Slashdot Mirror
Microsoft Taking Over the BIOS
dtjohnson writes "According to this story,
Microsoft has entered into an agreement with BIOS maker Phoenix
Technologies to integrate the BIOS with Windows. This has the
potential to turn PCs into Windows-only machines and also could result
in widespread incorporation of Digital Rights Management (DRM)
technology into new PCs. It looks like Microsoft is beginning to
flex their marketplace monopoly muscles again, after taking a couple of
years off."
Say hello to Linux on PPC. Or, for that matter, some BSD flavor on PPC. Speaking of BSD, there's always the Mac OSX option.
Apple uses Open Firmware, the same as Sun, possibly IBM, and others. You can easily boot Linux on a Mac if you want.
It is different. Apple sells the hardware, too. Microsoft is trying to shift the rest of the industry by locking up the current "open" hardware that is currently available.
Apple has no BIOS on a chip anyware. Yes, there's Open Firmware, which is an open standard -- you're NOT locked into any type of control by Apple. You can run Linux on them. You have full control. THAT'S how it's different than Apple.
Oh, you mean the old "Apple ROMs"? That's been ancient history for at least four years, maybe more. There's no more Mac ToolBox on ROM -- it's all loaded into memory from the hard drive.
I am very, very concerned about this move. I run Linux on my Intel box with the current motherboard. Anyone got a good supply of fast PPC motherboards? I could do Linux that way, I guess....
--Jim (me)
Could you explain to me exactly who the lot of companies are? It is my belief that corporations as a whole will either not care at all or will regard this as a very good and important feature that will allow their operating system of choice(Windows) to operate more reliably and securely thanks to DRM and Trusted Computing blah blah blah
Most corporations will welcome this with open arms.
Years of lobby work finally pay off - in the USA like in Europe.
Is there a definitive point in time, a single event that started this all?
DRM this, RIAA that, MPAA my freakin head is spinning. When did DRM become so damn vital to companies like these? Was it napster that freaked everyone?
Because of all this crap, A friends ISP got shut down because someone complained to his upstream provider that one of his users was sharing software, no warning, no proof, no due process...crazy.
I spend $6000 on an HDTV last year that is already obsolete because it doesnt have the flavor of the month DVI copyrite protection connector. Hey man, check out this bad ass new DVD player that upconverts to 1080i, oh what you dont have DVI with HDCP, oh im sorry youre fucked. We had the 15pin RGB connector, then component video, then firewire, then DVI, then DVI with HDCP, and now we have HDMI. make up your freakin minds.
Or how about a cd I bought that would play in my high end REGA Jupiter cd player because it had copywrite protection.
I upgraded my video card and had to reactivate Windows XP on my workstation at work. What a pain in the a$$ I paid for the windows license.
This shit makes physically ill to the point where I want to start firebombing some of these companies.
I obviously blame these corporations and industry groups, but what started it all? Why are they so convinced that anyone using a computer is out to ruin them.
Why am I being affected by all this crap, I dont fileshare, I dont rip CDs for friend, I dont steal cable. Im a somewhat honest consumer, why am I getting nailed with all this crap that really isnt going to make ANY dent in actual piracy?
Are you listening to me Microsoft, RIAA, MPAA, Sony, Adobe, Disney and all you other fuckers. You cant stop piracy, all youre doing is driving me freakin nutts, and Im your paying customer!!!
For DRM to have any measure of success, both hardware and software must be closely joined. A software only DRM solution will fail due to the ability to take the storage media to another software (OS). A hardware DRM solution would work, but updating for new file formats would allow a back-door for hackers.
Taking over the BIOS should be just one step toward implementing a total DRM solution. The next step is securing storage media - maybe a 'smart' drive that handles file interaction for the OS and whose internals are hidden (for example - OS/user doesn't need to know/control format on drive).
Apple is a monopoly only to those who wish to purchase Apple products (which is a single-digit segment of the market). Microsoft, on the other hand, has been found in numerous courts to be a monopoly on the desktop system market and has been found to utilize illegal methods to enforce such a monopoly. A marriage of hardware to the OS should be illegal in such a circumstance (lack or perceived lack of choice for the consumers).
