Virtual Grid Supercomputer Goes (Partly) Online

hotsauce writes "The BBC is reporting that CERN (the guys who invented the Web) are working on a virtual supercomputer called the Grid. The Grid taps computing power from 12 countries to process data from a new supercollider that will simulate parts of the Big Bang. Phase One of the Grid just went online."

Comments

Over-hyped

[TwistedSquare]

I have heard from some people involved in the grid that it is a triumph of PR over substance, and that it is not going to be as well-used and participated in as the press releases suggest...

Re:Over-hyped

[grid geek]

I'm doing my PhD on it at the moment. While there is a lot of hype there is a lot more substance to it than there was 2 years ago.

For example we now have a single sign on system spread over more than a dozen countries (never easy when the gov wants to know why other countries scientists are using their machines.)

Loads of work has been done on integrating data resources into the network, large scale systems configuration, data discover etc.

As ever the BBC is a bit behind on the news - this is just a new releases of the software. And there had better be substance when LHC comes on line in 2007/8 as it will be generating 15, 000 TB of data to be stored a year and we need some way to deal with this.

Re:Over-hyped

[cperciva]

I'd go further than that. I've heard the EU DataGrid described as a perfect example of how not to run a large software project.

People working in half a dozen different languages (natural languages, that is, not programming languages!), a complete lack of chain-of-command, software being signed off on because a document detailing critical bugs had been produced (even though the critical bugs weren't fixed!), progress reports being sent back for revision because "they weren't positive enough"...

Take the worst elements of decentralized open-source programming, combine them with the worst elements of government beaurocracy -- and then replace half of the programmers with physicists who have less programming experience than most second year CS majors -- and you'll get somewhere close to what I've been told about the EU Datagrid.

Of course, this is all second-hand information. Maybe the person who was telling me all of this is just a burnt-out coder who would be unhappy with whatever project he was working on. But I doubt it.

Re:Over-hyped

[pubjames]

People working in half a dozen different languages (natural languages, that is, not programming languages!),

Welcome to reality. Reality for most of the rest of the world, that is.

In Europe we speak lots of languages. That's the reality of the situation. Of course this isn't as efficient as just speaking one language, but it is the reality. I know, as an American you're probably thinking "well why don't you all just speak English?"

I had a funny situation on the outskirts of San Francisco once. I asked a guy sweeping up outside a MacDonalds some directions. I replied in very stilted English that he couldn't understand me because he didn't speak English. I noticed his accent so I asked him my question in Spanish. The look of suprise and joy on his face was comical. He told me that most Americans can't speak another language and expect you to learn English, but not speaking another language themselves don't realise that learning another language isn't easy. And they treat you like crap and think you're stupid if you can't speak English. I don't know if what he said is true or not, but unfortunately I don't find it hard to believe.

Re:Over-hyped

[cperciva]

Sure, there are lots of languages in Europe. But do you really need to have half a dozen of them in a project which only has a hundred people?

Any company which was running a project like this would have picked one location, hired a bunch of people, and had them all working in the same building, speaking the same language. It's only because of EU politics -- the requirement that the EU Datagrid be a multinational consortium -- that there are so many languages and locations involved.

Re:When will we do this ourselves?

[grid geek]

No, seti is a distributed application - 3 million instances of the same program. The grid is a distributed environment - an operating system if you like, which programmers can write their own applications to run on top of.

Like the OS for your desktop the Grid's middleware software deals with things like I/O, resource allocation, security etc.

So, seti@home could run on the grid, but is not a grid in its own right.

What they do at CERN

[hkon]

Is it just me, or is referring to CERN as "the guys who invented the web" a bit like referring to Paul McCartney as "the guy from Wings"? To a lot of people, CERN is probably better known as "the guys who know more than anyone about particle physics".

Under-hyped

[pubjames]

I think one thing that distinguishes the USA from Europe (and in fact many other countries) is that, in the USA, you're really good at hyping stuff.

Over here in Europe we're crap at it, or rather, it's not seen as being so important - which I believe is a mistake.

I was once knew a marketing person at CERN who said that as they had invented the web, they were thinking of putting up some good web pages about it to let the world know what they had achieved. Later I found out that she had been told that it had been decided that it wasn't a priority and so no budget was allocated to it. So outside of techy fields most people in the world don't know that the web was invented in Europe. (Yes, I know the Internet network was an American invention).

This is true of many other achievements in Europe. For instance, everyone in the world knows lots about NASA and yet very little about the achievements of the European Space Agency, which has also done some really impressive things.

The USA also has a good way of claiming innovations as its own, by "Americanising" everything. So, for instance, most people - Americans and non-Americans - think that most technological innovation during the last century has been American, whereas in actual fact much of it was just "absorbed" by America. Example - landing on the moon is seen as a purely American achievement but was actually significantly based on German work. Another example - Einstein was of course European but many people believe he was American.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not really criticising the USA, I'm actually criticising Europe for not promoting its achievements or those of its citizens. And of course one of the great things about the USA is that it has the money and drive to make things happen, which is why many projects initiated in other places end up taking off in the USA. But it is frustrating to meet Americans that believe that everything is invented in America.

Re:Under-hyped

[pubjames]

Einstein, of course, was an American, and like many other Americans, he was born somewhere else, and got here as quickly as he could.

Einstein was born in 1879 and moved to America in 1931 at the age of 52.