Posted by
CowboyNeal
on from the eye-to-the-future dept.
newdaemon writes "Fortune
has a candid
interview
with Bill Joy about what he plans to do after leaving Sun and his opinions on many other topics, including his strong dislike of the C programming language and how the internet could evolve to take care of the problem of spam and viruses."
Java is only one of the languages that completely prevent stuff like buffer overrun exploits etc. In fact, pretty much every single language except C and C++ do.
He is correct, but it's really not all the feasable in the real world. For all the people that say programmers should be grossly ineffecient, and let the newer processors take up the slack, there are thousands of companies that can't get their important programs to run fast enough, even after spending millions on computer hardware... Making everything in Java is only going to make the situation a couple orders of magnitude worse.
If Sun, or someone else, would come along and modify C slightly by removing unsafe functions, and providing alternatives, you could have the best of both, while not having to completely rewrite all the old code.
Except that's wrong. Running Hello World involves booting up what is, in effect, an entire operating system (the Java VM, with virtual memory, threading, everything, the works).
Ok, here's an experiment:
a) run Hello World in Java
b) run Hello World in C (including booting up Linux)
Which one is faster?:-)
--
-WolfWithoutAClause
"Gravity is only a theory, not a fact!"
Idiot or Liar?
by
Anonymous Coward
·
· Score: 5, Insightful
Again, because that program is written in C, it's quite easy to design a virus to go through your e-mail address book and broadcast spam to all the people you know.
The problem with Outlook isn't "C," the problem with outlook is Javascript, VBScript, and Windows Scripting Host, which are PRECISELY the sorts of high-level languages [and their interpreters] that this little terd is advocating.
Or is he just a common liar? I dunno - you be the judge.
Re:Idiot or Liar?
by
sir_cello
·
· Score: 5, Informative
You're wrong as well.
The issue isn't with the programming language _per se_. Obviously some programming languages are more dangerous then others. Obviously some programmers are worse than others.
The issue is with secure and contained execution environments. Properly "jailing" software (whether a process in an operating system, or a thread and window box on a preview pane in Outlook) is the real answer. Engineering has long known that compartmentalisation is key to minimising risk and impact. Operating systems are getting better at doing it. Programming languages are gradually working towards it.
You can have all of the aforementioned and current problems with buffer overflows, language defects, etc: but if the impact is limited (say, to a display pane in Outlook) then the worst that can happen is psychological damage, nothing more. From one point of view, the preview pane should only be doing that: showing me a preview - it shouldn't be granting access to resources around it.
I think that one of the key technologies that Java brought to the computing landscape was the concept of a secure machine (JVM) for a programming language (at a lower granuality than for a monolithic operating system). Argue as much as you like about how succesfull this was (I do remember much debate and technical attention given to it in the early days of Java), but the concept is far more important than the incremental language innovations in Java (i.e. a next-generation SmallTalk or C++).
Give the guy some credit - he's done some very useful technical work - and Java will be one of the technologies in the timeline of the development of computer history. Even if Java itself wasn't succesfull, it's been an interesting experiment and a lot of learning has come out of it.
I recommend this paper as a good read on the bus, just so you can appreciate the technical innovations surrounding the language.
http://www.jot.fm/issues/issue_2003_09/column3 ps. It's obvious he's still pulling the Sun line, but what do you expect ? He put a lot of effort and passion into Sun's technical direction - only a fool would think he's going to drop that overnight.
But I'd feel more respect for his comments if he hadn't said
>so many companies use Microsoft Outlook for reading e-mail. Again, because that program is written in C, it's quite easy to design a virus to go through your e-mail address book and broadcast spam to all the people you know. As soon as your company starts using Outlook, you can see
Outlook's scriptability has nothing to do with its being written in C++.
Outlook's UI for attachment handling has nothing to do with its being written in C++.
Outlook's historical willingness to do dangerous things driven by HTML code in the preview pane has nothing to so with its being written in C++.
The problems Joy mentioned, of email forwarding itself to everyone in the address book, are not accidental buffer overflows. They're the malicious use of features intentionally designed into the program.