In short, your comparison is one of "Apples and oranges" and is therefore invalid.
I have something in common with Stephen Hawking...
Of course. Because this Justice Department has shown itself to be the ever-vigilant foe of monopolies, Microsoft in particular. It only took a six-year, multimillion dollar lawsuit among a dozen states and the federal government to end up causing Microsoft to do exactly nothing...
Don't look to the DoJ to fix these wrongs -- Microsoft has the $$.
The Mongrel Dogs Who Teach
Oh, yeah, I'm sure Dell and HP and Gateway and all the rest are going to LOVE a requirement to pay a Phoenix tax as well as the Microsoft tax! Not to mention what AMI and Award will think of this.
If all this should have a reason, we would be the last to know.
[...]
have the option of allowing users to turn it off.
Unless *large number* of users do this, it won't help. Because what will happen is that more and more you will find media that refuses to run unless you have it turned on, and so your choice will be to leave it turned on, or never display any media again. And no amount of explaining the situation to the public will ever work. You'll say, "This sucks because it means I have to run only approved Windows software and I don't even want to run Windows" - and people will hear "Hi, I'm into piracy." And in the battle of public opinion, you can't beat the 500 pound elephant willing to lie.
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
The BIOS OS integration on the Mac has always been a thing of beauty, and it makes sense that M$ would (after 20 years) start to catch up by now.
Except Apple sells PCs and Microsoft doesn't. Apple also used a customized version of OpenFirmware (stripped down version of Sun's OF, IIRC), while Microsoft is making it's own BIOS. Microsoft isn't catching up, they're trying to drag the whole PC market into their realm of control.
Sure they do. Boot into OS9 lately?
Arguably, they fuck fewer people when they do this stuff, but so far MS hasn't prevented dick and Apple not only prevents you from booting their OS on other machines, but they prevent you from booting older OSes on some of their newer machines. They dicked with BeOS until the bitter end.
Of all the things to try and prop Apple up as better. MS hasn't even done anything, and they're already convicted of what Apple has done for years, while you zealots sing Apple's praises.
Ah, I may have misread.
:)
However, I think we'd be at least 5-7 years, and more likely 10 years, from that happening. It certianly won't be part of the Longhorn release. Here's my reasoning:
1) The Longhorn release is nearly to the Beta stage, and we are likely more then a year off from seeing the first motherboards with this particular type of BIOS.
2) Even if they wanted to try and lock people down into "You can only use Windows if you use MS-BIOS," there's still going to be the problem of backwards compatibility. Historically, Microsoft has wanted to push out OS upgrades to as many people as possible as quickly as possible. This means that it needs to be able to run on hardware manufactured during the lifetime of the previous incarnation of windows, if not the last two incarnations. For example, you can run Windows XP on hardware that ran Windows 98 SE, Windows ME, and Windows 2000...You may not be terribly happy with it, but you can do it.
Yeah, there are ways around both of those, and they aren't the only reasons why I don't think we'll see that tight of required integration anytime soon.
However, I do think now is the time to start looking at alternitives. LinuxBIOS is an option, however, it has quite a bit of work to go, and it doesn't have the corporate backing to make it happen that Phoenix and Microsoft can lever behind this.
Much like with DRM, I am interested to see where this will go, and am avidly watching for more news, but until there are some more definate answers, that's all I'm going to do. I'm a network engineer. I don't have the technical skills to design an alternate technology, nor am I in a position where I can affect things politically (other then writing to my representives). I will continue to watch, learn, and comment where appropriate.
Unless/until Microsoft pulls a Microsoft and switches vendors.
If all this should have a reason, we would be the last to know.
Maybe a few years ago, this would be frightening, but as it stands, it is far too late to fear the PC industry being locked into Windows. Even if you think the home user base is unimportant, IBM, Dell, HPaq, Sun, Racksaver, and others have a significant investment in Linux in particular, and even if MS managed to get all the current independent motherboard companies on board for this, most any of those players would easily overcome it to keep the Linux revenue stream going.
You have Clustering, server farms, web hosting, and a not so insignificant workstation and desktop market that is heavily leaning in the direction of linux (dominating the first three, and making very serious inroads into workstations and power user desktops). That's a whole lot of revenue for the likes of the big companies to just shrug and give up at Microsoft's whim.
