this little thing called the Constitution. It's very difficult to change the Constitution and the Constitution can be damnably inconvenient when the majority wants a law passed that discriminates against a specific minority. But, as we've seen in the past, even the Supreme Court's interpretation of the Constitution can be swayed by conventional wisdom of the day. Dredd Scott, anyone?
Companies with large-volume toll free call centers do not usually pay by the minute. They have dedicated voice circuits, and they pay the same amount for the circuit whether they are used 24/7 or not at all. In the old days the greater the distance a phone call covered, the more it cost. Today, distance plays almost no part in pricing calls. You can see this evidenced my free long distance on your cell phone, the MCI Neighborhood plan with unlimited long distance, etc.