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Who Owns Your Weblog?

An anonymous reader asks: "If you're a weblogger, have you read the fine print of your employment agreement? Many webloggers are techies and many tech employers have highly restrictive IP clauses in their employment contracts - the employers owns you and everything you do whether at work or at home or anywhere else. Are you sure you own your weblog? You may not be allowed to take it with you when you change jobs." As always, please remember to look over those employment contracts before you sign. With that point mentioned however, are employers still likely to employ someone who is willing to argue points on their contract, especially in this economic climate?

16 of 57 comments (clear)

  1. well by The+Clockwork+Troll · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Are employers still likely to employ someone who is willing to argue points on their contract, especially in this economic climate?
    Put another way, are you willing to sell out title to your potential future ventures for the "comfort" of short-term job security?
    --

    There are no karma whores, only moderation johns
    1. Re:well by stefanlasiewski · · Score: 3, Informative

      Put another way, are you willing to sell out title to your potential future ventures for the "comfort" of short-term job security?

      If you think it's about "comfort", you're probably not very familar with the dilemma.

      For most people, it's not a matter of "comfort", it's a matter of "Getting a job after a year of unemployment", "Not having to sell the house", "Feed the kids", "Switching industries and starting at the bottom", "Working at McDonalds".

      You make it seem like these these clauses are new. They've been in every employment contract I've seen for the last 8 years; and have been around for much, much longer then that.

      --
      "Can of worms? The can is open... the worms are everywhere."
    2. Re:well by bitty · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm gonna take hell for this, but I'm so damn tired of the whining.

      If you're out of work, and the unemployment benefits run out, swallow your goddamn pride and get that job flipping burgers. Then go out and get a second part-time -- hell, even a full time job scooping ice cream or pouring coffee or something. Do that while you're looking for that job in the area of your expertise.

      But how can I do interviews when I'm working all the time?

      Make your "weekends" on a Tuesday and Wednesday or something. Most employers in the food industry are very flexible, since they're open every day. That may just be enough to not have to sell the house, to put food on the table, etc.

      Stop bitching and do what you have to do to provide for your family, no matter how degrading.

    3. Re:well by anthony_dipierro · · Score: 2, Insightful

      One manager told me that the only reason they have that clause in the first contract they offer is as a test to see if an applicant will just accept what they are given, or if they will take the initiative to try to change it.

      Ah but which of those two types of people were they looking for?

    4. Re:well by MrResistor · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What is up with all the whiners who think "The current economic situation" is synonomous with "must let any prospective employer take you from behind". You don't want to work for someone who thinks it's OK to treat their employees that way.

      Despite all the whining, there are plenty of other employers out there, and many of them don't have such clauses in their contracts. In fact, I have never seen an employment contract that had such a clause, and I do read them. I was just hired at a large tech company with a large and very valuable IP portfolio and when I told the HR person who was going over the contract and other paperwork with me of my concerns she was quite shocked that a company would even think about trying to take ownership of something I did in my spare time.

      One final note on the lack of jobs: just because nobody's hiring doesn't mean the work doesn't still need to get done. Companys are making up for their self-imposed workforce shortage by bringing in temps, and that has worked out just fine for me. I entered the full-time workforce 4 years ago, and about 2/3 of that time I've been working as a temp. I've never been out of work for more than a week at a time or more than 3 weeks total per year, and I've never had a problem paying my bills or supporting my family.

      --
      Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.
  2. easy. I do. by susehat · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I never let anyone have my ideas. I always disclose that I have the rights to all my work, and my employer has no rights at all, unless I implicitly assign them. I usually do, but hey, still, I'm not going to sell out. I have yet to run into any issues in the past, and this was for a government contractor.

  3. Law? by LarryRiedel · · Score: 5, Informative

    I work in california.us, where we have laws about this kind of thing, for example:

    2870. (a) Any provision in an employment agreement which provides
    that an employee shall assign, or offer to assign, any of his or her
    rights in an invention to his or her employer shall not apply to an
    invention that the employee developed entirely on his or her own time
    without using the employer's equipment, supplies, facilities, or
    trade secret information except for those inventions that either:
    (1) Relate at the time of conception or reduction to practice of
    the invention to the employer's business, or actual or demonstrably
    anticipated research or development of the employer; or
    (2) Result from any work performed by the employee for the
    employer.
    (b) To the extent a provision in an employment agreement purports
    to require an employee to assign an invention otherwise excluded from
    being required to be assigned under subdivision (a), the provision
    is against the public policy of this state and is unenforceable.

