TIA Project to End

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Posted by CowboyNeal on Friday September 26, 2003 @12:04AM from the let-freedom-ring dept.

Marnhinn writes "MSNBC is reporting that the Terrorism Spying Project (also known as TIA) is dead. The government is cancelling most of the project and changing the rest to focus on people outside the United States." TIA had been on death's door for a while, but now it's finally official. Some of the programs will still be around, however, they will just be shifted over to different departments.

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I'm not an American... by MaestroSartori · 2003-09-26 00:07 · Score: 5, Insightful

...and I don't think I'm hugely paranoid about evil government and so on, but I suspect most of the things that TIA was going to do are probably already going on in one form or another behind the scenes.

Maybe the only good thing about formalising it would be that at least there'd be some sort of accountability...

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1. Re:I'm not an American... by AlecC · 2003-09-26 00:18 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  A legal loophole would allow lets say the US and UK to have an agreement whereby they say "you spy on mine and I'ill spy on yours and we'ill exchange the information"
  
  While, as you say, this might well be legal, the political/PR consequences if it got out would be enormous - far too much risk for the "other" govenrment to take. Look how much fuss there was when the Israelis were found to be collecting relatively samlla amounts of information about the US.
  
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  Consciousness is an illusion caused by an excess of self consciousness.
2. Re:I'm not an American... by KingJoshi · 2003-09-26 00:30 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  When there were rumors that the US has bugged rooms in the United Nations a little while back, I think ALL the diplomats reacted as though it was common practice. And not just from the United States either.
  
  And it's not just about US planting bugs all over China's premier's plane. It'd be foolish for leaders of ally nations to assume that just because you're an ally, that we won't try to get more info than you're telling us. And we'd be foolish not to expect the same.
  
  So, with that said, it'd make sense if the FBI/CIA or whomever contacted agencies in UK and said, would you happen to have info on this guy...
  
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  In times like these, it is helpful to remember that there have always been times like these. - Paul Harvey
3. Re:I'm not an American... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-09-26 04:01 · Score: 1, Insightful
  
  Maybe the only good thing about formalising it would be that at least there'd be some sort of accountability...
  
  I have to credit you for the positive attitude. However, the mere existence of TIA, MATRIX, and other constitutionally illegal laws is concrete evidence the people running the show have no firm belief in following the rules. If they aren't following the core tenats of our society, why should they make more than a token effort to obey some rule written yesterday, ie; make themselves accountable?
4. Re:I'm not an American... by EvilTwinSkippy · 2003-09-26 05:01 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  Except that, in turn, is illegal. You can't collect domestic intelligence, and you cannot accept domestic intelligence from outside sources.
  This goes back to Nixon when the put a wall up between the FBI and the CIA. The CIA has no law enforcement role, and can gather all of the speculative information it cares to.
  The FBI's mission is law enforcement. Everything the FBI gathers has the possibility of being dragged into a courtroom. They have to play by the books, or they cannot use their evidence in a trial.
  The trial of Zacarias Moussaoui is a textbook reason why such a division exists. All of the evidence gathered about him is non-admissible in court, according to the rules laid out in the Constitution. Had the FBI gathered this information on their own, they would have a much stronger case. Instead, they nabbed a few CIA files, and took depositions from witnesses they had no intention of allowing Mr. Moussaoui to confront, and are citing intelligence that they don't want in the public record.
  The Judge in the case has declared Shenanigans on the Justice Department, mostly on 6th admendment grounds:
  Admendment VI In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.
  
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  "Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
  --Dr.W.Edwards Deming
5. Re:I'm not an American... by Gerdia · 2003-09-26 05:13 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  supposedly...
  
  The NSA records and evaluates the communications of US citizens all the time. They are watching, of course. They have cast a huge net and overhear all sorts of things.
  
  However, they cannot use these things as evidence in a US court unless they had permission from a judge to conduct the surveillance, before the fact. I don't know how difficult this is to acquire these days, but I believe it is still the case.
  
  They cannot use intelligence from foreign countries to spy on US citizens without a judge's approval either. so it is said...
  
  This doesn't mean they wouldn't overhear something and then "anonymously" call the local police tip line in your area... or doing something else to "launder" the information. I'm sure there are many little birdies telling all sorts of things these days.
Whatever... by goldenfield · 2003-09-26 00:08 · Score: 5, Insightful

So its 'officially' cancelled...I have a hard time believe that the government thought it was important/useful, and now everyone has agreed that we don't need it, and has moved on.

So now there's no offical TIA project...that just means they can hide bits and pieces of it in other projects.

If they want the data, they'll get it.
Re:So does that make it right by Anonymous Coward · 2003-09-26 00:21 · Score: 2, Insightful

It makes it silly to say "that's what Hitler did" as if somehow internal intelligence services were a unique feature of Nazism.
not only outside the US... by upstateguy · 2003-09-26 00:23 · Score: 2, Insightful

The program still continues on non-citizens while they are in the U.S.

From the article linked (emphasis mine):

But they shifted some of the high-powered software under development to different government offices, to be used to gather intelligence from U.S. citizens abroad and foreigners in this country and abroad.
Don't be naive by Anonymous Coward · 2003-09-26 00:34 · Score: 1, Insightful

TIA is too valuable to die. It's the best weapon bureaucrats have to preserve their jobs, and that is the number one priority of any bureaucrat. Public service is at best a second priority, and usually not even that.

