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Dark Matter's Profile Discovered?

pingbak writes "According to New Scientist, astronomers may have potentially discovered dark matter's EM profile (story). For the rest of us, this means astronomers may have just discovered all of the extra force holding the galaxy(-ies) together, which is not currently explainable though gravity and black holes at the center of universes alone. Since dark matter doesn't interact with ordinary matter, it's almost directly undetectable -- but now, physics and astronomy may just have had an awesome breakthrough. Nobel Prize material if it proves correct!"

26 of 83 comments (clear)

  1. Dark Matter Explaination? by Randolpho · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Um... perhaps I'm very much misinformed, which is entirely possible, but the article submission makes the claim that Dark Matter doesn't interact with regular matter.

    WTF? I thought the reason we're looking for Dark Matter is because the matter we *know* about doesn't add up to cause the gravetic interactions that we can observe. I thought Dark Matter was just matter we couldn't observe just yet, not some exotic "doesn't work the same as other matter" matter.

    Am I totally wrong here?

    --
    "Times have not become more violent. They have just become more televised."
    -Marilyn Manson
    1. Re:Dark Matter Explaination? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Am I totally wrong here?

      Probably not. It's a while since I did physics, but these dark matter theories to me sound like the epicyclic theories of the solar system of old. They are too convoluted to be natural IMHO. It's only in the last decade or so that telescopes (including the HST) have given us much insight into what's out there, along with the gamma ray observatories and orbiting infrared telescopes. Heck, we've only just figured out the Solar Neutrino Problem. I don't doubt the particle physicists will throw up some surprises eventually, but my hunch is that we still have a lot to discover with space-based telescopes across the whole range of the electromagnetic spectrum. This is wht orbiting gamma ray, x-ray, infra-red and optical observatories are important.

    2. Re:Dark Matter Explaination? by CheshireCatCO · · Score: 5, Interesting

      They've looked pretty hard and carefully for normal, baryonic matter to cause the effects. So far, little has turned up.

      On the other hand, it's pretty clear at this point that dark matter in *some* form must exist. It's just a simple grasp of gravity coupled with some weird observations that lead to this conclusion. It is, in fact, very similar to the way Neptune was discovered. First, notice something odd about Uranus's orbit, then realize that another planet at position X could explain it. Just do it with galaxies and clusters, instead, and you start to suspect there's dark matter out there. Do some surveys and find that there doesn't appear to be enough brown dwarfs and black holes to make up the needed mass.

      To be honest, while I'm a planetary scientist and thus obligated to make fun of cosmologists, I don't find dark matter, even heretofore undiscovered particles, that hard to believe. Not only is the evidence pretty good, it isn't difficult to imagine that we've only scratched the surface of what is out there. You suggest that we're just finding "what's out there" (a claim with which I might quibble). So why is hard to believe that we haven't found all of the particles in the subatomic zoo? Especially given that the ones we seek are, by definition, difficult to find.

      And if you want "too convoluted to be natural", study quantum mechanics. It seems the universe doesn't care what we consider to be "natural", after all.

      (And now, a few quibbles: the SNP was only recently really clinched with lab data, but people had speculated about the solution, neutrino oscillations, for quite a while before hand. The same is true of a lot of what HST and others have told us in the past decade: usually, they're helping refine our models and confirm our best guesses as to what's out there. So it isn't like astronomers a decade ago would be shocked at what we've learned.)

    3. Re:Dark Matter Explaination? by radtea · · Score: 3, Informative

      There are in fact many dark matter problems. This work deals with galactic dark matter only, which could be solved by normal matter. This is not the case for dark matter problems on larger scales.

      On scales larger than galaxies, we can see that galaxies and groups of galaxies appear affected by stronger gravitational forces than can be accounted for by visible matter, and on very large scales it appears that there is more gravity than can be accounted for by ordinary matter, period.

      There are strict limits on the amount of ordinary (baryonic) matter that come from primordial nucleo-synthesis. In the early seconds after the Big Bang, the quark-gluon plasma cooled down to form baryons (protons and neutrons, to you.) Eventually (some seconds or minutes later) the baryons cooled down to the point where their average energy was low enough that when they ran into each other they tended to stick together rather than flying apart again.

      The nuclei formed in these early times were: hydrogen (single protons), deuterium (p+n), 3He (p+n+n), 4He (p+p+n+n) and tiny amounts of lithium and above. As you can imagine, the ratios of hydrogen to everything else are critically dependent on the density of neutrons at the time these nuclei were forming: the more neutrons, the more heavy nuclei. We can infer from observations on stars fromed shortly (~millions of years) after the Big Bang what these ratios were, which tells us the density of neutrons and protons at that time. We also know the volume (curvature) of the universe at that time, and so can infer the total number of baryons in the universe.