Java : C :: Emacs : vi
by
achurch
·
· Score: 4, Insightful
Am I the only one getting tired of the "my language is better than your language" holy wars? Yes, Java can do some things by default that C can't, by default--buffer overflow checks, for example--but that doesn't make it necessarily "better". One could argue that Java's way of checking everything for you makes programmers lazy, and more likely to make mistakes that Java can't catch--cross-scripting holes, for example.
In the end, an experienced C programmer can get the same job done with the same quality in C as an experienced Java program can in Java, and that ought to be good enough for anybody.
Re:Java : C :: Emacs : vi
by
jemfinch
·
· Score: 5, Insightful
In the end, an experienced C programmer can get the same job done with the same quality in C as an experienced Java program can in Java, and that ought to be good enough for anybody.
This simply isn't the case.
Studies have shown (if you're interested, the relevant studies are referenced in "Code Complete" by Steve McConnell) that programmers are capable of writing approximately the same number of lines of code per unit of time in whatever language they program in. Whether it's C, Java, or Sparc Assembler, they'll write pretty much the same number of lines of code in day.
The catch, however, is the expressivity of the languages used. A thousand lines of C will certainly "do more" than the same number of lines of Sparc assembler. Likewise (though arguably not on the same scale), a thousand lines of Java will certainly "do more" than the same number of lines of C. So disregarding errors for the moment, programmers are more productive in a higher level language like Java than they are in C or Sparc assembler.
Now, as far as errors go: it's true that experienced programmers (in whatever language) will make fewer mistakes than less experienced programmers. But they're still human, and even if you're Donald Knuth himself, you're still going to make mistakes. The fact is that mistakes in C are far more costly than mistakes in Java. You can have off-by-one errors in both languages. In Java, however, your program will raise an out of bounds exception and, at worst, halt. In C, such a mistake could easily lead to a buffer overflow security flaw that can be exploited for elevated privilege. The same error in C and in Java is far more costly in C than in Java.
With even higher level languages, entire classes of mistakes cannot even exist, but I don't have time to go into the advantages of such languages like SML or Haskell.
Programmers no matter how experienced, are going to make mistakes. What matters is how costly those mistakes are. And they cost a whole lot more in C than in Java.
Re:Java : C :: Emacs : vi
by
Raffaello
·
· Score: 4, Interesting
The whole Turing completeness argument is a straw man. If it were really true, we'd all still be coding individual 1s and 0s, since, after all, "You can do the same thing in one language that you can in any other."
The real issue is which language is more expressive. Since I can accomplish any task with any of the dozens of Turing complete languages, which language lets me accomplish the task at hand in the fewest lines of code?
The answer may vary from task to task, but if the task includes the requirement that the finished product be secure, then C loses, because it doesn't protect against one of the most common sorts of attack at the language level, buffer overruns. Common Lisp and Java do. To have this same sort of protection in C, I'd have to write all the additional lines necessary to implement my own runtime to prevent direct access to memory. Hey! I've just re-implemented *part* of Common Lisp, or *part* of Java.
Thus we come to Greenspun's 10th law of programming:
"Any sufficiently complicated C or Fortran program contains an ad-hoc, informally-specified, bug-ridden, slow implementation of half of Common Lisp."
You wrote: "Oh well, I guess that's what makes people so interesting. The plethora of personalities. Doesn't mean he's right, though." Bill Joy's opinion that C is a really dangerous language isn't a quirk of his personality. It's an evaluation based on decades of experience as a pioneer in the computer industry, and a deep understanding of the fact that different languages really are better or worse.
Classic Bill Joy
by
Timesprout
·
· Score: 4, Insightful
Some wonderful conceptualisations and insights into technology closely followed by statements that make you wonder if Bill is actually in the same universe as us, nevermind on the same planet.
Anyway thanks for Java, its a fantastic development language, please stop telling us we are going to have/need JINI in every toaster, lightfitting and piece of cutlery we own and best of luck for the future.
-- Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth What truth? There is no dupe
One of the other tasks the article metions Joy working on is a long awaited rewrite of vi to include a slick Java Swing GUI interface and the migration away from moded operation to Ctrl key sequences.