Consider this article from today's news: IRS considers giving data to other agencies: http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/artic les/2003/09/25/irs_considers_giving_data_to_other_ agencies/

The biggest threat to America and its freedoms is not from Dictators, but from the bureaucrats who "want to help us".
Like the Office of Strategic Influence? by I+am+Jack's+username · 2003-09-26 00:47 · Score: 4, Insightful

"And then there was the office of strategic influence. [...] I went down that next day and said fine, if you want to savage this thing fine I'll give you the corpse. There's the name. You can have the name, but I'm gonna keep doing every single thing that needs to be done and I have." - Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, 2002-11-18, http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Nov2002/t11212002_ t1118sd2.html
Spying by chrystoph · 2003-09-26 01:10 · Score: 3, Insightful

I think that the whole spying thing can be summed up with a poster the Security Officer at one of my Navy commands had on his wall.

"Countries do not have friends, only interests."

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As easy as herding cats!
1. Re:Spying by Stiletto · 2003-09-26 02:12 · Score: 1, Insightful
  
  I think that the whole spying thing can be summed up with a poster the Security Officer at one of my Navy commands had on his wall.
  
  "Countries do not have friends, only interests."
  
  That seems to at least sum up the "United States foreign policy" thing. And we wonder why the whole world hates us...
electoral reasons? by wannasleep · 2003-09-26 01:22 · Score: 2, Insightful

So, the US has stopped the part of the project that has to do with people who are more likely to vote. Why not on Americans abroad? Are they more likely to be terrorists? And foreigners who live in the US?
What are american companies supposed to do? Suppose I am Visa. Should I give out information on my foreign customers who do not live in the US? Example: in many European countries, credit reporting agencies can not be established because they would be in violation of privacy laws. How would the information be gathered? If we stick to publicly available sources, you can't get very far in Europe, and I don't see foreign companies giving out data to the american government. So, my take is that they are publicly saying the they closing it (elections are getting closer) and they will do it in another way. Or... they have completed it and they do not need new funds.

I see that the US institutions are increasingly becoming xenophobic, which seems to pay off. Nothing unites more than a common enemy. Now, if you are a foreigner you can be detained indefinitely with no charge as long as somebody suspects that you are a terrorist. Now you can be spied upon at will, and I am already excited by the Patriot Act II which will restrict some more freedoms.
Re:The 52 most dangerous American officials by ultrasound · 2003-09-26 01:42 · Score: 2, Insightful

Stay exactly where you are, place your hands against the wall and remain in that position. You will be collected shortly.

You are scheduled for a visit to a thought re-alignment centre where a quick mental enema will cure you of your ills. Reading non-US approved news sources is unpatriotic and will not be tolerated.

Have a nice day!

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Re:Why, yes, it IS an aluminum foil hat. by rot26 · 2003-09-26 02:25 · Score: 3, Insightful

As hard as it may be to believe, Ashcroft has nothing to do with TIA or anything else in the Pentagon. TIA was Poindexter's baby and carried Rumsfeld's seal of approval, not Ashcroft's.

And pry-thee which division of the Defense Department was going to use TIA had it been fully implemented and deployed?

DARPA may be part of the Defense Department, but in this case they were essentially a contractor developing a product for use by Justice.

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To ensure perfect aim, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target
Re:Why, yes, it IS an aluminum foil hat. by Anonymous Coward · 2003-09-26 03:46 · Score: 1, Insightful

Almost every single American breaks laws right now. Which ones do you break? Should you be tracked? What about me? Where is the line drawn?

People like you are more of an enemy to America and freedom than terrorists ever were, and you don't even realize it.
Blah, blah, blah, whine, whine, whine... by DrMorpheus · 2003-09-26 04:39 · Score: 2, Insightful

Let me guess, you'd also complain about MSNBC had the story been about a bunch of notoriously right-wing Americans publishing the same deck of cards with various French officials' pictures on it, right Mr. "Fair & Objective"?

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Debunking the "59 Deceits"
Re:Gotta give them credit by symbolic · 2003-09-26 04:45 · Score: 4, Insightful

DARPA's dreaded Total Information Awareness (TIA) program, formerly administered by convicted felon and Republican hero John Poindexter of Iran-Contra fame...

Very few articles about TIA seem to mention the fact that Poindexter is a person that cannot be trusted, or that he's associated with a political party that has pushed the notion of 'patriotism' onto a dangerous, rocky slope that has every American citizen under suspicion for possible terrorist activity. TIA will not provide any protection against terrorism, but if history is any indication, it will provide plenty of opportunity for abuse.
Oh Goodie... by Bohnanza · 2003-09-26 05:32 · Score: 2, Insightful

So now instead of having a database of everything about everybody, the government will have a SECRET database of everything about everybody.

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Sorry, I'm only a 1336 h4x0r.
What makes a better headline? by commodoresloat · 2003-09-26 06:45 · Score: 2, Insightful

French Conspiracy Theorists Hate US

or

French media encourage a robust and informative debate about US policy
Re:The priviledge of being American by DEBEDb · 2003-09-26 09:22 · Score: 2, Insightful

No, we do not. We extend rights to all people,
until it is proven that they are criminal
(terrorist, illegal in US, etc.) at which
point rights are taken away.

That's a bit harder to understand than
"terrorists should have no rights", but
I hope you'll manage.

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Considered harmful.