    2871. No employer shall require a provision made void and
    unenforceable by Section 2870 as a condition of employment or
    continued employment. Nothing in this article shall be construed to
    forbid or restrict the right of an employer to provide in contracts
    of employment for disclosure, provided that any such disclosures be
    received in confidence, of all of the employee's inventions made
    solely or jointly with others during the term of his or her
    employment, a review process by the employer to determine such issues
    as may arise, and for full title to certain patents and inventions
    to be in the United States, as required by contracts between the
    employer and the United States or any of its agencies.

    Larry

    1. Re:Law? by exhilaration · · Score: 2, Redundant
      Dude, I think this part sums it up pretty well: shall not apply to an invention that the employee developed entirely on his or her own time without using the employer's equipment, supplies, facilities...

      If you're doing this using your employer's computer, using your employer's Internet connectivity, in your employer's facilities then you this law doesn't protect you.

    2. Re:Law? by yuri+benjamin · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If you're doing this using your employer's computer, using your employer's Internet connectivity, in your employer's facilities then you this law doesn't protect you.

      And neither should it! They provide you with the tools to do your job for them, not for your own use.
      OTOH I don't see what business it is of theirs what you do in your own time with your own resources.

      A very sensible law.

      --
      You make the mistake of thinking you can educate the fundamental stupidity out of people. You can't.
  4. Creative editing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting
    A while back, my employer asked me to sign yet another IP assignment agreement ... sigh. Fortunately, it was sent around as an MS-Word document to be printed, signed and turned in to HR.

    The doc was much like previous ones, but contained a total assignment of all copyrights. I thought that was over-reaching, and modified the language to read exactly like for inventions and patents "in the course of or resulting from employment". Signed and sent the form in two years ago. No probs. They won't look at it unless they want to fire me, and even then, likely will not notice because the language is totally innocuous.

    Still posted as AC for obvious reasons.

  5. Experience With a Restrictive Employment Contract by Babbster · · Score: 4, Informative
    First off, I'm not a techie, so this won't apply to a great many people here. That being said, these kinds of agreements have popped up in a lot of places over the past decade or so even outside the tech professions.

    My experience was at the American Red Cross. I was responsible for maintaining our local list of ineligible blood donors (positive infectious disease test results and the like). One day, everyone in the place was presented with a new "employment agreement" which we were supposed to sign. One of the provisions indicated just what is described in this story; specifically, anything I happened to create, invent, design, etc. - whether during work hours or not - belonged to the American Red Cross unless they decided to relinquish those rights. Now, I'm no kind of inventor but I was 23 years old with few responsibilities beyond myself and so I was the perfect person to protest this agreement on pure principle. I adamantly refused to sign the paper because I felt that it gave too much power over my life to my employer, not to mention the fact that a non-profit corporation specializing in disaster relief and blood collection/distribution shouldn't have an interest in anything that I create (assuming it has nothing to do with disaster relief, blood collection, etc.).

    At first, I was told that if I didn't sign the paper I was risking the loss of my job. I maintained that this was a chance I was willing to take (and encouraged others to do the same). About a month later, the new employment agreement was revised into a more palatable format. Though I can't recall if it specified inventions/creations relating specifically to my employment or if the clause was taken out completely, the document was acceptable and I signed.

    My advice is pretty simple: Check your state/local laws - as in a post above, an overly restrictive clause of this nature could be invalid on its face. If it IS valid, then you have to decide if a) you're willing (and financially able) to leave the job on principle to hopefully find one where you're not forced to sign such an odious document, b) you're going to create/design/invent something in which your company would want to claim an interest or c) you know you're not going to create something that you will want to sell (or release, a la open source) to which you could lose your rights. After all, while a company could theoretically lay claim to, for example, your David Hasselhoff fan site, they probably won't. On the other hand, if you create brand new database software in your free time while working for [any] software company, they could potentially strip it from you and from anyone else to whom you have given or sold it.