      There are not enough baryons to account for the gravitational (or gravity-like) forces acting at the largest observable scales. Ergo, something else is happening (or the observations are wrong, which is always a possibility.)

      Given the number of dark matter problems, it is unlikely that one particle will solve them all, and quite possible that we are seeing the effects of quite different causes at different scales. This should not be a surprise. For example, we already see very different causes at nuclear scales vs. atomic scales vs planetary scales. It is possible that on galactic and size-of-the-universe scales different causes are at work as well, either due to hitherto undiscovered forces or equally unknown particles.

      --Tom

      --
      Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
    4. Re:Dark Matter Explaination? by SEE · · Score: 2, Interesting

      In order for Newton's Law of Gravitation to work out with the observed orbit of Mercury, a new planet closer to the sun, generally called Vulcan, was postulated. It was never observed, but it had to be there, because of the gravitational effects.

      Then Einstein showed we didn't understand gravity sufficiently, and his General Relativity eliminated the need for Vulcan.

      In order for Einstein's General Relativity to work out for the observed motions of galaxies, dark matter and dark energy have been postulates. They've never been observed, but they have to be there, because of the gravitational effects.

      Will someone else come along and show that we don't understand gravity sufficiently, and postulate a theory that will eliminate the need for dark matter and energy?

  2. These are the jokes, folks... by GR|MLOCK · · Score: 2, Funny

    I, for one, welcome our new dark matters. Er, masters.

  3. Re:Electrons? by BigBir3d · · Score: 3, Informative
    I am sure that this is more due to the writer's lack of understanding of the subject, then to what appears to be grand jumps in logic. I am somewhat sure the language of the paper will be much more clear.
    However, because dark matter "feels" gravity like ordinary visible matter, it is a fair bet that it clumps in the centre of our galaxy.
    Previous statement makes no sense until it is explained later that they started down the course of thinking dark matter has a mass far less then previously postulated.
    "Heavy dark matter particles would produce high-energy electrons," says Hooper. "Since it's difficult to imagine how they could be slowed to a standstill, we were forced to consider a surprisingly light dark matter particle."

    By "light", the researchers mean one to 100 megaelectronvolts, which is between 1000 and 10 times lighter than a proton.
  4. a little from column A, a little from... by bscott · · Score: 4, Interesting

    What they mean by "weakly interacting" is similar to how neutrinos are described - it doesn't have much of an electromagnetic impression, so it doesn't block light or smack into a detector in an earthbound observatory. Unlike neutrinos, it does posess a significant mass and is affected by gravity. And while that is "exotic", astrophysicists were only forced to consider this sort of thing when all previous efforts to explain some pretty obvious mis-matches in the numbers didn't work.

    Now I'll let someone else explain about "dark energy"...

    --
    Perfectly Normal Industries
    1. Re:a little from column A, a little from... by SpaceLifeForm · · Score: 2, Funny
      Now I'll let someone else explain about "dark energy"...

      I'm not sure exactly what it is, but it is believed that copious amounts exist in Redmond and at the USPTO.

      --
      You are being MICROattacked, from various angles, in a SOFT manner.
  5. Profile by mopslik · · Score: 4, Funny

    In other news, dark matter's IM profile has also been found:

    Name: Matter, Dark
    Nick: d4rkm4tt3r
    Age: ~15 billion years
    Likes: Vast emptiness of the cosmos.
    Dislikes: Peeping-Tom astronomers.
    Bio: I generally keep a low profile, out of sight. Maybe one day, the matter of my dreams will see me for who I really am.

  6. Gotta love Astro/Quantum physics by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 2, Interesting
    So, two leading theories on Dark Matter are:
    • it's a particle that's all around us, but has very strange energy levels and we've never detected it.
    • there's no dark matter, just gravity intruding into our 4D universe from other branes, which we can't detect and can barely imagine.

    Gotta love it. :)
    --
    My God, it's Full of Source!
    OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    1. Re:Gotta love Astro/Quantum physics by Jerf · · Score: 2, Funny

      Yeah, gotta love it. These are the same people who snort at "intelligent design" but then join SETI@Home because they think they can empirically identify intelligence...

      The entrophy value for your message is much, much lower then the maximum it can have for that length. The probability of that occurring by natural chance is very low.

      When you figure out how those two sentences are related to your post, you'll understand the SETA@Home people. Enjoy learning. Warning: May be mind expanding.

  7. good description of the kinds of dark matter by rsdavis9 · · Score: 4, Informative

    http://www.astro.queensu.ca/~dursi/dm-tutorial/dm0 .html

    From the link above there is:
    1. cold dark ordinary matter(baryonic)
    2. Non baryonic(exotic) dark matter both hot and cold

    The article seems to indicate wilp(weakly interacting light particles instead of (in addition to) wimps(weakly interacting massive particles. Wilp's are like neutrinos. We have not discovered any wimps yet.