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
One only has to wonder how long before TCPA chip will refuse to load Linux BIOS loading only "trusted" Windows BIOS which will of course never load "untrusted" GNU OS. Truely scary perspective especially considering the fact that back in 1997 we all thought The Right to Read was a huge overexeggaration. I think it is time to renew my EFF membership. I believe everyone should do that instead of just complaining on Slashdot.
Sincerely,
Pan Tarhei Hosé, PhD.
"Homo sum et cogito ergo odi profanum vulgus et libido."
This in turn means that Dell et al will either
Indeed. And if MS emulated this all you would have to do to run Linux would be. . .
Buy a Windows license, install it (making much HD space "worthless"), and boot it (making you need to comply with their EULA).
Cool. Who woulda thunk that it would be Microsoft who discovered the way to make big bucks from Linux?
Do you mind if I sit this one out?
KFG
Yeah, DRM will be optional for a while. But when 90% of users are switched over to Windows2007, then banks will start to require DRM enabled computers to do your financial transactions over the web (balance transfers, checking the mortage status, etc.). Then the Powers-That-Be(TM) will decide that in order to crack down on terrorists, all on-line banking transactions will have to use a computer with DRM (and it just so happens that all transactions will also be simulatneously logged on IRS computers). Then on-line retailers will get in the act. First the Amazon's and E-Bay's will start to require it to reduce fraud. Then the banks will stiff-arm *all* merchants to only allow credit card transactions from DRM enabled machines. Of course on-line bill paying will go the same way. And now since the majority of people have these computers, other web-site operators will start to think "What kind of 'hacker' is visiting my site without a properly 'secured' browser? And what kind of data mining can I do now that I have a guarenteed identity behind the computer that I can sell to someone else!" So as more companies start to jump on the bandwagon, Grandma complains, "Some ladies in my knitting circle can't see my blog!" So the blogging software companies have to also incorporate DRM. Finally, the only people left using non DRM computer will be linux enthusiasts and criminals/terrorists. And since these two groups are about equal in size it'll be about a 50% chance that any web-surfer using a non-DRM computer is a criminal. Finally, DRM will be mandated by law and all objectors will be (secretly) rounded up and quitely disposed of (via the Patriot VI Act). So I know that I sleep sound at night knowing that DRM is *optional*.
I'm a PC maker, MS comes to me with deals.
***MS gives a discount if they only install Windows on all their machines and refuses to sell any without OS's on them** Ok, I can deal with that, there aren't any alternatives right now and if they come up in the future, we can always renegotiate.
(Competition is completly decimated as all the large manufacturers do this)
*Bigger discount if you don't include the CD or documentation.* Sounds good to me.
(More money for redmond.)
*We'll also give you a discount on microsoft brand keyboards and mice which you can rebrand and we'll sell them to you for cheaper than you normally make them. We'll also give you a great discount on office if you promise not to carry anything else* Sounds good.
(Gets your company locked into microsoft products even more.)
*All of your machines require this BIOS in order to run windows, we'll give you another discount if you install them.* Sure, I can go with that, more money for me, w00p. I can always pull out of the agreement later.
(More lockin to windows products, now you've got to change your company somewhat in order to throw them in. At first it's inexpensive, they give a discount, and after a year or 3, they jack up the prices)
*Windows now requires that you use these cheap, fritz chipped celeron processors.* Sure, I spose I can since all my stuff is based off of windows anyway and at this point changing my company will cost millions.
(Microsoft now implements DRM on computers and a lot of bullshit like changing the hardware config requires a call-in to microsoft, opening your files from a different OS is more difficult, etc.)
*Windows will only work with windows-based chipsets, which only we sell and lisence now, they're cheaper than other motherboards.* Er..ok...sure I guess. Makes sense, and the corperate people like it so ok.
(At this point, microsoft will eliminate the motherboard market, giving them control over everything prettymuch. Processers can be dealt with, but motherboards can't. They at this point start eliminating manufacturers 1 by 1, accusing them of bogus bullshit and infringing on their patents on the motherboards now proprietary buses)
*The motherboards can now only run microsoft parts in a microsoft case. You need to buy microsoft parts and microsoft cases, but unfortunatly, they'll cost you 5 times as much as it costs us.) Fsck...where's linux? Where's unlocked fritz'd processors? Motherboard manufacturers? Help meee...