    At the risk of going too long, remember too that Steve Wozniak worked for HP when he created the Apple computer. He offered it to them because as part of his contract he was required to do so. They had no interest at all, which I'm sure they regretted for a long time.

  6. So, use Greenspun's "Gang of Five" model... by ivi · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The quoted name is my spin-off...
    and - it's been a so long since I
    first read about it - that I may
    have the number of team members
    wrong...

    But the idea is something like this:

    It's a business model for database-based
    web system design that brings [4 or] 5
    talents together to work on a stream of
    projects, rotating "hats" (ie, Project
    Manage, Programmer, Customer Liason,
    Graphic Designer, et al.) as they move
    from one project to another.

    As the number of projects grows to be
    more than one "Gang of [4 or] Five"
    can handle, another "Gang" forms to
    handle the overload.

    I suppose there could be a loose coupling
    between the various, independent "Gangs"
    (eg, to enable "load balancing" to happen),
    but they could just as well remain separate
    entities & control their own destinies...
    a bit like music bands.

    Thus, if you control your own destiny,
    you can write your own IP clauses...
    to encourage members' creativity,
    while still protecting Clients' rights
    to their IP & sensitive business info.

    I can see a contract (akin to the GPL),
    - incorporating these IP terms - that
    each "Gang of [4 or] Five" would find
    acceptable.

    Of course, I can also see a family of
    such contracts (like those that have
    been embraced by one or more developers
    of various flavors of Open Source S/W),
    that new "Gangs" could choose, accord-
    ing to their &/or their current Client's
    preferences & needs.

    IMO this problem has an easy solution!

  7. I do it by setien · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I always argue whatever points I feel unfair on my contract. The last 3 jobs I have had, I have had them change that clause so it only includes what I do in my working hours.
    I find that clause so completely unacceptable, and I think any workplace who would not concede to change it, are a bunch of nasty buggers anyway.
    I argue that I partake in open source projects and free/shareware. That's usually ample argument.

    --
    Give me liberty or give me kill -s 9
  8. Re:Does your webhost own your weblog? by MonTemplar · · Score: 3, Interesting

    FWIW, I'm using Radio Userland for my weblog, and publishing it via my own domain and webspace, both supplied by 1&1 Internet here in the UK. All the content (posts, stories, pictures, etc) are held on my PC, and pushed out to the website (thankfully, I have a broadband connection) when I do updates. The other stuff (comments, trackback information) is held on the Userland 'cloud'. In theory, I should be able to transfer my weblog to a new domain and keep everything intact.

    MT.

    --
    -MT.
  9. Re:News how...? by gl4ss · · Score: 2, Informative

    In most places such clauses carry no legal weight at all anyways, since you just can't sign some rights away(to avoid slavery&etc). Sure, the employer owns rights to stuff you do for them...

    --
    world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
  10. You don't have to accept it by TheLink · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Either you walk away or:

    a) Negotiate. (if you have good rapport)
    OR
    b) Change the contract explicitly - strike out paragraphs. (if you have good bargaining power or couldn't be bothered).
    OR
    c) Write a new contract that looks almost the same and use it.
    (if you don't have bargaining power).

    Yes. Change it to suit yourself. Print it out again make it look almost exactly the same - fonts, layout etc.

    If both parties sign it, then it's agreed then. Hey they entered into it with their eyes opened right?

    Just tell them you need time to think about it. Go home, pick the right fonts, similar paper and reproduce the whole thing with a few custom changes.

    Remember keep a straight face, sign it, give it to them and they'll probably sign it without reading the fine print (idiots ;) ).

    If they notice, well you've proven one thing to them at least:
    1) you're resourceful.
    2) you're one of the few who treat what they sign seriously. Not one of the sheeple.

    I've successfully done a similar thing before on a so called NDA. Took me a couple of hours to retype the thing and get the font sizes right.

    But let me put it this way - the new NDA didn't restrict my rights at all...

    Of course in the US you might come under the DMCA for reverse engineering the contract document or some other dumb US law. But I'm not in the US.

    --