    1. Re:good description of the kinds of dark matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny
      We have not discovered any wimps yet.
      KERNEL PANIC -- Joke potential overload -- cannot continue
  8. Electronium? by 4of12 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    IANAHEP, but is there anypossibility that an electron and a positron could orbit one another with a reasonably long half-life?

    --
    "Provided by the management for your protection."
    1. Re:Electronium? by barawn · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Positronium.

      It has a half-life of 0.1 uS. It's a relatively standard physics problem at the graduate school level to ask what the binding energy of positronium is.

      If it ever comes up, it's (1/2) the binding energy of a hydrogen atom. The reasoning is simple - a positron and a proton have the same charge, but a positron and an electron have the same mass, so the "reduced mass factor" is 1/2, rather than 1. (M_p/(m_e+m_p) ~= 1) vs (M_e/(m_e+m_e) = 1/2).

    2. Re:Electronium? by zangdesign · · Score: 2, Funny

      Which leads to the inevitable conclusion: A 1x10-7 second here, a 1x10-7 second there, sooner or later we're talkin' real time!

      --
      To celebrate the occasion of my 1000th post, I will post no more forever on Slashdot. Goodbye.
  9. Re:Dark Matter Explanation? by Euphonious+Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting
    If it was ordinary matter, it ought to make stars, or smash into other bits, and then we'd see it. When they say "weakly interacting", that includes gravity but not electromagnetics or nuclear forces.

    The assumption that these photons have anything to do with dark matter, though, has more to do with fashion and funding than actual science. It's cool and helpful to have your new observation associated with something everybody's already keen on. What they do know, though, is that whatever's producing the photons is distributed like the galaxy's mass is, not like the visible stars are.

  10. Re:Electrons? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    Some references...astronomy.net and the referred to article

  11. the draft version of their paper by pbhj · · Score: 2, Informative

    http://www.arxiv.org/PS_cache/astro-ph/pdf/0309/03 09686.pdf ... this must be a draft there's a typo in their ackowledgments (I checked all the equations and they look OK though ;0)>

  12. Neutrino's Big Cousin -- conclusions by pbhj · · Score: 3, Interesting

    In the conclusions they appear to be saying that some new interaction is happening due to ('mediated by') exchange of a light gauge boson (translation: low-energy force-carrying integer-spin-particle)

    Alternatively a new heavy fermion (neutrinos are fermionic, spin-1/2) mediates in the interaction: their words "could be responsible". So you might not be far off (if there second guess is correct).

    Start talking Nobel prizes when CERN/Fermilab find either of these particles.

    [... I've not done any particle physics for 5 years so this could be baloney.]

  13. Re:Electrons? by KDan · · Score: 4, Informative

    There are many reasons, but one which you might look at is the large amounts of radiation coming from the galactic nucleus. As you may know, electrons absorb radiation and gain energy (velocity) when they do so.

    Another explanation, if you take away the radiation, would involve a huge fermi sphere of electons which would require that only very few of them are sitting in that big gravity well with no kinetic energy.

    There are other reasons why electrons would be very unlikely to be found at rest at the galactic core, but I think these will do.

    Daniel

    --
    Carpe Diem
  14. Re:center of universes? by Red+Rocket · · Score: 3, Funny


    And more to the point, how do they find the centers?

    You just keep licking them and you eventually get to the centers.

    --
    - Hail to our fearless misleader! Fool speed ahead!
  15. /. already knew this by darkpurpleblob · · Score: 2, Informative
  16. Re:I don't get it by Royster · · Score: 3, Interesting

    There have been two leading candidates for dark matter: WIMPs and MACHOs. Each camp have had their proponents.

    WIMPS: Weakly Interacting Massive Particles. Neutrinos on steriods. Since they only interact through the weak and gravitational forces, they are by definintion dark in EM. But, we haven't found any in colliders.

    MACHOs: MAssive Cosmic Halo Objects. You're describing MACHOs. Ordinary, cold, dark matter. But there's probably too much of it to be this. It should have been swept up into stars.

    Frankly, I think that the energy levels detected will prove to be not what we're seeking here. It's too much of a coincidence that it is the e/e-bar annilation energy. OTOH, if there were a WILP which did have such a mass, we'd probably never see it thinking we were looking at e/e-bar reactions.

    --
    I have discovered a truly marvelous sig, unfortunately the sig limit is too small to contain i
  17. Re:center of universes? by dustmote · · Score: 2, Informative

    According to my friend the physicist, every point is the center, from that point's frame of reference. (I should point out, of course, that he's a relativist, rather than dealing too much with quantum scales)

    --


    -1, "1337" speak