(Microsoft now has complete control over the PC market. And since they have so much more control, they become even more powerful and eventually take control over world goverments since windows is running on everything. They use blackops to take over the goverment using nazi-like tactics, accept they just assassinate anyone who they don't like and twist the media their own uses)
Hackers, at this point, being driven far underground and forced to be a very militant breed (think gattica), exploit bugs in the now somewhat secure Microsoft windows systems which are a modified version of linux in order to eat and live and help their communities. The roaming poor people, unable to find food or shelter and thrown out into the streets because all of the manufacturing and distrobution is done by robots and machines(Think of all the chain stores becoming automated), turn to these hackers for help and education. The black market thrives throughout an underground wireless network which uses wireless devices long ago banned by the goverment. Hackers are persecuted as is thought crime.
The normal people live as slaves in archeologies and are never allowed to go outside but are terrified of all the violent evil people who regularily kill cops and hurt people, a war is regularily burning overseas with china or some other distant country. In 2-3 generations, the archeologies have become full of loyal sheep, while the hackers have become extremly hard
Candy-Coated Knowledge
"Then again, some upstart company may do the same to Phoenix as they did to IBM when they 'made' BIOS :-)"
One Problem with that, the DMCA. If the DMCA would have existed 20 Years ago, IBM would have sued Phoenix & Compaq under the DMCA, and PCs today would still cost over $5000, because IBM would be the only PC manufacturer around. In other words, if someone reverse Engineers the new M$ BIOS, they would have Phoenix & Microsoft suing them under the DMCA.
I can see all the thick-skulled cops now..
"Sonny, you clearly circumvented technological security mechanisms by using illegal software (MS didn't give it a run-license) to install Linux. You clearly broke the law and now it's federal pound-me-in-the-ass prison for you. Don't drop the soap, sucker! I despise scum like you."
I hope people will keep in mind what legislation of technology does when they whine to their congressmen about spam. When you beg the government to make certain emails illegal, they have to define "illegal email". Now are you sure you would like the US Congress to define "illegal email" _for you_?
"Most of slashdot is disillusioned, thinking windows is 100% shitty."
There's some truth to that. I'm sitting here using Windows 2000, but most of the Slashdotters stopped using Windows back at 95 or 98. Those OS's were 100% shitty. I will never defend either of them (or ME) because they really were incredibly unstable.
Then the switch to Linux happens, and nobody has sat down and used Windows 2000. So they have no idea that the stability is a hell of a lot greater (it's based on NT instead of DOS) or that work can actually be done about it.
I can't say I blame a lot of the peeps here who think the BSOD jokes are funny. I wish they'd understand that Windows development didn't suddenly stop in 1998, though.
"Derp de derp."
We'll still be able to hack away on our (ever increasingly) obsolete computers.
Also, take a look at the 8-bit computer enthusiasts. These guys know every inch of their 8-bit computers, and can make them sing. You can probably build one from scratch from common chip parts. The 80886? (err...i'm drunk) Assembly is out there forever, and we can always program on that.
My point is, that even though our dual 3 GHz machines will become obsolete by the time your prediction comes true, we can always hobble along on our own computers. What it takes engineers at Intel to make today, they'll be teaching high schoolers in 20 years. (see 8-bit paragraph above)
Due to saving money for a house, I have been hobbling along on my 400mhz AMD computer since I built it in '98. Can't play the new games on it, but I can still rip & encode [my] CD's and DVD movies on it. Just what the RIAA and MPAA wouldn't want me to do today.
All I'm saying is that your prediction of comptuer armageddon isn't going to happen so quickly or overnight. Blu-ray discs are coming out 'real-soon-now' for the last 2 years. Your 3 years? 5 years? is probably more like 8 years, 10 years. Scared of the BIOS market being stolen by M$? I envision Open-BIOS becoming a reality. Chip burners are becoming cheaper and more common. We can make our own. Or know someone that does. Also marketplace ca$h is what's going to drive all this. China/Malaysia pirate capital of the world will be the last place that moves to DRM. They'll continue to fill the market with non-DRM bios because there WILL be a market for that for a while. Thus add another 2-3 years to your armaggedon date.