According to Joy, "The Control key wasn't available when I wrote vi in the 70's. Back then it was the cent symbol key (you know, that little "c" with the line through it?). So we had to go with this kludgy insert mode thing that just, well, rather sucks."
Bill Joy Outsourced To India
by
Baldrson
·
· Score: 4, Funny
I think they are just side-stepping the real news which is that Sun outsourced Bill Joy. The new Bill Joy is working for 1/10 the rate and lives in Punjab.
Slashdot Mirror
Java is only one of the languages that completely prevent stuff like buffer overrun exploits etc. In fact, pretty much every single language except C and C++ do.
He is correct, but it's really not all the feasable in the real world. For all the people that say programmers should be grossly ineffecient, and let the newer processors take up the slack, there are thousands of companies that can't get their important programs to run fast enough, even after spending millions on computer hardware... Making everything in Java is only going to make the situation a couple orders of magnitude worse.
If Sun, or someone else, would come along and modify C slightly by removing unsafe functions, and providing alternatives, you could have the best of both, while not having to completely rewrite all the old code.
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
Bill Joy could join Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Neptune or Pluto.
...)
(Oddly enough, there isn't a company that bears the name of the missing planet you're thinking of
"A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
Ok, here's an experiment:
a) run Hello World in Java
b) run Hello World in C (including booting up Linux)
Which one is faster? :-)
-WolfWithoutAClause
"Gravity is only a theory, not a fact!"Again, because that program is written in C, it's quite easy to design a virus to go through your e-mail address book and broadcast spam to all the people you know.
The problem with Outlook isn't "C," the problem with outlook is Javascript, VBScript, and Windows Scripting Host, which are PRECISELY the sorts of high-level languages [and their interpreters] that this little terd is advocating.
Or is he just a common liar? I dunno - you be the judge.
But I'd feel more respect for his comments if he hadn't said
>so many companies use Microsoft Outlook for reading e-mail. Again, because that program is written in C, it's quite easy to design a virus to go through your e-mail address book and broadcast spam to all the people you know. As soon as your company starts using Outlook, you can see
Outlook's scriptability has nothing to do with its being written in C++.
Outlook's UI for attachment handling has nothing to do with its being written in C++.
Outlook's historical willingness to do dangerous things driven by HTML code in the preview pane has nothing to so with its being written in C++.
The problems Joy mentioned, of email forwarding itself to everyone in the address book, are not accidental buffer overflows. They're the malicious use of features intentionally designed into the program.
Am I the only one getting tired of the "my language is better than your language" holy wars? Yes, Java can do some things by default that C can't, by default--buffer overflow checks, for example--but that doesn't make it necessarily "better". One could argue that Java's way of checking everything for you makes programmers lazy, and more likely to make mistakes that Java can't catch--cross-scripting holes, for example.
In the end, an experienced C programmer can get the same job done with the same quality in C as an experienced Java program can in Java, and that ought to be good enough for anybody.
Some wonderful conceptualisations and insights into technology closely followed by statements that make you wonder if Bill is actually in the same universe as us, nevermind on the same planet.
Anyway thanks for Java, its a fantastic development language, please stop telling us we are going to have/need JINI in every toaster, lightfitting and piece of cutlery we own and best of luck for the future.
Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth
What truth?
There is no dupe
One of the other tasks the article metions Joy working on is a long awaited rewrite of vi to include a slick Java Swing GUI interface and the migration away from moded operation to Ctrl key sequences.
According to Joy, "The Control key wasn't available when I wrote vi in the 70's. Back then it was the cent symbol key (you know, that little "c" with the line through it?). So we had to go with this kludgy insert mode thing that just, well, rather sucks."
I think they are just side-stepping the real news which is that Sun outsourced Bill Joy. The new Bill Joy is working for 1/10 the rate and lives in Punjab.
Seastead this.
Bonus points for using the word "fuck" twice and "shit" once, but being thoughtful enough to ambiguously asterisk out the 'e' in "circle-jerk".