Why are there only 19 people folding@home for slashdot?
My stance is: they have the right to do this, and they have the ability to do this, but the marketplace, if enlightened to the dangers, won't allow them to succeed with it.
I agree with your opinion, somewhat. The only problem is the average computer user doesn't know what a BIOS is, or what DRM means, and quite frankly most of them don't even care. They just want to make sure they can run Windows and access the internet.
The only way for things to really change is for the common person to find out that they can get a better (or at least as good) operating system for free! But that probably won't happen until after everybody stops opening email atatchments and firewalls their system.
Have you tried Linux yet?
First software, I believe. It's been getting more and more important for companies to protect their products. First came CD keys for online play. People came up with CD key generators.
Uh first came online CD keys? Try again. Floppys with bad sectors (King's Quest anyone), hardware dongles, serial numbers, sheets printed in unreasonable colors, I've got a full binder of stuff you needed to run a game in the old days. In fact, the scaling back to a simple CD key is because they finally figured out it wasn't effective and it pissed off your legitimate customers.
I use Daemon Tools also on my own, legitimately purchased CDs. If necessary I get the required crack so I don't have to look for the damn CD (if you knew my room, you wouldn't question why). Personally I see it as the last left-over of a time past. True central online services like MMORPGs or the UT2003 central server require CD keys, but for those I consider it part of the ToS for connecting to them, not a copy protection, at least not an effective one.
I recently went back to Windows 2000 from XP. Why? Because when I copied my XP installation from my 120GB disk to my new 160GB disk, XP freaked totally and mentally. Couldn't get to a reactivation screen, nothing. Wouldn't allow me to install over either, just wierd errors. I can pretty safely say, it'll be a cold day in hell before XP or any future XP-line OS ends up on my disk ever again. By the time Windows 2000 is EoL'd, it'll be Linux. Tried using the Red Hat server in the corner as desktop, now if only I didn't miss my Windows apps that much...
Morale is: Pirates will manage to pirate it. Do not piss off your customers in the futile process.
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
This might not be as bad as it sounds. Within a few years, Linux will be running on many large business and government systems around the world. We may be MS-centric here in the US, but the rest of the world is looking at alternatives.
Someone will have to supply the hardware of the future to these new Linux users. There will be plenty of businesses who will cater to the non MS users of the world, and if you think Asia and India, someday they may outnumber the Windows users.
There is nothing so powerful as an idea whose time has come.
I still favor Linux over Windows when it comes to stability, but there are several other facets of the Windows operation system and Microsoft philosophy that turn me (and likely other Slashdotters) off. First, security. I don't like my browser or mail client doing things I'm not explicitly aware of. I cannot use Windows with a clear conscience because of IE's and Outlook's persistent security failures. Add in IIS for Windows incarnations with IIS installed an running. This is compounded by the fact that these pieces of software cannot be uninstalled. I don't really care about the monopoly angle with the bundling of IE/Outlook. Linux distros "bundle" similar items if not more which I like. The difference is that if someone finds a bug in Mozilla that puts me or my network at risk, I can wipe it clean from my hard drive and fall back on alternative software packages.
Cost is another obvious difference, but one that I think will eventually catch up to Microsoft more than any antitrust case or business practice. It's evolution, baby. The personal computer is still a wonderful, versatile thing. I use it to write, program, listen to music, watch movies, capture/edit/burn digital video, and game. But it isn't a new concept on which a business can build on and dominate market share any more. There are a growing number of open source software projects that meet or even exceed their commercial competitors capabilities. OpenOffice, Mozilla, and Apache to name a few. There's three software projects right there that are relevant to the corporate world's preoccupation with information technology.
Commercial software that meets a need or niche that open source solutions cannot fill is going the way of the dinosaurs. They had their chance, but it's not the way I see software evolving. Why depend on a single commercial source for solutions when you can support a core group of developers in producing a piece of software that everyone can benefit from?
I don't so much find Windows to be inferior. It's just that Linux and the canon of open source software built upon it make so much more sense financially, socially, and from an engineering standpoint.